lga1011
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The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:55 am

I have just read the book Terror at Tenerife and I'm wondering if anybody knows any other books about that crash?
 
trijetfan1
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 11:15 am

I saw a documentery on that crash, it seemed almost impossible that two crews made two different errors at the same time that lead to the collision.
Earned PPL June 26, 2007
 
Jano
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 11:17 am

The crash is mentioned in Air Disasters Volume 1; pages 164-181;
by Macarthur Job
The Widget Air Line :)
 
jeffrey1970
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 11:21 am

I could never understand why since the ATC could not even see the airplanes, if I am correct, why they did not order a ground halt. I hope someone can clear that up for me.

God bless through Jesus,

Jeff
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
LHR340
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 11:24 am

Jeffrey, the airport was covered in a blanket of fog, and TFN didn't have any ground tracking systems, and ofcourse the aircraft didn't have TCAS.

LHR340
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MD11LuxuryLinr
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 11:25 am

..." it seemed almost impossible that two crews made two different errors at the same time that lead to the collision."...

I thought the cause of the accident was placed solely on the pilot of the KLM 747?.. He initiated the takeoff without clearance, and even with a disagreeing co pilot..
Caution wake turbulence, you are following a heavy jet.
 
trijetfan1
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 11:29 am

The Pan Am 747 missed their runway exit.
Earned PPL June 26, 2007
 
electraBob
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 11:33 am

It is just amazing that the two aircraft involved in this horrible disaster were not even supposed to be at Tenerife. Both were headed to Las Palmas and had to divert to Tenerife due to a bomb exloding in the Las Palmas terminal.
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jwenting
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 2:39 pm

I thought the cause of the accident was placed solely on the pilot of the KLM 747?.. He initiated the takeoff without clearance, and even with a disagreeing co pilot..

No, only Spanish ATC did that.
Investigators found that both crews has misinterpreted ATC statements and their charts.

The controller gave the KLM crew permission to enter the runway "you are cleared runway XXX" which at their homebase (and pretty much everywhere at the time) meant "you are cleared for takeoff" in a thick Spanish accent.
ATC meant "cleared to line up and wait" but never said that.
At the same time, PanAm had missed a taxiway turnoff in the fog without reporting this to ATC, leading ATC to think PanAm was clear of the runway and on a taxiway.

Investigators also found on examining the tower audio tapes that a television had been running at high volume in the tower, the controllers had been watching a soccer game instead of controlling traffic!

When KLM spotted PanAm it was too late. They pulled up steeply at just over stall speed, their main gear hit PanAm's tail, and they crashed on top of PanAm.

As a result of this crash, ATC reporting procedures were enhanced greatly with readbacks and less ambiguous vocabulary to prevent any misunderstandings in the future.

In the end, effectively noone was cleared or blamed.
I wish I were flying
 
geedo
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 3:49 pm

Captain Van Zantan of the KLM flight was also overly anxious to get underway after already being delayed by the poor weather.
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fuffla
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 4:04 pm

I just got Airline Disasters Volume 1, and now am well informed, shocking crash, is it the most deaths in a commercial aviation crash?
 
propjock04
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 4:04 pm

The KLM crew had the added pressure to make sure they got to their destination within their duty time. If they had delayed much longer they would have busted their duty period, which at the time in The Netherlands, was a punishable/criminal offense. They could have been fired and possibly thrown in jail.

Michael
 
BD1959
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 4:33 pm



Jwenting: When KLM spotted PanAm it was too late. They pulled up steeply at just over stall speed, their main gear hit PanAm's tail, and they crashed on top of PanAm.

Haven't got the Air Disaster account in front of me but I thought the KLM gear struck the upper deck of the PA747, right where the FE sat.

BD1959
 
flykal
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 4:37 pm

At the same time, PanAm had missed a taxiway turnoff in the fog without reporting this to ATC, leading ATC to think PanAm was clear of the runway and on a taxiway.

Not entirely accurate according to the CVR transcript. It was true that there was some confusion over which taxiway that the PanAm aircraft should exit via. This was compounded by the fact that ATC did not specify which taxiway to exit via, but simply just counted the numbers (one, two three). Furthermore ATC stated: :

"...Clipper 7136 report leaving the runway"

Clipper 7136 in fact never did report leaving the runway and in fact reported to ATC that they were still taxing down the runway when they heard the KLM flight accepting an ATC clearance for a takeoff clearance.


