timberwolf24
Posts: 451
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2001 8:38 am

ATA To End SFO-EWR N/S Flts.

Wed Feb 25, 2004 5:02 am

This was on the employees web site;


ATA Airlines Drops SFO-EWR Flights — Effective March 15, 2004 ATA will no longer fly between SFO and EWR airports. When we started flying this route at the end of October 2003 there were 24 transcontinental flights from SFO airports to New York airports. After our entry in that market, the total number of flights grew to 35. This explosive growth dramatically impacted our load factors and the price per seat on this flight dropped to $79. Additionally, we will soon have access to four more gates at MDW which will allow us to better deploy our aircraft and assets into MDW markets.
Living in LA, ORD/MDW will always be home!
 
N670UW
Posts: 1441
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 9:55 am

RE: ATA To End SFO-EWR N/S Flts.

Wed Feb 25, 2004 5:05 am

Very interesting. Looks like CO and UA gave them a run for their money.

Also interesting that CO is running eight EWR-SFO, while only five EWR-LAX, which is traditionally a larger market.


670

[Edited 2004-02-24 21:06:20]
 
DCA-ROCguy
Posts: 3890
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: ATA To End SFO-EWR N/S Flts.

Wed Feb 25, 2004 5:23 am

Not too surprising. ATA is not a major player in the New York area, and eight CO dailies to the Bay area is very suspicious. DOJ should probably investigate. Figure, too, that if Uncle Gordon has entertainingly apoplectic fits about JetBlue across the river, he couldn't have been too happy about ATA at his EWR hub, either.

Now watch those CO dailies to the Bay Area drop off in the next few months, and the fares go up.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
Guest

RE: ATA To End SFO-EWR N/S Flts.

Wed Feb 25, 2004 5:25 am

DOJ should probably investigate

They should investigate any time an airline increases flights to compete, eh, Jim?  Innocent
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24521
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: ATA To End SFO-EWR N/S Flts.

Wed Feb 25, 2004 5:29 am

Saturday-only San Francsico-LaGuardia service is also coming to an end.
a.
 
Cory6188
Posts: 2609
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:29 am

RE: ATA To End SFO-EWR N/S Flts.

Wed Feb 25, 2004 5:29 am

I'm not surprised this happened. I was wondering how long they were going to offer those flights and low fares while still making a profit. I know CO was very worried about this new service - watch those 8 flights daily drop to 4 and the last minute fare go from $400 to $1400.
 
sllevin
Posts: 3312
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: ATA To End SFO-EWR N/S Flts.

Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:04 am

Investigate? What for?

Competition from established vendors against new entrants happens in a free market. From farms to grocery stores to banks and airlines, this is what's known as competition.

ATA isn't being forced not to fly these routes. They haven't even really competed that hard. No one else has undercut ATA, although they've matched price.

Any investigation should be of ATA's management -- the "what the heck did you THINK was going to happen, moron?" investigation.

Steve
 
Cory6188
Posts: 2609
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:29 am

RE: ATA To End SFO-EWR N/S Flts.

Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:07 am

Good point. I'd like to know if ATA really thought they could compete with CO on a route such as that - it's really a important route for CO, and they have the resources to match prices and flood them with seats, all while providing more services (meals, lounges, F class, etc.) than ATA can't.
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: ATA To End SFO-EWR N/S Flts.

Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:13 am

IMHO - I believe ALL airlines need to research any route before they start them up. Also like others have pointed out, CO was protecting its territory and it is no different than what any other company would do. I am sure to some extent CO is losing passengers to B6 at JFk and now WN will be right around the corner in PHL, so ATA/TZ decides to set up shop in your backyard, what would you do?
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
Cory6188
Posts: 2609
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:29 am

RE: ATA To End SFO-EWR N/S Flts.

Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:19 am

I believe that the major market where CO is losing customers to B6 is on the NYC-Florida routes. B6 hasn't really encroached upon much else of CO's territory - not everyone is willing to go to LGB or ONT instead of LAX, and many of B6's flights are red-eye and/or once-daily only - DEN, MSY, SLC, SEA come to mind - whereas CO offers multiple flights at different times of the day.
 
jjbiv
Posts: 1203
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 10:58 am

RE: ATA To End SFO-EWR N/S Flts.

Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:20 am

Other carriers increased capacity in the market by nearly 50%. Whether you dismiss that as mere competition or view it as predatory, an increase of that magnitude is not a reasonable or logical competitive response; hardly anything management could have predicted. SFO-NYC was a good market and will be a good market again as soon as the LCC drops out. Unfortunately, the real losers are consumers who will once again be subjected to increased fares and reduced options. That is hardly the outcome of competition, rather a typical case of consumers loosing sight of what is truly driving the market they cherish (LCC presence) and whoring out to the "most competitive" (i.e. he who is bleeding the most to serve the customer) carrier. If you think CO & Co. will continue their present behavior once ATA is out, you're sadly mistaken.

Moral of the story: support the LCC on the routes you fly if you value their market presence.

joe
 
Cory6188
Posts: 2609
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:29 am

RE: ATA To End SFO-EWR N/S Flts.

Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:22 am

It's unfortunate that there is now a lack of competition (as I'm sure UA and CO aren't going to try to undercut one another with fares), but did ATA really think that they could run these flights while CO and UA just sit back and watch their money go down the drain?
 
