SInGAPORE_AIR
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Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:19 pm

A very interesting and heated article from the wonderful Seattle PI

----
Aerospace Notebook: Jet rivalry spurs high-flying trash talk

By JAMES WALLACE
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER

Archrivals Airbus and The Boeing Co. are no strangers to the art of trash talking.

Boeing has not been at all shy about bad-mouthing the capabilities of the A380, the Airbus superjumbo that in 2006 will supplant Boeing's 747 as the world's biggest commercial jetliner.

And last year, an Airbus executive wasted no time, during a speech in Seattle, trashing Boeing's planned 7E7 Dreamliner. Adam Brown, vice president of marketing for Airbus, displayed chart after chart showing why the Boeing plane, not available until 2008, would be no better than the A330-200, the Airbus jet that is already in service and winning order battles at Boeing's expense.

So it should come as no surprise that Boeing would take aim at the A340-500, the world's longest-range jetliner. The Airbus plane got a ton of attention last week when Singapore Airlines began operating the jet on the longest non-stop commercial jetliner route ever -- more than 18 hours from Los Angeles to Singapore.

----

Much more at http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/160121_air11.html

Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
N754PR
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:28 pm

OK, lets say I'm a airline CEO and have taken all this in and now I want to order 10 772LR for for my new airline starting in JAN 05'.

Can you have the planes for me Boeing? ........... NO!!

Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
behramjee
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:31 pm

Even if u ordered 10 new A 345s, they wouldnt be ready for 2-3 years and there arent even 10 in the market at the current time for u to even lease out so your arguement when it comes to immediate availability bears no fruit unless u plan to start operations by 2008-09!!!
 
N754PR
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:33 pm

I'm SURE you can get A345's before the first 772LR is available.
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
airxliban
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:51 pm

it didnt really get that much publicity. It hasn't even been a number 1 picture on airliners.net. Just today it was a lowly #2...and not even on the first day!

we'll see what happens with the A380 and 7E7.

in my opinion...it is about time for a revolution in the commercial aviation industry.

we really haven't had a major major major event in subsonic commercial travel since the jet engine was introduced. we have had major technological advances and increases in range, efficiency, comfort, etc etc but we haven't improved on speed (other than concorde). Instead of concentrating on making super jumbos, i think that airbus and boeing should concentrate on making supersonic transportation available at a cost the airlines can swallow.

not that this is any small feat of course. i doubt that i could do it.

dont even know why i said all that.

goodnight all
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
Ivo
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:53 pm

Behramjee,

You can start with 2 Air Canada A340-500 !!!


Ivo
 
777ER
Crew
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:57 pm

N754pr

If you ordered 10 new A345s would you be able to afford to buy them yourself? If you could then you would be able to have them when ur new airline starts flying, but if you can't afford to buy them yourself then you would have to lease them and are there any leasing companys that have ordered any A345s that would let you lease them when you start operations?
 
MD-11 forever
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:58 pm

Interesting statement from the article:

"Tim Clark, president of Emirates, said in a recent interview that the A340-500 has exceeded his expectations."

Long way to go Boeing........

Cheers, Thomas
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:59 pm

You're actually right on Airx. Development in aviation has become absolutely boring. There's a lot of talk, little willingness to take action. Instead, the powers that be would rather sit around and quibble over minor performance differences. Does the 777LR beat out the A345? Of course - but is it really that significant? No. In the end we're talking about a few thousand pounds of fuel, a couple hundred nautical miles here or there and a .02 difference in mach number. Wow....

Get off your asses Airbus and Boeing - it's time to take things to the next stage already. Give us improvements in the interim like the 747 Advanced and A380 - but seriously. Enough of this 18 hours across the ocean bullshit - we can and should be doing much better. Figure it out.

If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
TSV
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Wed Feb 11, 2004 6:05 pm

"You can start with 2 Air Canada A340-500 !!!"

I thought they were going to Emirates?
"I told you I was ill ..." Spike Milligan
 
FA4UA
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Wed Feb 11, 2004 6:07 pm

I think one hurdle Boeing will face, besides all the bad ink from Airbus, is only offering the 772LR with just the GE engines. As much as I'd like to see UA replace all our 744's someday with the 772LR, I know it's doubtful since there is only the GE option for the engines.

