dreamcraft
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The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:03 am

To my fellow forum colleagues,

How does the 777 compare with it's direct competitors cost-wise. Both in terms of acquisition and operating costs?

And why would an airline purchase an A330 or A340 over a B777 or even a B764?
 
ssides
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:18 am

I'll admit that I'm not 100% sure, but when compared to the A340, it's hard for me to see how a 4-engine aircraft is more efficient than a 2-engine aircraft. The A340's competition is more or less "split" between the 777 and the 747.

As far as the A330 is concerened, I don't really know. The 777 appears to be much more popular, so I would guess that it is a very economical aircraft. I've heard that the 777's engines -- the most powerful ever built -- are also among the most efficient.

As far as the 767-400 is concerned, I believe that aircraft was developed for more short-haul, high density routes. Plus, airlines with large 767 fleets (e.g. Delta) have the advantage of fleet commonality by using the 764. I think that explains its desirability for US airlines.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
BWIA 772
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:08 am

Dreamcraft

The 330 seems to be geared more to the 767 market rather than the 777 hence the 7e7 programme.

The 764 was an aircraft built for CO and Delta as has been said numerous time on this forum. The 340 seems to me to be the real competition to the 777 we have to wait and see if the latest variants the 345 and 346 will but a dent into that market segment.
Eagles Soar!
 
yul332LX
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:01 am

The 773ER is Boeing’s most expensive jet. Last I heard, the 773ER was listed between $200-230 million while the direct competitor; the A340-600 was listed at around $180 million.

The 772LR sells around $200 million while the A345 is around 170 million. I don't have price infos on the 772ER and the 343.

With the recent rise of the Euro vs. $US, Airbus may have increased the price a little bit to compensated for the difference but it’s highly unlikely the price has increased more than a few million.
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DutchFlyer
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:08 am

List price isn't the main issue here. Political factor contribute much more. If French government want a particular airliner buying Airbuses then a lot of compensation (discount) is given. In other word Airbus is buying it's way to the top of the market.

Besides list price the operational costs are most important. I don't have any information on that. Anyone else?
 
mrwayne
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:18 am

The cost differences betwwen a 777 and 747 are purely on runing costs, surely. As a 747 burns 10 tonnes of fuel an hour, compared to the 777 which only burns 6 tonnes an hour amd carries more cargo.



 
yul332LX
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:48 am

List price isn't the main issue here. Political factor contribute much more

Dutchflyer, Political factors can only contribute for a fragment of negotiation concerning the price airlines actually pay. If the 773ER is listed 30 million more than the A346, it will be a long shot for Boeing even if it provides discounts on the listed price.

The A346 being 30 million cheaper than the 773ER should give Airbus an edge. That is why the listed price is still important. However,I agree with you that there may be considerable differences between listed and actual prices but the bottom line is, for airlines, operating costs and reliability are just as important as acquisition cost.

E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
DutchFlyer
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:56 am

@YUL332LX

I believe operating costs are more important than acquisition cost. In Europe governments still give low rates to the airline industry. So a few million more or less won't be the decisive factor. Using less fuel, lower maintenance cost, shorter turn-around times will be the decisive factor.
 
ssides
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:06 am

The A346 being 30 million cheaper than the 773ER should give Airbus an edge. That is why the listed price is still important.

In Europe governments still give low rates to the airline industry.

All this is true to a certain degree, but the fact is that no airline pays the list price to Boeing or Airbus. Usually, for competitive negotiating reasons, the ultimate price paid by airlines for their aircraft are kept confidential.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
warren747sp
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:18 am

Wasn't the Ex Canadian prime minister paid a consultancy fee or commission by Airbus and thus the complete change of fleet by A/C?
Boeing is limited by US law on how business can be conducted after the Lockheed fiasco in Japan a couple of decades ago.
So it is not just the price of the equipment in question but other variable factors.
747SP
 
yul332LX
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:23 am

Wasn't the Ex Canadian prime minister paid a consultancy fee or commission by Airbus and thus the complete change of fleet by A/C?

NO.

The PM you are refering to is Brian Mulroney. It was later determined that these accusations were erroneous.

Boeing is limited by US law on how business can be conducted after the Lockheed fiasco in Japan a couple of decades ago.

Oh yeah? What about the recent tanker deal that is now in jeopardy because of Sears and Druyun's discussions? Boeing can play that game just as well as Airbus...
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Adria
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:31 am

Just remember the Singapore 777 deal, SAS change of order from MD-95 to B736......... this shows how dirty Boeing can play
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:14 am

this shows how dirty Boeing can play

Yes... shame on them for giving their customers fair and legal deals in order to secure their product over the competitor's...  Insane
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Adria
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:13 pm

˝Yes... shame on them for giving their customers fair and legal deals in order to secure their product over the competitor's... ˝............ fair? I would say that the A343 is a far better aircraft compared to the 772ER If Boeing is so desperate that buys the A343 just to sell their 772,legal?.......... well those tanker deals show If Boeing is legal or not
 
MITaero
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:38 pm

Adria,

Your well-conceived arguments are always shining examples for us to follow. It is clear that you have studied these issues in detail. Thank you for contributing such intelligent opinions.

Sincerely,
Nobody

-----------------

>Oh yeah? What about the recent tanker deal that is now in jeopardy because of Sears and Druyun's discussions? Boeing can play that game just as well as Airbus...

Oh, and forget the fact that Boeing fired people and did not try to cover it up. And the fact that Boeing is such a huge company, and people are bound to transgress appropriate ethical standards (only to be dealt with swiftly, but with a ton of media attention..).
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:09 pm

perhaps you'd like to share with us exactly what was unfair and/or illegal about said transaction....?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
airxliban
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:12 pm

As far as the 767-400 is concerned, I believe that aircraft was developed for more short-haul, high density routes. Plus, airlines with large 767 fleets (e.g. Delta) have the advantage of fleet commonality by using the 764.

Fleet commonality aside, doesn't the 764 have the same cockpit as the 777?
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
MD-11 forever
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:14 pm

@ConcordeBoy

I agree with you, that at least the SQ trade-in deal was legal and fair. Nevertheless, it gives me a bit of a surprise to see that Boeing had to buy the A343's back (I don't know if anybody knows if there was some profit for SQ in this deal...) to "convince" SQ to get the 777. If the 777 is that much superior compared to any other plane flying these days, as you never stop to claim, one should think that that's reason enough for SQ to buy it, without being offered a trade in deal. Don't you think?

Cheers, Thomas

[Edited 2004-02-23 09:16:30]
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:31 pm

considering that SQ just spent multiple billions on A340s, less than 15mo before Boeing offered the 772ER...... a *little* more of an incentive than the latter's optimal performance specs was needed

[Edited 2004-02-23 09:32:46]
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Motorhussy
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitor

Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:34 pm

Well from what little I know about supply, demand, brand marketing, business ethics versus business pratice, human nature, our ability to create (and destroy) etc, I know that both companies make magnificent aircraft and neither will leave a stone unturned in order to make that sale over the other...

And this includes enlisting governments in their marketing plans. We'd all be naive to believe that one or either of them played fair all of the time.

MH
come visit the south pacific
 
MD-11 forever
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:24 pm

@ConcordeBoy

"considering that SQ just spent multiple billions on A340s, less than 15mo before Boeing offered the 772ER...... a *little* more of an incentive than the latter's optimal performance specs was needed"

...Your answer just raises bigger questions.... I assume SQ was aware of the , what you call, "optimal performance specs" when they ordered the 343's correct? So in my opinion the *little* incentive you mention was quite a significant one...

Cheers, Thomas
 
Adria
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:02 pm

. ¨If the 777 is that much superior compared to any other plane flying these days, as you never stop to claim, one should think that that's reason enough for SQ to buy it, without being offered a trade in deal. Don't you think¨....... that is exactly my point....

ConcordeBoy:

I don't remember to say the deal was illegal or unfair.

MITaero:
¨Oh, and forget the fact that Boeing fired people and did not try to cover it up¨...... Yes you are right, what a fantastic thing to do
 
donder10
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:36 pm

I would say that the A343 is a far better aircraft compared to the 772ER If Boeing is so desperate that buys the A343 just to sell their 772,legal?.......... well those tanker deals show If Boeing is legal or not

Far better product?The 343 failed to meet its performance requirements for SQ.The 772 hasn't.
 
warren747sp
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:55 pm

what's the problem taken in a trade on buying new equipment?
SQ are just very smart people they get to try to A340-300 (No Good). Now they get to play with the A345 for a while before they decide to trade up to B777LR.
Boeing sells equipment virtual alonge and the reverse can't be said true.
No Swiss Bank A/C. etc.
747SP
 
Guest

RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:04 pm

I get bored when I hear that Boeing is fighting against an unfair competitor cause Airbus gets supports and supports.
I remember Saudia wanted to buy Airbus and US was spying, heared Airbus offer and told to Boeing. So they gave better offer (hmmmmm, that fair?)
 
yul332LX
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:11 am

Oh, and forget the fact that Boeing fired people and did not try to cover it up.

Boeing only fired their Chef financial because the story was about to blow in the media. They HAD to do it; they did not choose to do it. Boeing has no merit at all for the actions taken after wise.

And the fact that Boeing is such a huge company, and people are bound to transgress appropriate ethical standards (only to be dealt with swiftly, but with a ton of media attention..).

So, Boeing being a major company is an excuse for them to have an incompetent Chef Financial Officer. It’s commonsense  Yeah sure
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dynkrisolo
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:05 am


Boeing only fired their Chef financial because the story was about to blow in the media.

...

Boeing being a major company is an excuse for them to have an incompetent Chef Financial Officer


Since when has Boeing had a culinary operation?  Big grin
 
wingman
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:18 am

Stefandote,

Your comment is ironic in that what the US "spying" revealed in Saudia case was patently illegal behavior by Airbus in providing huge bribes to Saudia officals to secure the order. When this illegal activity was made public Saudia was forced to reverse their decision and as I recall, there was not a serious amount of complaining coming from Airbus. They had just been caught red-handed.

And before anyone suggests something iditoic, France and every other country in the EU also e in commercial espionage.
 
yul332LX
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:58 am


Since when has Boeing had a culinary operation?

Since I had a brain cramp and forget the ˝i˝...  Wink/being sarcastic
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:59 am

I assume SQ was aware of the , what you call, "optimal performance specs" when they ordered the 343's correct?

I'm sure they were... but after their M11 fiasco, followed by the A343's failure to meet their expectations; they werent exactly keen on jumping to yet another 300seater which might be a flop. Fortunately, the 772ER was the one to finally come through for them. (at least when it comes to replacing the A340s... the A310s are another matter)
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Paddy
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitor

Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:27 am

I remember Saudia wanted to buy Airbus and US was spying, heared Airbus offer and told to Boeing. So they gave better offer (hmmmmm, that fair?)

The Saudia deal was a heavily political deal that had nothing to do with "spying". The US, France and Germany all sent Presidents, Prime Ministers, Transportation Ministers/Secretaries etc. to try and sway the royal family into choosing Boeing or Airbus. Not surprising, as there was a multi-billion dollar order on the line. France played the "We'll help with Palestine" card and the US played the "We stopped Saddam in Kuwait and we'll stop Milosevic in Bosnia" card. In the end Boeing got the order because at the time, the consortium nations could not pledge support to the Muslims being annihilated in Bosnia and the US could. Sometimes orders can be that political....
 
MITaero
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Tue Feb 24, 2004 6:11 am

>Boeing has no merit at all for the actions taken after wise.

And Phil Condit stepping down to give Boeing a clean start was just a figment of my imagination.

They do care about ethics at Boeing, as much as you have already made up your mind that they don't. There is no excuse for such actions, but clearly the matter was dealt with in an appropriate manner.
 
PVD757
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Tue Feb 24, 2004 6:35 am

People seem to forget how much of a capital intensive decision it is to go out and buy airplanes this big. SQ negotiated a good deal when they switched over. In the long run, Boeing showed SQ that price is not the only reason to buy a plane. I think that SQ will not hesitate in removing other Airbii from thier inventory if they find better service. Airbus also learned a painful lesson as they try to make good on the other deliveries. As far as pointing fingers at ethics, none of them play fairly, not even the RJ crowd. This part is a dead issue. Most every major aircraft design in the world had something to do with either military or government involvement.
 
yul332LX
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Tue Feb 24, 2004 6:59 am

There is no excuse for such actions

My point exactly...

but clearly the matter was dealt with in an appropriate manner.

...so there was a matter.

Even if:

Boeing is limited by US law on how business can be conducted after the Lockheed fiasco in Japan a couple of decades ago.

Boeing and Airbus, and others for that matter, can play rough and sometimes, they get caught.
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
MITaero
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Tue Feb 24, 2004 7:15 am

Of course there was a "matter," but only involving a few people (although still severe). It's just a false analogy to compare something like this to a company-wide policy.

All I'm saying is that, unfortunately, this happens with many companies, and the only way to deal with it is by better training of employees and punishing those who make mistakes.
 
wingman
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Tue Feb 24, 2004 7:31 am

Some interesting information on Airbus from a leading European business publication. Note that when US companies are caught committing crimes there are serious consequences. Not so with Airbus despite a long history history of bribery.

http://www.transparency.org.au/documents/Economist12.6.pdf
 
yul332LX
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Tue Feb 24, 2004 8:00 am

MITaero,

We finally agreed! Big grin
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
warren747sp
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Tue Feb 24, 2004 8:16 am

Hi, Wingman
Thanks for the most interesting link for our Airbus friends and supporters.
I guess when you are trying to sell an inferior product even at a discount
leaves Airbus with no choice but to......
I can not recall the last time Boeing was accused of giving bribery or kickback!
747SP
 
Scorpio
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:32 am

Warren747sp,

I guess when you are trying to sell an inferior product even at a discount
leaves Airbus with no choice but to......


No doubt you're now going to share with us why exactly Airbus planes are inferior to Boeing planes, with your superior intellect and all.

This should be good for a laugh...
 
warren747sp
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:50 am

Hey, Scorpio
So the Economist which is an respected European publication is just full of it, Right?
and what is your IQ score?
747SP
 
yul332LX
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:43 am

I can not recall the last time Boeing was accused of giving bribery or kickback!

Then, you have a bad memory Laugh out loud
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
Thrust
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:49 pm

NOT TRYING TO START A BOEING VS. AIRBUS THREAD...
As of late, I will admit it is true that Airbus has been able to sell their aircraft at lower prices than the competition. I will agree, the 777 should be much cheaper to operate than the A330. Unfortunately, it seems these days that the saying two engines are better than four for economic purposes can no longer be generally applied. Apparently 2 is not better than 4 in more ways than I thought. Whether its the European economies or what, I have no idea how Airbus is able to pull this off. Simply astounding Wow!
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
cloudy
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:47 pm

All this is true to a certain degree, but the fact is that no airline pays the list price to Boeing or Airbus. Usually, for competitive negotiating reasons, the ultimate price paid by airlines for their aircraft are kept confidential.
------

The price is indeed confidential. Nobody knows for at least a few months to a year. But public companies have to disclose financial statements. Both EADS(owns most of Airbus) and Boeing are public companies, as are most airlines. My guess is a good analyst could calculate or at least give an educated guess on a deal's price and terms.
 
9v-svc
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitor

Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:13 pm

Ohhh gosh , this thread is giving me a good laugh. For example 777 is much cheaper to operate then the A330 ? Don't get me wrong here I love both planes. But can you please check your facts first?

[Edited 2004-02-24 08:13:39]
Airliners is the wings of my life.
 
707437
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:18 pm

Well then will anyone take a stab at why a state run airline AF bought the 777, 330 & 340 and happily operates them all?

All aircraft a fine but in certain niches (route load factor) each one has its own edge. . . Enough said. . .

Both Companies have plenty of sleaze but this is more a function of the particular customer not the manufacturers per se.

Besides if a bribe isn't offered. . . For some cultures that is just down right rude.

And yes the famous Economist artilce is accurate and is a legitimate chapter of recent aviation history.

Where I live the Rednecks have their Chevy versus Ford tirades. Are any of you so sophisticated? LOL Maybe I ought to switch to a NASCAR forum.
 
Scorpio
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Tue Feb 24, 2004 10:29 pm

Warren747sp,

So the Economist which is an respected European publication is just full of it, Right?

You claimed Airbuses are inferior to Boeings. You've failed to even attempt to back that up. The Economist article has been discussed to death on these forums, so I suggest you do a little search. I'm pretty much done discussing that one.

and what is your IQ score?

Higher than yours, if your spelling is anything to go by...

Seriously, if you truly believe that Airbus is the only one playing this game dirty, and Boeing only sells its planes purely on their merits, then I've got some property I'd like to sell you...

[Edited 2004-02-24 14:32:09]
 
warren747sp
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:00 am

To. scorpio
I like to way you side step all issues by blowing off saying it is discussed to death and I will not discussing it anymore.
Our company does business worldwide and have a good idea how Airbus practice their business in many countries. Of course, no body plays fair in business but should rely on their respectable products first.
So if I think Boeing product is an superior product in many instance along with over half of the people on this site who happen to think the same way, they must be also incorrect
I am not biased toward European products and happily cruise around in my Porsche 996.
747SP
 
Scorpio
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:18 am

Warren747sp,

I like to way you side step all issues by blowing off saying it is discussed to death and I will not discussing it anymore.

All you have to do is go to the top of the page, push the 'search' button, and look for the many previous discussions on that exact article. I actively partook in these discussions. If you think that I'm going to discuss the same thing extensively again, purely because you're too lazy to look it up, I'm afraid you are living in a dreamworld.

Our company does business worldwide and have a good idea how Airbus practice their business in many countries.

And what company might that be, if I may ask?

So if I think Boeing product is an superior product in many instance along with over half of the people on this site who happen to think the same way, they must be also incorrect

Don't know where you got those numbers, but I've been on these boards for several years now, and you're one of only a handful of people to claim that Airbus produces (in your words) 'inferior' planes. And all the others so far were on average 12 years old. You've just single-handedly raised that average age a lot, but that's not exactly meant to be a compliment...

Let me give you a little tip, since you're new on these boards. I, and with me many others on these boards, do not appreciate what I will refer to as 'haters', i.e. people who, instead of supporting their favourite manufacturer (and defending it when attacked), choose to continually ATTACK the other, for any and no reason at all, all the time. It becomes worse when these people, like you, shoot off their mouths without providing the least bit of evidence, or anything else to support your claim. People who like to, as we say, sh*t without flushing.

Please keep that in mind when posting on these boards.
 
Adria
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Wed Feb 25, 2004 4:49 am

Scorpio it is useless to argue with Warren747SP since his IQ can merely be higher then the number of A340-200 sold all together
 
User avatar
Aaron747
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RE: The Cost Of The 777 Compared To Its Competitors

Wed Feb 25, 2004 4:59 am

I thought this thread was about the 777's operation/acquisition costs as related to its competitors???
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty