jhooper
Posts: 5560
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

El Al-style Security On U.S. Flights

Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:07 pm

Who thinks we should have El Al-syle security on U.S. flights? The cost would be enormous. The U.S. would turn into a more oppressive regime, but the measures seem to be effective. So what do you think?

[Edited 2004-02-24 08:08:15]
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
EZYcrew
Posts: 454
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 7:26 am

RE: El Al-syle Security On U.S. Flights

Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:11 pm

If US intelligence can prove that an El Al kind of security is necessary, then I am totally in favor. I would even like a similar measure taken here in Europe in case of proven and imminent threat.
However maybe a more competent agency than the TSA should be set up for it to be efficient.
 
Kempa
Posts: 364
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2003 2:47 am

RE: El Al-style Security On U.S. Flights

Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:08 pm

Israel faces a constant imminent threat of terror related to ELAL planes and facilities. The cost associated with the very real security threat can be absorbed by the defense budget.

The U.S. and Europe face a medium threat of terror, and have many, many more flights than ELAL or even if you count all flights to and from Israel on other carriers.

The cost of having one-on-one interviews and inspections lasting from ten minutes to more than one hour for every passenger would be enormous, not to mention all the other security measures that are not in plain view. Who would absorb the associated costs? Defense budget or the passengers? If it takes longer and becomes harder and more expensive to fly, people would drive 10 to 15 hours to avoid flying.

That is not the case with Israel. There are very few alternatives to air travel to get to Israel.

That said, if the US threat level is raised to red, I think that many additional measures will be implemented to heighten security in the sky, and some of those will not be traveller-friendly.
 
elwood64151
Posts: 2410
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2002 10:22 am

RE: El Al-style Security On U.S. Flights

Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:45 pm

I take issue with the US being called an "oppressive regime." We can discuss that ad nauseum in another forum.

I de not believe El Al style security is necessary or cost-effective. As has been stated, the US faces a very different threat compared to Isreal, and the Isreali Defense budget absorbs most of the costs that our economy could never handle.

In the US, to ask people to be subjected to between fifteen and sixty minutes of screening would not only be a violation of individual rights; it would be a death-knell to every airline currently operating. After all, who would want to arrive three hours before departure and spend half an hour being interrogated and having their bags searched for a one-hour flight when they could drive the distance without the hassle in six or eight hours?

Air travel would transfer back to the super-rich, and the only "airlines" that would survive would be the likes of Executive Beechcraft and other similar operations.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
Guest

RE: El Al-style Security On U.S. Flights

Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:00 am

Tower Air operated many years between JFK and TLV and catered to the Jewish passenger market. Their security consultants were all from Israel and never had any major security problem. Obviously, these people know quite a bit about security.
xxx
I flew a few times ferrying airplanes to/from Bedek Aviation in TLV for maintenance, proceeding back or from TLV as a passenger, and was subject to their security scrutiny, I have to say, they are the best. With them in charge, there would never have been a SEP 11 tragedy...
xxx
After New York, Buenos Aires has the largest Jewish population outside of Israel, and be aware that Aerolineas Argentinas security department has close ties with security experts who are former EL AL employees, or agents from Israel...
xxx
Happy contrails  Smile
(s) Skipper
 
VectorVictor
Posts: 384
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:31 am

RE: El Al-style Security On U.S. Flights

Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:29 am

First you write a letter wanting to let visitors back on the concourses and now you want to know what people think of El Al style security.

-Neither is compatible with the other
-The U.S. has absolutely no need for the type of security El Al provides
 
HlywdCatft
Posts: 5232
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:21 am

RE: El Al-style Security On U.S. Flights

Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:37 am

We don't need that kind of security.

If anyone threatens to take over the plane with box cutters again, there will be another "Let's Roll"

If a passenger blows up a plane in flight such as a bomb in his suitcase etc, El Al Security or even the best onboard security in the world will not prevent that.
 
avi
Posts: 887
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 1:27 am

RE: El Al-style Security On U.S. Flights

Wed Feb 25, 2004 1:49 am

If a passenger blows up a plane in flight such as a bomb in his suitcase etc, El Al Security or even the best onboard security in the world will not prevent that.

El-Al security did prevent such things in the past.
In 86 El-Al security found a bomb that Brithish security in Heathrow didn't!
The "shoe bomber" in 2001 (or 02) checked El-Al and decided not to try it on El-Al.

You should remember one more thing.
All El-Al has is security. One successful terror attack on El-Al aircraft and you can close the company. It’s different with US or EU airlines.
Long live the B747
 
jhooper
Posts: 5560
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: El Al-style Security On U.S. Flights

Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:52 am

Elwood64151 wrote:

I take issue with the US being called an "oppressive regime." We can discuss that ad nauseum in another forum.

Allow me to clarify. I didn't mean to imply that the U.S. is an oppressive regime. But there's no denying the fact that if we did implement this level of security the U.S. would become more oppressve.



VectorVictor wrote:

First you write a letter wanting to let visitors back on the concourses and now you want to know what people think of El Al style security.