FA4UA
The debate continues... Starwood or Hyatt... which is better
 
donder10
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Wed Feb 11, 2004 6:07 pm

Does the 777LR beat out the A345? Of course - but is it really that significant? No. In the end we're talking about a few thousand pounds of fuel, a couple hundred nautical miles here or there and a .02 difference in mach number. Wow....

But given that commercial aviation has such waifer thin margins it can make a big difference!
 
Udo
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Wed Feb 11, 2004 6:18 pm

Who would start a nonstop SYD-LHR for just 57 passengers per flight? What a dumb argumentation...well done Boeing, new score A vs B in terms of blabla: 12:12. Who's scoring next?

That propaganda makes me  Yawn


Regards
Udo


Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
Udo
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Wed Feb 11, 2004 6:25 pm

I think the GE exclusivity for the B777 is quite the same as the RR exclusivity for the A340-500/600. No advantage for either model here.
At the end, airlines will have to leave their old engine ties. JAL and ANA already have switched (as old PW fans), Lufthansa has (old GE friend), Emirates has (old RR fans).
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:14 pm

ANA has operated GEs since choosing the CF6-50 on the 742 in the 70s. They operate GEs on the 762, 763, 744 and 744D. They only went PW on the 777s.

JAL, on the other hand, is a PW loyalist and didn't see GEs in service until the 773.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Udo
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:22 pm

Aaron,

I know ANA has GE on most of its fleet, but I was referring to the B777 which all Japanese airlines (including JAS) once ordered with PW.

I must correct you with JAL. First of all their regular (non-ER) B773 is eqipped with PW engines, the B772ER was their first GE-powered B777. And their whole B744 fleet is eqipped with GE (since 1990), so is the new B763ER.


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Wed Feb 11, 2004 8:39 pm

Here is a thought. 7E7 stretch, with 250 passengers (3 class) is advertised as a 8300 nautical mile airplane. Can that make the singapore lax run?

I
 
osteogenesis
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Wed Feb 11, 2004 8:40 pm

And Airbus did it first that gives them a huge advantage. Boeing has no argument against this. And it shows that Airbus is reacting quicker. And in business many times this is what makes the difference.
 
toBEYwithMEA
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Wed Feb 11, 2004 9:25 pm

Boeing is a classic aircraft maker since the 40's.
I respect boeing, But I'm an Airbus fan. I know that airbus is new and fresh and does not have the kind of history as boeing.
BUt all airbus jets have come with a boom and with Huge orders. All have made a mark in the world, like boeing's
Its dumb to insult the A345 because it has capabilites that no boeing Aircraft has
To me Airbus beats boeing. With or Without the A340-500
toBEYwithMEAon_aA345
MEA FLYING HIGH AND RETURING TO IT FORMER GLORY!
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Wed Feb 11, 2004 9:36 pm

Hey ToBeywithMEA...

Is Airbus Christian or Muslem? LOL
 
col
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Wed Feb 11, 2004 10:49 pm

Stupid, Stupid. This is exactly why Boeing go themselves into trouble before with their we know better then anyone mind set. Rob Faye needs to put down his Boeing made charts and listen to SQ and Emirates. You do not bad mouth a product which two of your best customers are using successfully, you just look like an idiot and that looks bad on your company. Thought Boeing were becoming smarter obviously NOT.
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Wed Feb 11, 2004 10:54 pm

N754pr:


OK, lets say I'm a airline CEO and have taken all this in and now I want to order 10 772LR for for my new airline starting in JAN 05'.

Can you have the planes for me Boeing? ........... NO!!


So, you must think waiting an extra one or two years is a big deal for many airlines, right? If that's true, wouldn't you think the MD-11 should have been the front runner instead of being number 3 in the three-horse race against the 330/340 and 777?
 
9v-svc
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Wed Feb 11, 2004 10:55 pm

Both Airbus345 and B772LR are fine aircrafts. Without compeitition, we might not even see better products. I am glad that Airbus and Boeing are rivals, hope to see more great products from both of them.
Airliners is the wings of my life.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Wed Feb 11, 2004 11:05 pm

I think the GE exclusivity for the B777 is quite the same as the RR exclusivity for the A340-500/600. No advantage for either model here.