The controller gave the KLM crew permission to enter the runway "you are cleared runway XXX" which at their homebase (and pretty much everywhere at the time) meant "you are cleared for takeoff" in a thick Spanish accent.
ATC meant "cleared to line up and wait" but never said that.


True, but the CVR also recorded that ATC stated:
"Stand by for takeoff, I will call you"...but unfortunately that transmission was not heard properly as two aircraft attempted to transmit at the same time.

Like any accident, many people and organizations can learn a great deal from this terrible tragedy.

Regards,
Phil

[Edited 2004-02-17 08:38:34]
One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time
 
flykal
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 4:47 pm

Not sure if this will work, but here's a copy of the CVR transcript. Clearly shows what's happening and the communication failure between KLM, ATC and PanAm.

Read it and make your own decisions!  Smile


CVR transcript KLM Flight 4805 and Pan Am Flight 1736 collision - 27 MAR 1977
Cockpit voice recorder transcription of the 27 March 1977 KLM, Pan Am Boeing 747 collision Tenerife. Source: ICAO Circular 153-AN/56

Legend:
APP = Tenerife tower
RDO-2 = Pan Am Radio communications (co-pilot)
CAM-1 = Cockpit Area Mike PanAm (captain)
CAM-2 = Cockpit Area Mike PanAm (co-pilot)
CAM-3 = Cockpit Area Mike PanAm (flight engineer)
KLM = KLM Radio Communications
KLM-1 = KLM Cockpit Area Mike (captain)
KLM-2 = KLM Cockpit Area Mike (co-pilot)
KLM-3 = KLM Cockpit Area Mike (flight engineer)

Time: Source: Content:
1701:57.0 RDO-2 Tenerife the Clipper one seven three six. (1702:00.2)
1702:01.8 APP Clipper one seven three six Tenerife.
1702:03.6 RDO-2 Ah- We were instructed to contact you and also to taxi down the runway, is that correct? (1702:07.4)
1702:08.4 APP Affirmative, taxi into the runway and -ah leave the runway third, third to your left, (background conversation in the tower).
1702:16.4 RDO-2 Third to the left, O.K. (17:02.18.3)
1702:18.4 CAM-3 Third he said.
CAM-? Three.
1702:20.6 APP -ird one to your left.
1702:21.9 CAM-1 I think he said first.
1702:26.4 CAM-2 I'll ask him again.
CAM-? * * *
1702:32.2 CAM-2 Left turn.
1702:33.1 CAM-1 I don't think they have take-off minimums anywhere right now.
1702:39.2 CAM-1 What really happened over there today?
1702:41.6 CAM-4 They put a bomb (in) the terminal, Sir, right where the check-in counters are.
1702:46.6 CAM-1 Well we asked them if we could hold and -uh- I guess you got the word, we landed here **
CAM-? * * *
1702:49.8 APP KLMfour eight zero five how many taxiway -ah- did you pass?
1702:55.6 KLM I think we just passed charlie four now.
1702:59.9 APP O.K. ... at the end of the runway make one eighty and report -ah- ready -ah- for ATC clearance (background conversation in the tower).
1703:09.3 CAM-2 The first one is a ninety degree turn.
1703:11.0 CAM-1 Yeah, O.K.
1703:12.1 CAM-2 Must be the third ... I'll ask him again.
1703:14.2 CAM-1 O.K.
1703:16.6 CAM-1 We could probably go in it's ah ...
1703:19.1 CAM-1 You gotta make a ninety degree turn.
1703:21.6 CAM-1 Yeah, uh.
1703:21.6 CAM-2 Ninety degree turn to get around this ... this one down here it's a forty five.
1703:29.3 RDO-2 Would you confirm that you want the clipper one seven three six to turn left at the third intersection? (1703:35.4).
1703:35.1 CAM-1 One, two.
1703:36.4 APP The third one, sir, one; two, three, third, third one (1703:38.3)..
1703:38.3 CAM-? One two (four).
1703:39.0 CAM-1 Good.
1703:40.1 CAM-1 That's what we need right, the third one.
1703:42.9 CAM-3 Uno, dos, tres.
1703:44.0 CAM-1 Uno, dos, tres.
1703:44.9 CAM-3 Tres - uh - si.
1703:46.5 CAM-1 Right.
1703:47.6 CAM-3 We'll make it yet.
1703:47.6 APP ...er seven one three six report leaving the runway.
1703:49.1 CAM-2 Wing flaps?
1703:50.2 CAM-1 Ten, indicate ten, leading edge lights are green.
1703:54.1 CAM-? Get that.
1703:55.0 RDO-2 Clipper one seven three six (1703:56.4)
1703:56.5 CAM-2 Yaw damp and instrument?
1703:58.6 CAM-1 Ah- Bob we'll get a left one *
1703:59.3 CAM-2 I got a left.
1704:00.6 CAM-1 Did you?
1704.00.9 CAM-2 And -ah- need a right.
1704:02.6 CAM-1 I'll give you a little *
1704:03.8 CAM-2 Put a little aileron in this thing.
1704:05.0 CAM-1 O.K., here's a left and I'll give you a right one right here.
1704:09.7 CAM-1 O.K. right turn right and left yaw.
1704:11.4 CAM-2 Left yaw checks.
1704:12.4 CAM-1 O.K., here's the rudders.
1704:13.6 CAM-1 Here's two left, centre, two right centre.
1704:17.8 CAM-2 Checks.
1704:19.2 CAM-2 Controls.
1704:19.6 CAM-1 Haven't seen any yet!
1704:20.3 CAM-2 I haven't either.
1704:21. 7 CAM-1 They're free, the indicators are checked.
1704:24.6 CAM-2 There's one.
1704:25.8 CAM-1 There's one.
1704:26.4 CAM-1 That's the ninety degree.
1704:28.5 CAM-? O.K.
1704:34.5 CAM-? ***
CAM-2 Weight and balance finals?
1704:37.7 CAM (Sounds similar to stabilizer trim).(1704:44.8)
1704:37.2 CAM-1 We were gonna put that on four and a half
1704:39.8 CAM-3 We got four and a half and we weigh five thirty four (sound of stabilizer trim).
1704:44.6 CAM-2 Four and a half on the right.
1704:46.8 CAM-2 Engineer's taxi check.
1704:48.4 CAM-3 Taxi check is complete.
1704:50.5 CAM-2 Take-off and departure briefing?
1704:52.1 CAM-1 O.K., it'll be standard, we gonna go straight out there till we get thirty five hundred feet then we're gonna make that reversal and go back' out to * fourteen.
1704:58.2 APP -m eight seven zero five and clipper one seven ... three six, for your information, the centre line lighting is out of service. (APP transmission is readable but slightly broken.)
1705:05.8 KLM I copied that.
1705:07.7 RDO-2 Clipper one seven three six.
1705:09.6 CAM-1 We got centre line markings (* only) (could be "don't we) they count the same thing as ... we need eight hundred metres if you don't have that centre line... I read that on the back (of this) just a while ago.
1705:22.0 CAM-1 That's two.
1705:23.5 CAM-3 Yeh, that's forty-five there.
1705:25.7 CAM-1 Yeh.
1705:26.5 CAM-2 That's this one right here.
1705:27.2 CAM-1 (Yeh)I know.
1705:28.1 CAM-3 O.K.
1705:28.5 CAM-3 Next one is almost a forty-five, huh yeh.
1705:30.6 CAM-1 But it goes...
1705:32.4 CAM-1 Yeh, but it goes ... ahead, I think (it's) gonna put us on (the) taxiway.
1705:35.9 CAM-3 Yeah, just a little bit yeh.
1705:39.8 CAM-? O.K., for sure.
1705:40.0 CAM-2 Maybe he, maybe he counts these (are) three.
CAM-? Huh.
1705:44.8 CAM-? I like this.
1705:44.8 KLM Uh, the KLM ... four eight zero five is now ready for take-off ... uh and we're waiting for our ATC clearance.
1705:53.4 APP KLM eight seven * zero five uh you are cleared to the Papa Beacon climb to and maintain flight level nine zero right turn after take-off proceed with heading zero four zero until intercepting the three two five radial from Las Palmas VOR. (1706:08.2)
1706:09.6 KLM Ah roger, sir, we're cleared to the Papa Beacon flight level nine zero, right turn out zero four zero until intercepting the three two five and we're now (at take-off). (1706:17.9)
ca. 1706:13 KLM-1 We gaan. (We're going)
1706:18.19 APP OK.
1706:19.3 RDO No .. eh.
1706:20.08 APP Stand by for take-off, I will call you.
1706:20.3 RDO And we're still taxiing down the runway, the clipper one seven three six.
1706:19.39 - 1706:23.19 RDO and APP communications caused a shrill noise in KLM cockpit - messages not heard by KLM crew.
1706:25.6 APP Roger alpha one seven three six report when runway clear
1706:29.6 RDO OK, we'll report when we're clear.
APP Thank you
1706:32.43 KLM-3 Is hij er niet af dan? {Is he not clear then?}
1706:34.1 KLM-1 Wat zeg je? {What do you say?}
1706:34.15 KLM-? Yup.
1706:34.7 KLM-3 Is hij er niet af, die Pan American? {Is he not clear that Pan American?}
1706:35.7 KLM-1 Jawel. {Oh yes. - emphatic}
1706:40 PanAm captain sees landinglights of KLM Boeing at approx. 700m
1706:44 PH-BUF started rotation
1706:47.44 KLM-1 [Scream]
1706:50 collision
One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time
 
