dc863
Posts: 1466
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 1999 10:52 am

Kai Tak Checkerboard Approach

Thu Feb 19, 2004 2:31 pm

Back when Kai Tak was open I was always amazed by the skill of flight crews particularly when turning at the checkerboard and lining up seemingly at the last moment for finals. Some turns at the checkerboard, I remember two aircraft that I personally saw( one was a Varig DC-10-30, the other a Lufthansa 747-230B), finished their turn at a very low level. I can only wonder what the pedestrians below must've thought when seeing or hearing these planes make their approach. I don't know what the MDA was for Kai Tak but those two planes must've come close to it. Anyone else ever witness an unusually low turn and approach at ol' Kai Tak?
 
N754PR
Posts: 2909
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 1999 10:03 pm

RE: Kai Tak Checkerboard Approach

Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:59 pm

VARIG DC-10!!, They only started service to Hong Kong with the 744's. Their DC-10's have not been to Hong Kong.

I could start to tell you some of the things I've seen but there is not enough room to type it all  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

This however is a good example:

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Photo © Daryl Chapman



Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
crjdispatchkid
Posts: 97
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 3:15 pm

RE: Kai Tak Checkerboard Approach

Thu Feb 19, 2004 6:15 pm

Here are two simply amazing (but probably normal) landings at the ill-fated Kai Tak. Thank God for rudders!

http://www.flightdispatch.net/media/747HKG.mpg

http://www.flightdispatch.net/media/AZHKG.mpg


-All I ever wanted to do was sit on checkerboard hill with a beer in my hand and a smile on my face.  Sad
Thanks...C-Ya...Bye
 
Heinz
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2000 1:34 am

RE: Kai Tak Checkerboard Approach

Thu Feb 19, 2004 6:38 pm

I have seen Varig's MD11s on numerous occasions at both Kai Tak and CLK between 1995 and 1998. Didn't know they operated 744s into HKG.
 
TR
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu May 03, 2001 1:28 am

RE: Kai Tak Checkerboard Approach

Thu Feb 19, 2004 6:57 pm

Here you are Heinz - Varig 744s at HKG:


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Photo © Martin Oertle
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Photo © Andrew Hunt



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Photo © Andrew Hunt
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Photo © Carlos A. Morillo Doria

 
Heinz
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2000 1:34 am

RE: Kai Tak Checkerboard Approach

Thu Feb 19, 2004 7:11 pm

TR, thanks for the 744 info ! Though I first got to Kai Tak in 1986, I have never seen any RG 744s there.

-------------------------------------------
In my experience, the 'best' airlines for 'out of the ordinary' approaches were the following (among others): Altialia, UPS, Fedex, NCA, United.
 
TR
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu May 03, 2001 1:28 am

RE: Kai Tak Checkerboard Approach

Thu Feb 19, 2004 7:22 pm

Heinz, Varig only operated the 744 for a very short period (1991-1994 if I remember correct). My very first 744 experience actually took place on PP-VPI in 1992 from Copenhagen to London Heathrow. So that aircraft - now with Air New Zealand and ZK-SUH - is something special to me. Funny that I also flew with it 10 years later from AKL to LAX. It´s a small world!
 
s.p.a.s.
Posts: 916
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2001 2:04 pm

RE: Kai Tak Checkerboard Approach

Thu Feb 19, 2004 9:17 pm

Dc863,

I don't know what the MDA was for Kai Tak but those two planes must've come close to it.

According to my IALs, MDA for the IGS approach into Kai Tak was 680ft, after this you disregard IGS indications, and follow a visual right turn to the right (46° offset).. If approaching using the VOR app, MDA increased to 1050ft..

Perhaps the VOR app was a little bit more difficult, as the final app turn was tighter, offset angle was 91°.

Rds

RS

"ad astra per aspera"
 
rb211
Posts: 413
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 1:09 am

RE: Kai Tak Checkerboard Approach

Fri Feb 20, 2004 2:25 am

I had to check my own pants after watching the MD-11!! I'm surprised he/she didn't blow some tyres.
Airline photography. Whether they're fully clothed, butt naked, having issues or confused I'm taking pictures!!
 
dc863
Posts: 1466
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 1999 10:52 am

RE: Kai Tak Checkerboard Approach

Fri Feb 20, 2004 6:17 am

I'm sure it was a Varig DC-10-30, of course my memory is probably playing tricks on me.
 
n757kw
Posts: 387
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 3:08 am

RE: Kai Tak Checkerboard Approach

Fri Feb 20, 2004 6:31 am

Yikes, I work for KE and that clip does not exactly make me feel good. Is it the angle, because it looks like on both the MD-11 and the B747 that they were awfully close to having a main gear in the grass.

N757KW
"What we've got here, is failure to communicate." from Cool Hand Luke
 
klyk1980
Posts: 145
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2004 9:58 am

RE: Kai Tak Checkerboard Approach

Fri Feb 20, 2004 10:24 am

I am very sure Varig used to operate MD-11 for HKG route instead of B744.

During my days in Hong Kong, I did many final approachs over Kowloon and those low approach and checkerboard turn for landings were simply amazing, especially at night like a home-coming parade!!

Although Kia Tak was very packed, the airport was efficient. Taking bus between the aircraft and the terminal maybe troublesome, but provide an absolute great opportunity to getting close with those bigbirds, unlike in most airports, enter the aircraft through jetbridge.
 
warren747sp
Posts: 979
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 7:51 am

RE: Kai Tak Checkerboard Approach

Sat Feb 21, 2004 8:11 am

the most exciting in the world ever. Once I was fortunate enough to sit in the cockpit with Dragonair A330 landing in Hong Kong. One of the few natural highs in life.
747SP
 
yulguy
Posts: 201
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 8:09 am

RE: Kai Tak Checkerboard Approach

Sat Feb 21, 2004 8:52 am

Landing at Kai Tak was always one of my favourite parts about going to HKG. It was really one of those things that gave the city its unique character. Sitting on the right side of the China Airlines flights from Taipei just before touching down...totally cool. The new airport's impressive, but it definitely is not the same. In the neighbourhood just by the airport, the jumbos seemed to be just barely missing the rooftops.
"Celui qui diffère de moi, loin de me léser, m'enrichit." - Saint-Exupéry
 
ScottishLaddie
Posts: 2309
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:30 am

RE: Kai Tak Checkerboard Approach

Sat Feb 21, 2004 8:59 am

Can't imagine what the passengers were thinking on KE and AZ, I wonder how many overhead bins fell open on that landing!  Laugh out loud
Any more video clips they're great!  Big thumbs up
 
CX777
Posts: 153
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 1:43 pm

RE: Kai Tak Checkerboard Approach

Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:19 am

This was my first hand experience with RG -400 @ HKG.


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Photo © Rajesh Changela



HKG was unique in its ways (traffic, apporach, location). Cannot imagine there will ever be another field like that for spotters.

RC
 
N754PR
Posts: 2909
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 1999 10:03 pm

RE: Kai Tak Checkerboard Approach

Sat Feb 21, 2004 11:53 am

I was lucky enough to get two jumpseat landings on 13, a PR A333 and a QF 763 just weeks before Kai Tak closed!
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
Espion007
Posts: 1653
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 9:29 am

RE: Kai Tak Checkerboard Approach

Sat Feb 21, 2004 12:22 pm

HKG was unique in its ways (traffic, apporach, location). Cannot imagine there will ever be another field like that for spotters.

the only thing we have now is SXM.Its a tropical paridise with everything anyone would ever want-but kai tak was amazing and would never be replaced.

btw this photo is scary.If youre standing ontop of a building almost looking DOWN at the windows while the 747 is still lining up with the runway-well im speechless.


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Snakes on a Plane!
 
