OrbitJFK
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Could AC Pull Off NCE?

Mon Feb 16, 2004 11:22 am

Do you think AC could profitably operate a YUL or YYZ flight to Nice, France? I think it could fare well with French-influence/speaking Canadians looking for a different vacation spot. What do you think?

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yyz717
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RE: Could AC Pull Off NCE?

Mon Feb 16, 2004 11:28 am

It wuold have to be a YUL-NCE which would be a much larger market than YYZ-NCE. TS operates summer charters on YMX-NCE and there is probably not room for AC also.

AC seems to have problems serving leisure markets consistently in Europe. MAN, GLA, BHM, DUB, MAD, LIS, ATH, AMS, CPH have all been added & dropped seasonally and permanently. AC also seems to prefer markets that can support a minimum daily flight. I doubt YUL-NCE could support daily ops.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: Could AC Pull Off NCE?

Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:08 pm

Been there, done that. Believe it was circa 1988. NCE was served as an extension of AC866 YMX-LHR-NCE, with local carriage rights between LHR & NCE.

Even with high revenue, hi-yielding intra-Europe traffic, AC came to the conclusion that "tag-end" flights were not feasable. Could YUL-NCE be served profitably? Perhaps, but only seasonally, and it seems that secondary routes ex Canada such as CPH & MAD are biting the dust these days.
Above and Beyond
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: Could AC Pull Off NCE?

Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:13 pm

Been there, done that. Believe it was circa 1988. NCE was served as an extension of AC866 YMX-LHR-NCE, with local carriage rights between LHR & NCE, and was timed for cross connections with other incoming AC flights.

Even with high revenue, hi-yielding intra-Europe traffic, AC came to the conclusion that "tag-end" flights were not feasable. Could NCE be served profitably? Perhaps from YUL, but only seasonally, and it seems that secondary routes ex Canada such as CPH & MAD are biting the dust these days.
Above and Beyond
 
flyyul
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RE: Could AC Pull Off NCE?

Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:46 pm

I think AC could easily pull this route off.

NCE, a wealthy city French city, has only a flight to JFK for its North American network with DL. DL doesnt have much feed beyond JFK in relative terms,

If AC can survive on YYZ-GLA and YYZ-DUB etc, AC could do just as well on YULNCE, assuming feed also.

Mark
 
northstardc4m
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RE: Could AC Pull Off NCE?

Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:51 pm

YYZ-GLA and YYZ-DUB are seasonal and low-yeilding. YUL-NCE would be no different. Could it work... maybe? Can AC afford to try it now, no way.

A 767-200 might be feasable, but i can't see it happening.
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SHUPirate1
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RE: Could AC Pull Off NCE?

Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:09 pm

FLYYUL-DL has quite a few connecting flights out of JFK, on the Comair CRappyJets...certainly, Delta has better feed out of JFK than any other airline that uses JFK as a transatlantic gateway (very few airlines have a significant number of flights from JFK to anywhere inside of the LGA perimeter)...United operates its LHR and NRT flights on almost no feed whatsoever, American has some feed from the west coast, but not much from inside of the LGA perimeter, Continental has very little need for JFK with their dominating hub at EWR, Northwest has no feed on its AMS and NRT flights (the feed comes from the AMS and NRT ends of the flights), and JFK must be the only airport in New York State with a runway longer than 500 feet that US Airways, or one of their regional affiliates, doesn't serve...
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
flyyul
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RE: Could AC Pull Off NCE?

Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:10 pm

AC is going all Y class to AMS/ZRH/GLA/MAN (but BMI took it)/DUB and SNN.

AC can easily do the same NCE/GVA/BRU/LIS on top of the above mentionned routes, where there is a guarantee of high load factor alone.

Mark

 
flyyul
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RE: Could AC Pull Off NCE?

Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:13 pm

SHUPirate.

The DL network in JFK is decent, but its not a full-fledge hub by most means.

Mark
 
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yyz717
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RE: Could AC Pull Off NCE?

Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:29 pm

If AC can survive on YYZ-GLA and YYZ-DUB etc, AC could do just as well on YULNCE

It's different markets. YYZ-MAN/GLA/DUB/AMS are sustained by 100's of 1000's of immigrants in the YYZ area who originated from the UK, Ireland, etc.

There is no immigrant base from Southern France in the YUL so the YUL-NCE market would only be supported by YUL vacationers. I doubt this could justify daily AC.

NYC is large enough to support the NCE market with a DL daily. Mark is correct about JFK....it is only a partial DL hub.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: Could AC Pull Off NCE?

Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:29 pm

FLYYUL-That I'll give you...the domestic (specifically inside-perimeter) operations at JFK, other than jetBlue's flights, is absolutely abysmal for a major airport.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
flyyul
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RE: Could AC Pull Off NCE?

Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:58 pm

Constantly, every year, France is the top immigration to Montreal (over 4,000 a year).

The UK/Ireland immigrants are all 2nd/3rd generations who have limited ties with these countries. Same example as your Italians etc.

NCE is a large market, the 2nd biggest in France, and im sure it could sustain more transatlantic routes.

Mark
 
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yyz717
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RE: Could AC Pull Off NCE?

Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:34 pm

Constantly, every year, France is the top immigration to Montreal (over 4,000 a year).

Yeah, but they're far more likely from the CDG area than NCE.

The UK/Ireland immigrants are all 2nd/3rd generations who have limited ties with these countries.

There are over 500k British-born Cdns in Ontario alone. That's what supports summer flights from YYZ to MAN, GLA, EDI, East Midlands, BFS, Cardiff, Newcastle, BHX, Exeter, DUB, SNN, Leeds/Bradford, Aberdeen.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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usdcaguy
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RE: Could AC Pull Off NCE?

Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:53 am

I am a little skeptical about this one. Where will all the top business fares come from? If AC wants to pursue a seasonal route in this market, I think it would probably work May-September as long as it could get enough yield from higher-priced leisure tickets June-August. Still, I wonder if it wouldn't be better to allocate the aircraft to a destination such as DXB with better onward connections, thus ensuring more year-round traffic.
 
FlySSC
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RE: Could AC Pull Off NCE?

Tue Feb 17, 2004 1:09 am

I don't think a regular flight YUL-NCE would be successful all the year round. In summer of course, yes, with a traffic of almost 100% tourists... but AC serves already CDG 2/daily and AF 3/daily from YUL with an excellent and fast connection to NCE and all the major French cities. Moreover, there's a lot of Charter flights NONSTOP from YUL or YQB in summer to many French cities : NCE, MRS, TLS, BOD, SXB etc..., even to smaller ones, like CFE (Clermont-Ferrand), BES, GNB.
 
yul332LX
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RE: Could AC Pull Off NCE?

Tue Feb 17, 2004 2:09 am

I doubt very much that AC is even considering YUL-NCE in the coming years.

TS is Successful with their YMX-NCE (soon to be YUL-NCE) and AC could easily fill a 762 2-3x times a week but that'd be a very low yield route. Also, it would be a very popular route for the Aeroplan members. I know quite a few people that would be regulars all year long on this route if it existed.

AF would probably be more successful with this route (with flights connecting to the Magreb Region) but unfortunately, they stopped all direct flights between France’s regional cities like LYS/NCE and North America in the 90’s when they decided to make CDG their sole hub.
Anyway, with the 767 gone, even if AF wanted an NCE-YUL, they would not have appropriated planes to operate it.

Eric
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
cedarjet
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RE: Could AC Pull Off NCE?

Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:20 am

If Beirut is a problem for AC, I don't see Nice happening any time soon.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz

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