flykal
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:08 pm

One more thing to add...

Here's a picture (albeit not a great one) of Tenerife for those who may not be familiar with the airport layout. Shows also the confusion over taxiways that the crew experienced.



Regards,
Phil
One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time
 
qantasguy
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:36 pm

Fuffla, Other than 9.11, I think you're right, the most deaths in a single airline crash. As for some other resources, try: Air Disasters by Mike Sharpe ISBN 1-84044-026-0 pp 52 and 53. Great photo there. Also try: Air Disasters by Leo Marriott. ISBN 0-7607-1876-8 pp 42 thru 53. Good deep account. Happy flying y"all.
Airplanes Flown on..B-727-100, B-727-200, DC-9, F-27, B-707, B-717, B-737, B-747SP, B-747-100, B-747-200, B-747-300, B74
 
NIKV69
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:46 pm

The Tenerife disaster is the worst as far as deaths in one incident(With 2 AC). The USA's worst single crash was AA DC-10 at O'Hare.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
IBERIA747
Posts: 1648
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 6:21 pm

"The controller gave the KLM crew permission to enter the runway "you are cleared runway XXX" which at their homebase (and pretty much everywhere at the time) meant "you are cleared for takeoff" in a thick Spanish accent."

If that was true and instructions meant that at their homebase, then why did the co-pilot question the pilot´s decision??

There are some facts here that need to be mentioned:
First of all, Pan Am crew didn´t miss the exit due to the fog...Capt. Victor Grubbs decided not to take the exit that was assigned by ATC because it meant two consecutive 135º (or so) turns, the first to the left and the second to the right, and since the taxiways were too narrow to properly handle a B747, the risk of running out of the surface (because of the sharp turns) and getting stuck in the grass/mud was too high...so he decided to mantain the aircraft on the main runway untill an appropriate exit was found.

There´s another thing: when capt. Van Zanten saw the Pan Am aircraft, he tried desperately to take off, to the point of having a tremendous tailstrike...yes, PH-BUF had a tailstrike while trying to get airborne, and when it finally did it hit Pan Am a/c (with it´s belly and landing gear) on the upper part of the middle/rear section.

After collision, the KLM 747 (transformed into a horrendous ball of fire) remained airborne for about 300 meters before crashing on the runway, dropping debris during it´s short flight and leaving a big mark of it´s tailstrike on the runway surface. People that were seating on the front section of Pan Am´s Clipper Victor were the ones who survived to this fatal crash, including the flight crew.
¡¡VIVA ESPAÑA!!
 
brianhames
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 6:39 pm

The Tenerife disaster is the worst as far as deaths in one incident(With 2 AC). The USA's worst single crash was AA DC-10 at O'Hare.

Correct, the worst involving a single aircraft was the JAL 747 where the rear pressure bulkhead exploded and crashed in the mountain face.

Brian
 
NIKV69
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 6:57 pm

Brian,

Hard to believe two people survived that crash, the pilots did all they could to get her back to the airport. Sad. Also note that the bulkhead failed because of an inproper repair. Whoever did the repair was lazy and didn't use the right amount of rivets or only did a single row instead of two. What a shame those poor people didn't have to die.

R.I.P
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
andz
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:13 pm

Slightly off the Tenerife topic but I heard that the person responsible for the JAL bulkhead repair committed suicide after the cause of the accident was revealed, not sure if this is true.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
FlyingColours
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:19 pm

NIKV69 - 4 people survived the JAL123 accident, according to their statments many survived the impact but did not make it through the night on the top of the mountain as help did not come until the morning - they figured nobody could have survived.

One thing with the Tenerife is that the PA 747 was ready to begin taxi but was blocked in by the KL 747, so they had to wait for the KL to get refuelled and then move itself. Had that not blocked it in this would not have happened, of course there are more links in the chain.

I also thought a few people made it out of the midsection of Clipper Victor. Wasn't the heroic man who went back inside seated in there?

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
NIKV69
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:25 pm

Actually I heard that individual did commit suicide. If this is true I would have more respect for him. He was solely to blame and he probably new better. I know I would have trouble living with that.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
tokolosh
Posts: 357
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 7:02 pm

RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:35 pm

As with many accidents, the Tenerife tragedy was a combination of factors. I think it is wrong to apportion blame on one particular individual or circumstance. ATC, the KLM captain, the PanAm captain, they all made mistakes at that fateful moment, plus the weather was lousy, many large planes had been diverted to Tenerife because of the bomb and the airport was basically overwhelmed.

Last year it was 25 years ago. Let's hope something like this doesn't happen again.
Did the chicken or the egg get laid first?
 
NIKV69
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:43 pm

Sorry but the KLM pilot was to blame, absolutely and without question. He abandoned all good judgment and threw safety right out the window and went against procedure, all of these things are cornerstones to aviation. A pilot does a ground check of his AC every time, pilots go through a pre flight check list every time, etc etc. His only thought was to get going as soon as possible and he threw everything else out the window. Those people paid the price.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
ACEregular
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:48 pm

"those people paid the price"

NIKV69, none of those people deserved to die, that is a truly disturbing remark.
 
FlyingColours
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:53 pm

I don't think he meant it like the way you are reading it, I think he meant that 'Those people payed the high price because of something he did' - not meaning that they deserved to die.

I would not blame the KL pilot soley, I would say that it was a huge set of factors, which include the fog, ATC, the KL captain, the KL crew for not questioning him (before CRM - that might have prevented this), the PA plane being on the runway (NOT their fault), the KL plane blocking the PA plane in and making it wait and lets not forget the biggest factor - the bomb at LPA which forced them both there to begin with.

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
NIKV69
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:55 pm

You mis-understand ACE, look at my earlier post, much like the people on the JAL 747 didn't deserve to die at the hands of an improper repair, these poor souls paid the price of a pilots mistake.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
tokolosh
Posts: 357
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:05 pm

NIKV69,

Sorry, but I have to differ with you on this. ATC staff watching a football match on TV is compliant with safety procedures?! The PanAm 747 was still on the runway when it should have been on a taxiway -- the pilot should have informed ATC of his decision not to use the assigned runway exit. He was also extremely irritable, as was the KLM captain. The weather was lousy, there were pressures to get passengers to their destination as quickly as possible, and so on. I don't understand how you can say "Sorry but the KLM pilot was to blame, absolutely and without question". Investigations into this tragedy have not come up with a conclusive result after all these years, except to say it is a combination of factors.

Greetings.

Did the chicken or the egg get laid first?
 
oerk
Posts: 155
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:34 pm

Read the transcripts, the Pan Am pilots never report being clear of the runway.

***************
1706:25.6 APP Roger alpha one seven three six report when runway clear
1706:29.6 RDO OK, we'll report when we're clear.
APP Thank you
***************

Then, a few seconds later.... it appears someone was not following the plot.