-Neither is compatible with the other
-The U.S. has absolutely no need for the type of security El Al provides


You're right, neither is compatible with the other. In fact, I'm not advocating El Al-security in the U.S. But I am posing the question so we can have a debate and see where everyone stands.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
msllsmith
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:25 am

RE: El Al-style Security On U.S. Flights

Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:41 am

"Tower Air operated many years between JFK and TLV and catered to the Jewish passenger market. Their security consultants were all from Israel and never had any major security problem. Obviously, these people know quite a bit about security."

I agree. I was a FA with Tower and have gone on to fly with other airlines. Invariably, I took security much more seriously......the topic is too large to fully discuss in this venue, however, I look back on it with a number of thoughts:

1) I actually got bounced out of a training program once because I objected strongly to their lame security training (this is pre-9/11), which we in the US just fulfilled the FAA syllabus requirements with garbage at the time. My FAA rep wanted me to report it, but I was a little embarrassed I'd made such a big deal until...

2) I sat in my loft in B'klyn and had the dust of the WTC blow in my window.... and

3) Through an absolutely bizarre turn of events realized a week later that in the context of a job I had had extensive contact with the very guys (not appropriate to go into here either) who flew into the towers....the FBI was quite happy to debrief me a half dozen times.... and

4) It made me physically ill afterward, when as a former FA trainer, the enormity of how bad our security training was continued to haunt me...

5) I'm not as against profiling as would be pc..... and am quite happy to stand in line with a trash novel and a fresh pedicure....for as long as it takes.

6) Finally El Al seems to have made a difficult process relatively short and above all REAL and EFFICIANT.... Let's give this TSA thing a chance to find and train people in the same manner.

Off the soapbox....



There's nothing more beautiful than flying into the dawn.
 
windshear
Posts: 2258
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 4:45 pm

RE: El Al-style Security On U.S. Flights

Wed Feb 25, 2004 7:54 am

El Al security means psychological profiling of passengers, increased screening of bags and "cowboys" (air marshials) on board the aircraft...

And yes this kind of security has prevented bombs in the cargo hold on past occations and also hijack attempts and so on...

The idea is to profile the passengers and there for try to prevent bags going on board an aircraft with out the passenger being cleared...

Boaz...
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
RonE
Posts: 324
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 12:31 am

RE: El Al-style Security On U.S. Flights

Wed Feb 25, 2004 9:25 am

There is no doubt that El-Al's security measures are very efficient.

Considering the increase in threats the U.S., and to a lesser extent Europe is facing, there is plenty of room for improvement in the security department.

However, having extensive measures for every plane on every airline in the U.S. like El-Al has is just not feasible economically.

People forget El-Al has a very small fleet- 15 aircraft at the most. In the U.S. we are talking about thousands of aircrafts. The numbers speak for themselves ladies and gentlemen...
 
sw733
Posts: 5302
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:19 am

RE: El Al-style Security On U.S. Flights

Wed Feb 25, 2004 9:32 am

Honestly, I think it would be a waste of money. US airliners are very, very, rarely hijacked, and our risk of terrorism compared to Israel's is small (because Israel's is so enormous). I know terrorism is on everyones mind with aviation lately but, honestly, do we really need it? I also think that after Sept.11, with the passengers uprising against the terrorists, and its likelihood to occur again if another plane is hijacked, numbers of people outweigh armed guards. 155 against 5, you do the math. It isnt worth the money...they are much better things we could put it towards...like screeners who do their jobs! (When flying MDW - MCI in November, the screener turned her head away while my bag went through the x-ray machine....LOVELY!)
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: El Al-style Security On U.S. Flights

Wed Feb 25, 2004 9:36 am

Rather than implementing El Al security measures in the US, I would rather have El Al security experts train the US security guards for how to look for suspicious passengers and how to best increase security around airports. It is impossible to have long interviews before every flight, but it is very possible and makes sense to have the TSA follow some El Al tactics.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
JFernandez
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 8:43 am

RE: El Al-style Security On U.S. Flights

Wed Feb 25, 2004 10:22 am

As pointed out earlier, while a great idea, there are two major objections to this style of security:

1) Civil rights advocates going completely nutso

and

2) The huge amount of air travel in the US as compared to Israel.

I think that 1 will eventually be more acceptable as the number of attacks in the US increases. As far as 2, you're simply dealing with an economic situation which isn't very good for airlines, and the consumers won't be happy with the costs.
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: El Al-style Security On U.S. Flights

Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:51 pm

The Sept 11 fees would then SKYROCKET to probably $30 bux one way if this program was ever put in place.  Wow!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
midex461
Posts: 228
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2000 11:08 am

RE: El Al-style Security On U.S. Flights

Wed Feb 25, 2004 4:11 pm

Rjpieces, I agree about having El Al Security experts training our people. But let's not forget that the TSA has taken its place in the boondoggle hall of fame. It was a screw up from the beginning. It should never have been placed under the DOT. This is not a Transportation issue, people. It's a Law Enforcement issue! The TSA should be under the Dept of Justice. The requirements to be a screener in the US should be far more stringent. Training should be done by either the FBI at Quantico or down in Brunswick, GA.
I know, welcome to Soapbox City.
The simple fact is we had an opportunity to REALLY improve aviation security in the US and, as usual, we blew it.
Opinions and views expressed are MINE and do NOT represent the views of US Airways

Who is online