I believe this is incorrect. I don't believe Airbus offers the A345/6 with only RR engines. I think it's because so far, it's been the only type ordered.

As far as the rivalry goes, hang on people, it's gonna be a fun ride!  Laugh out loud

I am an airliner fan. I don't care who makes them. I may not be a fan of the company that makes them, but the machines are awesome. I'm still amazed that something so big can not only get off the ground, but can stay there for nearly an entire calendar day!!!!!!  Wow!

Regards
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
eg777er
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Wed Feb 11, 2004 11:09 pm

Engine Exclusivity: there is a subtle difference. Boeing's agreement with GE means that Boeing is not allowed to accept another engine manufacturer on the 772LR.

In comparison, there happens to be only one engine for the A345/6, the RR. But there is no "exclusivity" agreement. If GE or PW wanted to provide an engine for the A345/6, they could do so. It is their choice, not Airbus' or RR's, that they have not done so.
 
Udo
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Wed Feb 11, 2004 11:16 pm

Exclusivity by contract or not, fact is that no engine manufacturer except RR offers an engine for the A340-500/600. If one airline addresses PW or GE their request would probably be rejected. Think about all the development and certification process. If an airline, say Northwest, wants the A346 in 2005 with PW they wouldn't get it. It's just not available, exclusivity or not. So we have a very similar situation.
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
col
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Wed Feb 11, 2004 11:25 pm

Airbus actually made a smart move by offering the most favored engine for the long range airlines in RR. I have heard that only GE could produce the engine for the 773ER/772LR, but I am sure RR and PW have capabilities to produce an engine in that thrust catagory. RR and PW were the number 1 and 2 on the 777, and Boeing chose number 3?
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Wed Feb 11, 2004 11:29 pm

My understanding is there was an exclusivity agreement between Airbus and Rolls but it was limited to a relatively short period of time. It still wouldn't be easy to unseat the incumbent unless Rolls screwed up royally with the T500. So, it is essentially a permanent exclusivity agreement. Also, for some of the 777 customers, they still can enjoy the benefit of engine commonality if they choose the 777LR. For all the 340 customers, they will be guaranteed to add a new engine type if they choose the 340NG.
 
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solnabo
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Wed Feb 11, 2004 11:53 pm

"4 engines 4 long houls"
Nuf said  Big thumbs up

Michael//SE
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
darkblue
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Wed Feb 11, 2004 11:59 pm

GE is the sole provider for the A340-200/300, but the -500 and -600 are much heavier and required over 50k of thrust. This is too high for the CFM, but the CF6 is bit over-powered. GE just doesn't offer an engine in this thrust class.

As for Pratt, the PW4000 does have ratings that would be a good match for the -500/600. I can't really say why they didn't offer an engine. Most likely they didn't see it profitable enough to develop a new rating.

DB
 
darkblue
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Thu Feb 12, 2004 12:06 am

GE could produce the engine for the 773ER/772LR, but I am sure RR and PW have capabilities to produce an engine in that thrust catagory

That's the point, GE spent money up front developing a whole new engine for the first 777 models. This put them behind RR and PW. When Boeing began working on the 773ER/772LR, GE asked for an exclusive contract. Since PW and RR would have to develop new engines and would be behind anyway, Boeing agreed to GE's offer.

DB
 
DIA
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Thu Feb 12, 2004 12:13 am

Read these good parts of the article, then get off your Airbus soapbox:


"We are not trying to cheat Airbus," Rob Faye, Boeing's regional director of product marketing, said during an interview at Boeing's commercial airplanes headquarters in Renton a few days before the record-breaking flights began.

But the fact is, he said, "Airbus does a really good job of promoting their airplanes ... But they sometimes overstate the characteristics of their airplanes.

"We spend time making sure the airlines understand the capabilities of both planes."

His comment came as he went through with a reporter numerous Boeing charts showing why the A340-500 can't match the performance of Boeing's 777-200LR, which will take back the title of longest-range jetliner when it enters service in 2006.

