trijetfan1
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Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:18 am

What do you think was the largest airline and/or aircraft failure.
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trijetfan1
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:30 am

Airline- ValuJet- after the crash in the everglades, they went down suddenly
Aircraft- Tough to say, I would consider the 764 a disappointment not a failure.
-TriJetFan1
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Cory6188
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:54 am

Well, when you say failure, do you mean as in a crash? Or as in a business model/no sales?

If you mean failure, I would agree with you on ValuJet. As for an airplane, I'm not really sure. I don't know much about airliner safety statistics.

If you are referring to economic failure, I would say that US at the moment would be rather deserving of the title. DL isn't exactly winning any awards for employee relations either. As for airplane, I would consider the 717 a dud. It was not designed for a certain customer, like the 764 for DL and CO. Boeing knew that the 764 was not going to be a huge seller - but I think that they expected more from the 717 than a few orders from Midwest and some planes for AirTran.
 
trijetfan1
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:59 am

Well for failure of aircraft, its anything that you think made an aircraft fail.
-I also agree that the 717 didn't do too well.
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jcded
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Fri Feb 13, 2004 10:12 am

well valujet become airtran, not sure thats a failure
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trijetfan1
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sat Feb 14, 2004 8:29 am

Didn't the Russians make the TU-204 to compete with western 757 style jets?


[Edited 2004-02-14 00:32:37]
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isitsafenow
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sat Feb 14, 2004 8:35 am

AIRCRAFT...the DC 5...only two built in KLM markings
AIRLINE..... .Eastern...largest in routes and fleet when shut down
with Braniff one close behind in size
ROUTES only...Swissair
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FlyPIJets
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:32 am

Aircraft = Dassault Mercure

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Photo © Steve Brimley



Airline Failure = Eastern, Pan American
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BCAInfoSys
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:40 am

That Mercure looks like the ugly cross-breeding of a 737 and an A319! lol.
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ETStar
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:51 am

Airline: Pan Am
Aircraft (from modern days): B767-400 (Boeing) and maybe A318 (Airbus)


[Edited 2004-02-14 01:52:28]
 
Skydrol
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sat Feb 14, 2004 3:29 pm

BCAInfoSys wrote:
>>>
That Mercure looks like the ugly cross-breeding of a 737 and an A319! lol.
<<<

So... A + B = M

Should solve the A vs. B battle once and for all.  Smile


I must agree with the Mercure being a failure though. Development and construction of a 737-sized aircraft is a very large undertaking to only produce 12 units. As far as I know they were only operated by Air Inter.

Read about the Mercure


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yanksn4
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sat Feb 14, 2004 3:38 pm

It probably wasn't the biggest, but wasn't United Airlines Shuttle a big flop?
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lauda777
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sat Feb 14, 2004 3:39 pm

That AA A300 that broke up and crashed on takeoff in NY in 2001, Its pretty scary that they dont know what caused it, the only kind of accident that scares me (plane or car) is when they cant work out what caused it or why a certain part malfunctioned  Insane
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L-188
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sat Feb 14, 2004 3:49 pm

Manufacturer.

Avro Canada....They got screwed over so many times by the government that it isn't funny. Because of that the Candian industry is a fraction of what it should be.

Airline.

Eastern Air Lines has got to be the first one, because this was the first time that Bankers and Airline Unions went ten rounds. And everybody ended up losing.

Aircraft......Had to think on this one, since there have been a few examples. Dasault Mercure, Tu-144, Avro Jetliner, Lockheed Electra, Convair 990, Trident Starship, Saab 2000, ATP, Concorde (I know, you want to flame me, but look at all the canceled orders).

But I am afraid that I am going to have to put the largest aircraft failure on a pioneer aircraft that most consider a success.......The Dehavilland Comet.(I know flame on)

But you look at it, this aircraft was so revolutionary in performace and economy, it should have immediately made everything else obsolete. It's only competitor at time of roll out was the Avro Canada Jetliner, which would be canceled by the government to make room in the assembly halls for fighter production.