***************
1706:32.43 KLM-3 Is hij er niet af dan? {Is he not clear then?}
1706:34.1 KLM-1 Wat zeg je? {What do you say?}
1706:34.15 KLM-? Yup.
1706:34.7 KLM-3 Is hij er niet af, die Pan American? {Is he not clear that Pan American?}
1706:35.7 KLM-1 Jawel. {Oh yes. - emphatic}
***************

The rest is history  Sad

In the end, the whole incident comes down to these few seconds and this monumental error.

[Edited 2004-02-17 12:36:59]

[Edited 2004-02-17 12:54:31]
 
Shenzhen
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:44 pm


""""NIKV69
Hard to believe two people survived that crash, the pilots did all they could to get her back to the airport. Sad. Also note that the bulkhead failed because of an inproper repair. Whoever did the repair was lazy and didn't use the right amount of rivets or only did a single row instead of two. What a shame those poor people didn't have to die."""

Going from memory here, but as I recall, during the repair, a row of rivits didn't pick up both pieces of structure in an area that was nearly impossible to inspect. I don't think anyone was "too" lazy to install the 3 rows of rivits.

the crash ocurred several years after the bulkhead was repaired.

cheers


 
notsofrqntflr
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The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:53 pm

is there any websites where one can find more info on that accident?
 
trekster
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 9:05 pm

I have just read the book "Black Box", and it is interesting to see that the PAN AM wanted to circle around the closed airport rather than divert, but was told he could not (even though it was safe to do, and some airlines did)
Where does the time go???
 
flykal
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 9:08 pm

NotSoFrqntFlr, if you're looking for more detailed info on this one, I'd suggest starting at:

http://aviation-safety.net/specials/tenerife/spanish-1.htm
Spanish version - Part 1 (in English)

http://aviation-safety.net/specials/tenerife/spanish-2.htm
Spanish version - Part 2 (English also)

http://aviation-safety.net/specials/tenerife/comments.htm
Some comments by Netherlands Government department.


This should get you started anyhow!
Cheers,
Phil
One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time
 
cedarjet
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 9:13 pm

Funny how some of our Dutch friends can't accept that the mistake was solely with the KLM captain.

An ATC clearance is NOT a take off clearance. The Pan Am did not report clear and the KLM flight took off without clearance. Blaming fog and a foreign accent is complete nonsense. Fog happens somewhere every day and most people on the R/T speak English with an accent (including KLM pilots).

These factors do not mitigate the KLM pilot's blame in any way whatsoever.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Dexter
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 9:14 pm

It all comes down to this really:

1706:20.08 APP Stand by for take-off, I will call you.
1706:20.3 RDO And we're still taxiing down the runway, the clipper one seven three six.
1706:19.39 - 1706:23.19 RDO and APP communications caused a shrill noise in KLM cockpit - messages not heard by KLM crew.


The KLM Captain then THOUGHT he's heard it all, I guess. Scary stuff...
 
Leej
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 9:37 pm

Just something to consider.....
The Pan Am skipper is being accused of not reporting clear of the runway.
How could he when he never did clear the runway? He was told to report when clear, and no tranmission was made to that effect - so obviously he hadn't cleared!
 
Esajh
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 9:41 pm

A lot of people are missing some things here and maybe it is important to point it out. There is always a series of factors that cause an accident. It is highly unlikely that ONE item will be the cause and if we can stop any of those items the accident will not occur.

Having said that it is also important to know that each item has a placement value on the total causal effect chain. In the case of the KLM pilot a disproportionate cause was the duty time limitation. When you look from an accident investigation standpoint, this cause had a far greater influence over the accident than the other causes. In other words, the weather conditions, the F/O’s questioning the clearance, the lack of forcibly repeating a “blocked” transmission, the timidity of the KLM F/O, the certainty of the KLM Captain all were factors that were forced aside by the disproportionate factor – duty time. There is no doubt that the ATC factors played a roll as well as the Clipper crew’s actions and weather, but the one disproportionate factor in the chain was definitely the duty time problem.

Now here is the sad part of this accident. I am going to say some things that are highly controversial, however, factual! While safety is a great concern to air carriers, so is cost. The duty time limitation has been a problem for decades. Not until another accident that found to have a disproportionate cause (duty time) did the USA government do something about it. Other governments have still to change.

The next major accident which had a disproportionate duty time cause was AA in LIT. Pilots call it racing the clock and we all know what that is. Since the pilots are dead, let me tell you, based upon what we know and past practice, what probably was going through the Captain’s minds.

“The end of a long day, and I’m tired! If I hold here the storm will hit the runway and I will have to divert (it is approaching the runway.) I’ve shot approaches with storms this close a hundred of times and always had no problem. I’ll add a little for mom & the kids and have no problem. If I divert, I’ll have to go back to DFW probably. I’ll have to sit and wait for a while and then the company will dispatch me back to LIT several hours late. Now my short layover is 3 or 4 hours shorter and I’ll be dead tired tomorrow. We’ll be fine!”

Well the USA government had far too much data by the end of that accident. In the government’s finding on flight/duty time regulations, they mentioned not only the LIT accident but the KLM accident as well. The airlines fought the changes vehemently but fortunately the government held fast. The airlines wanted to stretch the rules even after this but the government finally in 2002 won all appeals made by the airlines. As a result, nearly a quarter of a century after this accident, the biggest percentage of cause to the accident, was removed – sad it took so long and more lives.
 
notsofrqntflr
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The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 10:06 pm

Flykal,
thanks for info.

Cheers
Filip
 
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airkas1
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 10:31 pm

"Funny how some of our Dutch friends can't accept that the mistake was solely with the KLM captain."

That's because the problem WASN'T solely the fault of the KLM captain. I'm not saying he isn't to blame, cause he definitely did some things wrong.
The ATC was also to blame for their lack of rules. Watching a footballgame while on the job??
And didn't the PAN AM captain had to listen to the ATC and get off at their assigned turn instead of going a bit further, "cause they felt that would be better"?

Kas
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na
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 11:01 pm

Fact is, without the hurried KLM captain the worst crash ever would never have happened. HE was in a hurry, HE didn´t make sure everything was ok. Hell, he had hundreds of people in his plane, and he acted like a sportscar driver running late to his date.
 
flykal
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 11:03 pm

No problem NotSoFrqntFl, always happy to point people in the right direction to research the facts for themselves. And that's something that I have RESPECT for! Just added you my list. Welcome to a.net also!  Smile

Cheers,
Phil
One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time
 
FlyingColours
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 11:19 pm

The Pan Am 747 was to report clear of the runway, they never reported clear because they never left the runway.

The PA 747 proceeded past thier turn off point because it would be near impossible to manuver such a large aircraft on such a tight corner and narrow taxiway. It is simple, the nose would have gone off and into the grass/mud and then they'd be stuck. According to the diagram which FlyKal has posted shows that the turn would be too tight to accomplish and that C4 would be a much more appropriate exit. They were supposed to turn off at C3 (according to my book which has gone walkies), but elected to use C4.

Duty hours are still a problem over here in the UK, although not endangering life pilots have put pressure on passengers and crew in order to get home before their hours run out and they get stuck on some island. (Mainly happens with charters).

Although most of the blame (as far as human factors go) is laid on the KL captain for being in a hurry and the KL F/O and F/E for not questioning the captains actions further and ATC, the Pan American crew SHOULD have reported to ATC their descision to exit via C4, also if they knew that their transmition was static they should have resent it (Of course there is no way they could have known this).

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
LHSebi
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 11:24 pm

A couple of things here aren't mentioned yet, which I think are kind of important:

"the timidity of the KLM F/O"...A large factor here was the fact that the pilot of the KLM plane (Captain van Zaanten I believe) was the most well known and best training captain in the KLM fleet. He was even on the cover of the inflight magazine and also, after the accident before KLM knew what pilot was on that plane, they were trying to get a hold of van Zaanten to have him help with the investigation! Imagine you are a F/O with him, back in the days where cockpit hierarchy ruled. I don't think that you will be very eager to contradict such an icon with KLM.

Another contributing factor here was the fact that the ATC controllers of Teneriffe were not familiar with the taxiing properties of a 747, as those planes didn't frequent that airport. They did not keep in mind the fact that for a 747 to make such a high degree turn (over 100 degrees I believe), is not very easy. This is why the pilots of PanAm began questioning if the controller really wanted them to make that large turn, as controllers of airports where 747s are regular visitors would probably not have asked them to make such a turn.

Mentioned before, but I will reeiterate it: The KLM plane did NOT crash ontop of the PanAm. The KLM captain saw the PanAm flight, and pulled up very steeply. They just cleared the nose, but the main landing gear bogies quite literally ripped the roof off the PanAm 747. I remember one of the PanAm flight deck crew members saying that after the KLM hit, he could see the rudder from the flight deck itself if he just looked back. The KLM, after hitting, flew for a little further, then impacted the runway behind the PanAm.

Regarding the bulkhead repariman, I do believe he did commit suicide once it became clear that his mistake caused the accident.

Sebastian
I guess that's what happens in the end, you start thinking about the beginning.
 
oerk
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Tue Feb 17, 2004 11:27 pm


And didn't the PAN AM captain had to listen to the ATC and get off at their assigned turn instead of going a bit further, "cause they felt that would be better"?

And this matters why? The Pan Am crew never reported they were clear - yet somehow the the crew on the KLM determined they were.

The ATC was also to blame for their lack of rules. Watching a footballgame while on the job??

The contents of the communications seems fundamentally correct. The main cause of concern being the non-standard "OK" given after the KLM repeated ATC instructions ending with "We are now at take-off." However, the KLM had already started its take off run before the "OK"

Meanwhile, the flight engineer must have clearly heard...

***************
1706:25.6 APP Roger alpha one seven three six report when runway clear
1706:29.6 RDO OK, we'll report when we're clear.
APP Thank you
***************

since he asked after...

***************
1706:32.43 KLM-3 Is hij er niet af dan? {Is he not clear then?}
1706:34.1 KLM-1 Wat zeg je? {What do you say?}
1706:34.15 KLM-? Yup.
1706:34.7 KLM-3 Is hij er niet af, die Pan American? {Is he not clear that Pan American?}
1706:35.7 KLM-1 Jawel. {Oh yes. - emphatic}
***************

Now, it is assumed that the KLM captain and co-pilot somehow missed this, given they were occupied with take-off, but why didnt the flight engineer cut the power? The tower and Pan Am communications leave no doubt that they are still on the runway.

This is without mentioning that non-standard use of "We are now at take-off" by the KLM co-pilot, which few agreed indicated they were actually on the take off run and was taken by others to suggest they were merely 'at take-off position' - thus misleading the other parties involved.

I'm no expert, and please correct me if I am wrong, but I am having trouble in any attempt not to place ultimate responsibility for this incident on the KLM crew...
 
A330
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Wed Feb 18, 2004 2:30 am

In reality, Kapt. Jakob van Zanten was seen as a skygod inside KLM.
In my opinion, the basic cause of the crash was the KLM flight beginning its T/O-roll without clearance. A departure-route clearance has NEVER been a take-off clearance, also not in Schiphol my Dutch friends! The PA crew did not make any mistake, and are not to be blamed.

Inside KLM, there is still a bad feeling about this crash, so long ago. Lessons have been learned however, the industry has learned from this accident.

KLM is the oldest airline flying, and has a envyable safety reputation. Indeed they are a reliable airline, but that day in Tenerife, things went wrong.
Shiek!
 
hirisk
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Wed Feb 18, 2004 2:54 am

the crew of the PA did try to tell the tower they were still on the the runway.sadly,at the same moment, KLM keyed the mike to ask a question with atc.that's what caused the radio squeel.i'm suprised anybody survived the collision!70 pepole on clipper victor got out before it went up.may all victoms r.i.p
happy contrails
 
rjpieces
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:03 am

Wasn't the KLM captain their most senior 747 pilot or something close?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
FlyingColours
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RE: The PanAm/KLM Crash At Tenerife

Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:34 am

Rjpieces - He was the senior training captain or something to that extent, he was seen as one of the highest and most highly respected people in the company at the time. As LHSebi quite rightly pointed out, he was on the cover of the in-flight magazine and was at first (before they found out who the crew was) tried to be reached to join the investigation team on behalf of the airline.

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil