Setjet
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Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 4:14 am

I just found this picture of Lufthansa Cargo's 747 D-ABYZ with serious hull damage due to some sort of maintenance mishap. Descritption says that the airplane will be written off.



Any more details on the mishap?

The aircraft in better days:


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Sascha Haberkorn
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Photo © Michael F. McLaughlin


 
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PW100
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 4:35 am

Yeah, saw those photo's yesterday. There are more, but I can not post them.
Apparently the aircraft was being lowered from its jacks, but they "forgot" to remove the tail support/jack.
I would assume that its Beyond Economical Repair [BER].

Quite appropriate, the Cargo WOW markings . . . .

PW100
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AV8AJET
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 4:49 am

Ouch what a mistake!!! Sad loss of another great B747! I hope LH Cargo ends up getting some 744F's in the future.
"To fly or not to fly there is no question!"
 
Bookin
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 7:01 pm

The WOW mistake.

If this were a 744F therwould ther have been any attempt at a repair?

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L-188
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 7:41 pm

Yeah, that WOW sticker seems strangely appropriate.
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Bookin
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 7:52 pm

WOW!

How the $#*@! did they besome so stupid! What's the german word for moron??

Does anyone know if LH is planing on purchaisn a replacement? There are a lot of 742 & 743 sitting in the dessert just waiting to be converted!

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TriStar500
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 8:20 pm

Bookin,
The LCAG is currently performing a fleet rollover, which will see the B742 fleet being flagged out to Air Atlanta Icelandic by next year. They will be operated on behalf of LH until 2006, when the standardization with MD-11's is complete. LCAG will have 19 MD-11 freighters by 2006.
So no, there will be no replacement by another B742 freighter.Except for maybe an interim lease.
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
Bookin
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:00 pm


Why would LH do such a thin?

The 747 has more capacity, more range, etc.

MD-11's do only need 2 crewmembers. But why the change??
Were they going to get rid of beautiful D-ABYZ before the WOW incident??
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TriStar500
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:03 pm

Well, it is all a matter of supply and demand. Since 2001, LCAG has experienced a strong decline of demand for cargo services. With many cheaper competitors around, their strategy is to focus on more profitable freight segments with lesser volume but higher yields.
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
9V-SPF
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:17 pm

The 747 has more capacity, more range, etc

According to LH´s website (see below), the MD-11F has a greater range than the 747-200F.

http://konzern.lufthansa.com/en/html/ueber_uns/flotte/index.html

Daniel
 
Bookin
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:21 pm

According to LH´s website (see below), the MD-11F has a greater range than the 747-200F.

Only when fully loaded

If you load a 742F with the same load as an MD-11, the 747 would still have greater range.

At max payload the 747 would have less range than the MD-11, but this max payload is way over the MD's.
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TriStar500
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:27 pm

The max payload of the B742 is only 7 metric tons above the one of the MD-11F.
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Paulianer
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:35 pm

Here are some more pics:









Greetings
Tobi

[Edited 2004-02-22 13:39:18]
Tobias Rose - Hamburg (HAM/EDDH) & (XFW/EDHI) - Canon EOS D60 - ICQ: 235621277 - MSN: Tobias.Rose@gmx.de
 
Bookin
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:39 pm

Thanx Tobi!

WOW AGAIN!

Any picture from the interior deck??
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TriStar500
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:41 pm

Funny thing, but it is possible that this B742 will be worth more now when LH dismantles it and sells all useable parts than it would have been if it was sold as an entire aircraft if the accident would not have happened.

Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
Setjet
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:50 pm

Well, if this would be true than it would make more sense to dismantle B747s than to fly them.

Just think about it:
Lufthansa could stop flying and start to dismantle all their planes and make big bucks!

One thing you are forgetting is labour cost, I think.
 
Bookin
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:55 pm

SetJet is right

Mechanics especially A&P's are expensive to feed!
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TriStar500
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:57 pm

Setjet,

Granted this is just a thought. But haven't we seen a bunch of relatively youthful aircraft (e.g. some US B734's) being dismantled recently, because they were worth more as spare parts than as complete planes?

D-ABYZ was mfd in 1986 and is therefore 18 years old by now. Considering that LH is using their long haul equipment quite heavily, it will already have a lot of hours and cycles on the clock.

IMO one of the few points speaking against this idea is that LH's reputation for perfect maintenance also equates in a higher resale value of their aircraft. Also, freighters are probably more in demand right now than passenger aircraft.

You see, it is just a theory. I don't want to let it sound like it will certainly be like I said.  Smile


[Edited 2004-02-22 13:58:19]
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
Bookin
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D-ABYZ A Total Loss? LH Mx Reputation

Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:03 pm

"TriStar500 said,
LH's reputation for perfect maintenance also equates in a higher resale value of their aircraft."
Not any more!!!!

Reputation for perfect stupidity in maintenance more likely.

D-ABYZ was in for maintenance on the stands and instead it looks got folded!
How good of a maintenance is that??



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Setjet
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:06 pm

I guess the point is to let the dismantling be done by a specialist like Evergreen in Tucson. They have cheaper labour costs and know how to rip a B747 apart.

Germany might just be too expensive for this, especially if you have to use highly paid Lufthansa Technik specialist which are trained to fix airplanes, not take them apart.

Interesting question would be if this B747 could be flown at a lower altitude (FL100) unpressurised to a better specialist, granted that you would reinforce the structure of the hull before that flight.
 