But because so many comprimises had been made in it's construction the aircraft ended up introducing the world to the term "metal fatiuge". The delay to determine the causes of those crashes and redesigning the aircraft to fix the problem gave time for two US companies to design aircraft that where faster, held more people and where more economic....The DC-8 and more importantly the 707.

By the time the fixed Comet 4's came around the 707 was allready flying and it didn't have the stigma that the crashes had bought on the Comet.
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trijetfan1
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sun Feb 15, 2004 3:24 am

I wouldn't consider the A-318 to be a flop yet, b/c it has not been in service long enough to 'flop.' But i think it will, b/c American carriers already have short range airliners such as the ERJ, any Canadair, and the 738 and 738. They do not need another short range jetliner......And is Frontier the only USA airline to operate the A-318?
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bmacleod
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sun Feb 15, 2004 3:28 am

AIRLINE: Sad to say it but...Eastern........

AIRCRAFT: MD-11 (Why hasn't it been mentioned?) (As a passenger carrier, cargo seems OK)

From the design stage to production and flight stages, Boeing and Airbus were nipping at MD's heels with the 777 and 340. In terms of total costs of cancelled orders, maintenance problems, crashes, it probably recieved the biggest hit.

In 2nd place would be the L1011

[Edited 2004-02-14 19:32:28]
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TYSGoVols
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sun Feb 15, 2004 3:32 am

I would say that the TU-144 was a BIG failure. I love Concorde and all but it would have been nice to have seen some competition. Also along those lines anything the Russians built was pretty bad. Not to many still flying outside of the old republics and other USSR supported states such as China and Cuba.

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FLYtoEGCC
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sun Feb 15, 2004 3:44 am

Airline - Canada 3000 was a pretty big failure, losing $1.5m a day by the time it went bust.

Aircraft - My browser keeps crashing and when I came back, Bmacleod beat me to the punch with MD-11  Big thumbs up a disappointment to McDonnell Douglas. But don't forget, the 717 and the MD-11 were both derivatives of successful aircraft (DC-9 and DC-10 respectively) so they can't be considered failures like the TU-144 or Dassault Mercure can.
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bmacleod
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sun Feb 15, 2004 3:49 am

That AA A300 that broke up and crashed on takeoff in NY in 2001, Its pretty scary that they dont know what caused it, the only kind of accident that scares me (plane or car) is when they cant work out what caused it or why a certain part malfunctioned

I believe it was from the wake or jetwash of a JAL 747 which took of just before the AA300. The NTSB will issue a final report this spring.
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DIJKKIJK
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sun Feb 15, 2004 3:54 am

Airlines: PanAm, TWA, Eastern , Braniff, Piedmont, Swissair, Sabena,

Aircraft: All British built a/c other than the Vickers Viscount and the HS 748, CONVAIR 880/990, Mercure, Concorde, Douglas DC5, Douglas DC2, Lockheed L1011, YS-11, Boeing 247D, Boeing 307 stratoliner, all Russian a/c other than
the TU154 and IL76.
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FLYtoEGCC
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sun Feb 15, 2004 3:56 am

DIJKKIJK
I wouldn't have said the BAe146 / Avro RJ line was a failure. They sold pretty well in the market they were designed for, before the ERJ / CRJ families were established. In terms of sales, they might not match the modern RJ families, but in terms of performance and number still in operation, they are certainly not a failure.
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DIJKKIJK
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sun Feb 15, 2004 3:58 am

and the biggest failure amongst airplane companies....


Fokker, without a doubt!

[Edited 2004-02-14 19:59:57]
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trijetfan1
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sun Feb 15, 2004 4:03 am

Fokker? didn't AA operate over fifty F-100's at one time......Dassault Mercure is first. Fokker sold more aircraft than Dassault Mercure.
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DIJKKIJK
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sun Feb 15, 2004 4:08 am

FLYtoEGCC: I would agree that the BAE 146 /Avro RJ line was not a failure.

TriJetFan: I was talking about aircraft manufacturing companies when I mentioned Fokker.
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aa757first
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sun Feb 15, 2004 4:09 am

Legend went down in what, five months?

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freshlove1
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sun Feb 15, 2004 4:09 am

Airline has to be Eastern, with Pan Am a close second......Aircraft I would say was the MD-11.
 
trijetfan1
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sun Feb 15, 2004 4:13 am

DIJKKIJK- How do you think Fokker was the worst failure, in terms of sales, quality, safety record, etc?
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solnabo
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sun Feb 15, 2004 4:14 am

Airline failure for me is Sabena, sorry to say!
They got a new all-airbus fleet, and in a couple
of years they went bankrupt.........sad, very sad!
Aircraft is B 767-400.

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isitsafenow
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sun Feb 15, 2004 4:15 am

DIJKKIJK...Hello from USA...Piedmont did not fail. They were purchased by US Air and merged with their operation. They were solvent when the purchase took place.
The DC2 was really not a failure. It was better in sales then the DC 1, but Douglas came out with the DC 3. Air carriers shifted their purchases toward that plane and Douglas stopped the DC 2 production line and built more and more of the the DC 3/ C-47. The rest is airliner history.

FOKKER the biggest airplane company? Agreed!
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FLYtoEGCC
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sun Feb 15, 2004 4:17 am

If we're talking VARIANTS that didn't sell well... e.g. 767-400, MD-11... then surely the A340-200 has to be considered as well, there weren't that many built, were there? Once the -313X came along, as has been discussed in detail before, it was no longer required.
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DIJKKIJK
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sun Feb 15, 2004 4:24 am

"How do you think Fokker was the worst failure, in terms of sales, quality, safety record, etc"


When a company which has produced one of the most successful aircraft ever (F27), and which had an excellent line of jets under production(F100, F70) folds up overnight, it can only be called a failure.


Isit safenow: Thanks for the correction about Piedmont.

[Edited 2004-02-14 20:26:07]
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trijetfan1
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sun Feb 15, 2004 4:27 am

"When a company which has produced one of the most successful aircraft ever,(F27), and which had an excellent line of jets under production(F100, F70) folds up overnight, it can only be called a failure."

-Good point

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blackbird615
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sun Feb 15, 2004 4:31 am

U.S. airline failures: 1) Pan Am 2) Eastern 3) TWA 4) Braniff. Waiting in the wings with some potential US Airways. A secondary industry failure includes many airlines-within-airlines: United Shuttle, MetroJet & Delta Shuttle. Last week Delta announced a halt to further expansion of Song pending evaluation and United's TED is to new to classify or evaluate.

Airplane: Current generation aircraft 737-600 & 717.
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freshlove1
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sun Feb 15, 2004 1:02 pm

The 767-400 was not a failure, it was only built for DL and CO and they knew that it was not going to be a big seller, and from what I can see it looks as if it does what DL and CO want. Every DL 767-400 I have been on has been filled to capacity.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sun Feb 15, 2004 1:09 pm

Got to have Tower Air in there somewhere. And wasn't the Comet a commercial failure? BOAC bought a few, but after the crash it's sales went down hill fast.

[Edited 2004-02-15 05:20:45]
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GalvanAir777
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sun Feb 15, 2004 1:18 pm

Tower Air was the worst airline to fail, good bye forever!

How about Midway 1? They fell pretty hard, no on second thought they fell on there face.

How about the 747-300? That was a putrid seller wasn't it?

[Edited 2004-02-15 05:19:40]
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Ryan h
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sun Feb 15, 2004 1:49 pm

I would say Ansett for airlines and the Dornier Do 728 for the aircraft.
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LFutia
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Sun Feb 15, 2004 1:52 pm

I also would def. say Ansett

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trijetfan1
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RE: Largest Airline And/or Aircraft Failure

Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:19 am

What happened to Ansett?
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