Boeing would point out that the two General Electric engines on the 777-200LR, developed for the 777-300ER that is about to enter service, are the world's most powerful, delivering more thrust than all four engines of the A340-500. And with better fuel efficiency.


Fact is, whether you are an Airbus fan, or Boeing fan, it's like the article says:

"That's how it is in the trenches, be it the trash talk between professional football teams or the world's two biggest airplane makers battling for market supremacy."

Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
toBEYwithMEA
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Thu Feb 12, 2004 12:18 am

Shenzhen,
what does that mean??
And before you comment on me check your spelling.


Does anyone really trust a 2 engine jet on a 18 hour flight??
toBEYwithMEA
MEA FLYING HIGH AND RETURING TO IT FORMER GLORY!
 
DIA
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Thu Feb 12, 2004 12:22 am

"Does anyone really trust a 2 engine jet on a 18 hour flight??"

Not this again. . .
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
osteogenesis
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Thu Feb 12, 2004 12:22 am

DIA,

I thought this part is the best. It just proves that Boeing is not telling the true.

Faye's charts raised questions as to how many passengers short of 181 the Airbus plane could carry to Singapore against the strong head winds at this time of the season.

"They will struggle to fill that plane (at 181 seats)," Faye said. His charts showed the plane with about 147 passengers against the winter winds.

That first flight actually had 151 passengers on board, but the airline said the empty seats had nothing to do with the plane's ability to make the non-stop flight with a full load. The seats were just not sold.

Capt. Leong Siew Loong, the commander of the plane, told reporters during the 18-hour flight that the A340-500 could have "comfortably" carried as many as 250 passengers from Los Angeles to Singapore, even against the head winds.
 Big grin
 
DIA
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Thu Feb 12, 2004 12:27 am

Yes, I understand. . .I was just trying to level-up the critical views here. . .which is why I mentioned:

"Fact is, whether you are an Airbus fan, or Boeing fan, it's like the article says:

"That's how it is in the trenches, be it the trash talk between professional football teams or the world's two biggest airplane makers battling for market supremacy."
 Laugh out loud
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
Dionysus
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Thu Feb 12, 2004 1:25 am

Bashing statements are garbage.

I rather beleive what the customers say....great job Boeing for contradicting with two of your most important customers.

Kind Regards
 
gigneil
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Thu Feb 12, 2004 2:38 am

I have heard that only GE could produce the engine for the 773ER/772LR, but I am sure RR and PW have capabilities to produce an engine in that thrust catagory.

They didn't prove to. Neither derivative engine were as efficient or as easy to modify to high thrust as the completely brand new GE90.

GE just doesn't offer an engine in this thrust class.

Many CF6s on 747s have been in this thrust class, and many 767s as well. I'm sure GE could come up with something in no time at all.

Most PW engines sold are in this thrust class... the PW4056 and PW4052 are popular motors. Minor enhancements would be necessary to meet the performance requirements, but they could be backported from the PW4168.


Point is, if NW wanted the 345 and wanted PW engines, I'm sure they could find someone else that did, and move on it.

N
 
AC345
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:17 am

A lot of trash talking and chest thumping worthy of the Jerry Springer show. Build the damn 772LR first and make sure it performs as well as or better than expected, and then you can trash the Airbus product all you want. Until then, talk is cheap. Airbus had the foresight to build the 345 first, Boeing dragged its feet with their 772LR. Advantage Airbus. For now.

Once Boeing builds the 772LR and it does all that it promises, I could see their plane gaining some serious market share. The 773ER seems to be a remarkable machine, and most likely that so will the 772LR when it's ready. But until then, all this talk is nonsense.

The reverse it's also true. The 7E7 is years away from being built, and Airbus is already dismissing it as an unworthy competitor for their 332. Wait until that plane is up and running, and then you can compare it/trash it until the cows come home. I understand that this is marketing, but it all sounds rather cretinous and childish.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Boeing Puts Out Case Against A345, For 772LR

Thu Feb 12, 2004 8:09 am

Just to correct a common misconception... the 772LR is actually available for as early as next July, should an airline choose to take delivery as early. Thus far, PK and BR have chosen 1/06 and 6/06 respectively.

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