TriStar500
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:06 pm

Bookin,

Yeah well, the entire operation is unprofessional because of a handful of morons, who screw up big time once?  Yeah sure

Maybe if we should start another thread about the worst maintenance screwups, you'd be surprised how many reputable airlines managed to burn down and cripple perfectly good airframes during maintenance. It could become actually quite a funny thread!  Smile



[Edited 2004-02-22 14:07:40]
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
Setjet
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:11 pm

Would be a funny thread indeed!

TriStar500, you want to start it?
 
TriStar500
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:13 pm

Nah, you go ahead.  Smile
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
Bookin
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:16 pm

Can anyone tell me when the last 747 was totalled during routine everyday Mx??

I can't remember the last 747 to be totalled during MX, of course there's the Saudi 747 that taxied into a ditch, but that doesn't really count.

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Setjet
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:17 pm

I am just about to start a different thread, should also be quite entertaining!  Big grin
 
godbless
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:19 pm

Reputation for perfect stupidity in maintenance more likely.
Even they are not perfect...
I guess taking your statement I can say that you have a reputation for perfect stupidity aswell for, let's say braking things... Since I bet that you have broken quite a few things in the past 21-25 years. I hope you get my point... Nobody is perfect not even a company such as Lufthansa. At least as soon as there is a human being working there mistakes can happen.

Max
 
Bookin
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:24 pm

No, I don't break many things at all.

I fly them! And never have broken one , yet!

Of course, to be human is to make mistakes!

But a $$40+ million mistake makes a darn good thread and some darn good pictures to look at and go WOW!
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Setjet
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:28 pm

Talking about human mistakes. I just started a new thread that might become entertaining:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1416804/
 
N754PR
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:46 pm

Has anyone confirmed a jack was left in place when they lowered the aircraft?
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RareBear
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:43 am

If you look at the photos, the tail jack is still there.
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Delboy
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:11 am

Setjet

Trust me, this aircraft will NEVER fly again, not at 10,000 ft, not unpressurised, not ever. I'm amazed anyone would even ask this question!!!

I doubt whether any licensing authority would give permission, LH will not spend a lot of money 'repairing' it for such a flight, given it's age. LH will take the insurance money and run as fast as they can.
 
Setjet
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:16 am

Sorry for asking...  Big grin

An Air Namibia 747 was damaged by a loader in LHR a couple of years ago, the fuselage was punctured in the lower half, nevertheless they received a clearance to fly to FRA in FL100 without pax for repair.

Although I have to admit that the damage was beyond comparison to this Lufthansa 747.

Still, I can't imagine that Lufthansa will use their own technicians to rip the poor 747 apart. They are too expensive and they are not the specialist required for such a task.



 
Spacepope
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Tue Feb 24, 2004 7:23 am

The airframe only had 80,000 hours on it, It could still have gone another 35,000 easily. The plane probably is worth more as parts now, especially with all the Evergreen and Kalitta birds shuttling stuff around for the redeployment.
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buslover
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Tue Feb 24, 2004 8:38 pm

Hey folks,

cool it! Nobody made a mistake, it looks like the hydraulic equipment had a problem while jacking up the airplane.

It will be fixed and return to service.

So all you smart people, in future first find the facts and then start blaming!

[Edited 2004-02-24 12:52:17]
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Spacepope
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:37 pm

Just a question of statistics:

When an airframe pressure hull has this sort of traumatic damage and is repaired, what is the likelyhood of a catastrophic failure as compared as to before? We've seen 747s before in Japan and China that have come apart after repairs were made in this general area after mere tailstrikes. Is the 747 freighter market strong enough to warrant investing millions to repair this airframe instead of taking the insurance write-off?
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Delboy
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Tue Feb 24, 2004 10:54 pm


Hi Buslover

I doubt it very much, it's one thing to repair punctured fuselages but this is major, major structural damage.

YZ will not fly again.
 
sk
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:19 pm

An employee told me, that the aircraft is going to be repaired an will be in the air within some weeks again.

We will see what's right or not.
 
airlinelover
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:52 am

It looks to me like there was a rope or something around the top of that portion of the aircraft, and somehow it was pulled down a lot further then seems possible, bending or smashing a lot of the hull inwards..

How the heck did this happen? I've not seen any comments here that give specifics except about cranes or loaders or jacks.. still makes no sense..

And can't they just use it for spares for their own AC??

Chris
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Delboy
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:06 am

Sk

If your information is correct, I'll be so shocked. From the pictures, the damage looks terminal.

Maybe YZ will fly again!!
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Lufthansa Cargo 747 D-ABYZ A Total Loss?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:04 am

Don´t rule out the possibility of LH Technik to repair the plane. For one, the plane is already in a facility equiped to repair heavy damage. The tricky part will be to design a jig which will hold both the tail and the fuselage in the proper position relative to each other while the damaged skin and stringers are being replaced.
When I wasdoing my apprenticeship with LH Technik in SXF yearsago they had a badly damaged 737-300. The plane got hit by a truck in MUC. After an assessment of the damage ( skin, stringers and frames damaged on the L/H side aft of the wing) the plane was ferried w/o cabin pressure to SXF. The plane was a write-off, but the sheeties in SXF got told that theywould have all time theyneeded and they should just look at it if they could repair it. They built a jig to hold the tail and the fuselage and then repaired the plane. Boeing got so impressed they offered LH the position as Boeing crash team for Europe for the 737. LH management refused the offer.

Jan
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