WMUPilot
Posts: 1428
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:48 am

RE: ATA To End SFO-EWR N/S Flts.

Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:24 am

We knew full well going into these flights that we were going to be fighting an up hill battle. Especially coming into CO territory and knew that they weren't going to be too happy about that.
JetBlue - Bringing humanity back to air travel
 
Guest

RE: ATA To End SFO-EWR N/S Flts.

Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:26 am

Continental simply expanded capacity to meet the extra demand that ATA generated. It's ATA's fault for lowering the fare and generating that much extra demand.  Smile
 
jjbiv
Posts: 1203
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 10:58 am

RE: ATA To End SFO-EWR N/S Flts.

Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:56 am

The only problem with that argument is that CO's costs are higher than TZ's, thus if they were being truly competitive in a perfect market (earning an equal profit), their fares would have to be higher as well. Of course, profit can go by the wayside and you can take a loss in one market if you view it as being necessary to defending your other markets out of a fortress hub  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Different views for different folks.

joe
 
DCA-ROCguy
Posts: 3890
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: ATA To End SFO-EWR N/S Flts.

Wed Feb 25, 2004 7:04 am

That is hardly the outcome of competition, rather a typical case of consumers loosing sight of what is truly driving the market they cherish (LCC presence) and whoring out to the "most competitive" (i.e. he who is bleeding the most to serve the customer) carrier. If you think CO & Co. will continue their present behavior once ATA is out, you're sadly mistaken.

Exactly. As I said before, watch over the next few months..CO will reduce capacity, and hike fares. We can be pretty sure that CO wasn't making money on such a large capacity increase. That's not competition, it's predation, and it smells like lav tank after a transcon flight.

So CO is *not* "simply adding capacity to meet the extra demand ATA generated." That's just rationalization.

They should investigate any time an airline increases flights to compete, eh, Jim?

If a Cartel-network carrier increases capacity on a route that an LCC has newly entered and dropped fares (and thus yields) through the floor, and the result is that the LCC can't make money and pulls out, you bet DOJ should investigate. Every time. That's the one way the network carriers get the message.  Smile

Don't like it? Don't have to. Just keeping free markets open and free.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15214
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: ATA To End SFO-EWR N/S Flts.

Wed Feb 25, 2004 7:09 am

"Other carriers increased capacity in the market by nearly 50%. Whether you dismiss that as mere competition or view it as predatory, an increase of that magnitude is not a reasonable or logical competitive response; hardly anything management could have predicted. "

Only if 'management' was born yesterday.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
sllevin
Posts: 3312
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: ATA To End SFO-EWR N/S Flts.

Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:50 am

Only if 'management' was born yesterday.

How true, how true.

jetBlue has shown that if you show a little perseverence, if the competition really can't hang, then you will will out -- witness JFK-OAK, for example. I'm really disappointed that ATA has instead done a 'hit and run' on this route.

But really, you take a high-yield, flagship route -- and you don't think people are going to match your price and increase capacity? Seriously.

Steve
 
WMUPilot
Posts: 1428
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:48 am

RE: ATA To End SFO-EWR N/S Flts.

Wed Feb 25, 2004 1:13 pm

The average loads on the transcon flights where 45 out of 175. Not very smart to stay on that route. We may have a low CASM but it's not that low. From what i've heard the only reason they kept the flights was because of the cargo they were now able to carry. On average the cargo/mail load was 5000-6000lbs.
JetBlue - Bringing humanity back to air travel
 
ATA767
Posts: 418
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2003 6:33 am

RE: ATA To End SFO-EWR N/S Flts.

Thu Feb 26, 2004 7:33 am

It was a smart move at a bad time. I am dissapointed that they did not hang in there at least till after spring break.
 
Guest

RE: ATA To End SFO-EWR N/S Flts.

Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:18 am

Obviously most of this behavior is acceptable, otherwise I'm sure the DOJ would investigate and more politicians would jump on board, to be seen as fighting for airfare salvation for their constituents. Deregulation was born out of a vote-grabbing exercise by Ted Kennedy (and to get peoples minds off of him, women, cars, and water).
 
WMUPilot
Posts: 1428
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:48 am

RE: ATA To End SFO-EWR N/S Flts.

Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:43 am

It's just competition. ATA knew going into this what CO's response would be. They don't want us treding on their territory. EWR's there hub. How did you think they would respond? Just sit around and let us do our thing? Look what US and WN are doing. It's competition and now the Legacy carriers are finally starting to put their foot down and stand up to the LCC's. Granted I work for ATA but i'm glad the two groups are fighting. There are good results for the passengers. Sometimes the LCC's win and sometimes the Legecy carriers win. It's the name of the game. This time the Legecy carrier won, but that is just the battle. The outcome of the war has yet to be decided and may not for quite some time yet.
JetBlue - Bringing humanity back to air travel
 
COTXDFW777AA
Posts: 314
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 10:36 am

RE: ATA To End SFO-EWR N/S Flts.

Thu Feb 26, 2004 11:55 am

And that war better end in the same way.

-COTXDFW777AA
Texas- it's like a whole different country!
 
ATA767
Posts: 418
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2003 6:33 am

RE: ATA To End SFO-EWR N/S Flts.

Sun Feb 29, 2004 1:46 pm

ATA's Saturday only service from LGA-SFO is not ending by the way. MAH4546 where did you get that miss-information?

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