v1vRfly
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2004 1:45 pm

RE: Kai Tak Checkerboard Approach

Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:46 am

You can view the Jeppesen approach at this site:
http://www.pilot-tom.com/IGS13/
This approach began over the CH VOR, or the CC NDB (same location). The trick to flying this approach was to offset slightly to the left on the localizer course of 088 (1 to 1 1/2 dot) which would allow a longer final to sort out strong crosswinds, which were prevalent. Unfortunately, poor visibility played a factor as well, especially during early morning arrivals with the sun rising in the direction of flight. Offsets in this manner did not help in low visibility conditions.
The approach states that after the Missed Approach Point (MAP), 2.2 on the localizer or the MM, the pilot is to fly a 'visual right turn to rwy.' This meant that the either the checkerboard, the arcing lead-in lights, or the runway should be in sight to descend further while making the 48 degree turn to the runway. Many times the Captain would have to trust the FO's eyesight until halfway through the turn when the Captain could see the runway.
The glideslope provided descent guidance, but with a warning that continuing on the flight path after the Middle Marker (MM) would 'not provide terrain clearance.' The distance from the MAP to the displaced runway threshold was 1.6 miles. A normal glidepath at this distance would put the aircraft at 480 feet. If the pilot stayed at 680 feet until the MAP, then the aircraft would be 200 feet high at this point. Therefore, the pilot had to be 'visual' at some point prior to the MAP to continue descent to make a 'normal' landing (true of most non-precision approaches). The displaced threshold caused quite a few aircraft to go low on final, nearly dragging the gear into the tower and terminal buildings, until they realized the 1148 foot displacement. There have been many abnormal landings there due to all these factors.

The LDA Rwy 26 Approach in Honolulu is very similar, but crosswinds and low ceilings make this sporty, not the sun or the visibility.
 
phatfarmlines
Posts: 1230
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: Kai Tak Checkerboard Approach

Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:52 am

The LDA Rwy 26 Approach in Honolulu is very similar, but crosswinds and low ceilings make this sporty, not the sun or the visibility.

In addition, the JFK Canarsie VOR/Parkway Visual Rwy 13 L/R, the LGA L.I.E. Visual to Rwy 31, and the BWI Interstate Visual Rwy 33L. While these are probably easier approaches in comparison to the HKG IGS Rwy 13, these also have some elements of the latter.

What are the other published approaches for other airports that are a derivative of the HKG IGS Rwy 13?
 
trex8
Posts: 4576
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

AZ Landing

Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:37 am

Hey, could the AZ DC10 pilot have been the same guy who was flying the CI MD11 which flipped at Chek lap Kok????
 
N754PR
Posts: 2909
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 1999 10:03 pm

RE: Kai Tak Checkerboard Approach

Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:52 pm

Just to answer the last question:

The pilot of the AE/CI MD-11 was Italian, so its possible!!
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
warren747sp
Posts: 979
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 7:51 am

RE: Kai Tak Checkerboard Approach

Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:02 am

I understand the Italian pilot fled back to Italy immediately after the flip-over.
I hope he is no longer flying.
747SP
 
SpeedbirdHeavy
Posts: 414
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 3:39 pm

RE: Kai Tak Checkerboard Approach

Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:25 am

What was the actual purpose of the checkerboard? Was it there to warn pilots to stay away from the hills, or was it there for pilots to aim for in order to pick up the IGS?

Also, what are the plans for the Kai Tak land?

I hope there will be some landmark that there was an airport there at one point in time.
China Airlines...Come fry with us!
 
kurt
Posts: 402
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 10:04 am

RE: Kai Tak Checkerboard Approach

Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:35 am

I too am wondering what the checkerboard was for. Is this a common navigational feature or was Kai Tak unique in this?
 
nudelhirsch
Posts: 1371
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2003 6:20 am

RE: Kai Tak Checkerboard Approach

Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:02 am

As it was mentioned above...is there a chart of the canarsie approach anywhere available on the web? i once did a search, found anything, just no chart...

would appreciate a link...
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
Pilawt
Posts: 104
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 3:48 pm

RE: Kai Tak Checkerboard Approach

Tue Feb 24, 2004 10:51 am

Potomac posted a link a couple of months ago.

See http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1295185

Scroll down to Reply #7.

The official name of the Canarsie approach is "Parkway Visual Rwy 13L/R"
 
User avatar
LAX
Posts: 2186
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2000 11:06 am

RE: Kai Tak Checkerboard Approach

Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:33 pm

>> "I am very sure Varig used to operate MD-11 for HKG route instead of B744." <<

Yes, they did.
There are multiple Varig MD-11s shown on the "Just Planes Videos" series of Kai Tak programs, from 1995-1996.

 
hawaii12
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 8:11 pm

RE: Kai Tak Checkerboard Approach

Tue Feb 24, 2004 8:25 pm

those videos were awesome. does anyone know where i can get more videos of heavy's landing at kai tak?
cheers
 
nudelhirsch
Posts: 1371
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2003 6:20 am

RE: Kai Tak Checkerboard Approach

Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:02 pm

thanks Pilawt...I really was searching for that chart, great link!
Putana da Seatbeltz!

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