Thrust
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Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:13 am

Hi. I just wanted to ask: Doesn't it seem rather strange that no US carriers fly to Africa? AA, UA, DL, CO, and NW combined serve every continent except Africa (and Antarctica, why on earth would anyone serve a continent with a lower population than St. Louis and Chicago combined). TWA and Pan Am once flew to Africa, but it seems that no U.S. airline seems to be interested in Africa. Is it because they fear they will spread the viruses and diseases of Africa into America? (Don't mean to sound discriminatory)
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
Cory6188
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:15 am

Well, I know that a while ago there had been a rumor that CO was looking into serving LOS from either IAH or EWR to connect to the oil industry there, but it was simply a rumor. I don't know what came of it; maybe Artsyman, 777gk, or COAB767 could enlighten us as to that route's status.
 
jmy007
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:21 am

Economics.
Delta served Cario a couple of years back, as did TWA.
With code shares these days, why put empty planes to these destinations, when the airline can buy these seats on another.
Cookies are the Gateway pastry. They lead to Éclairs and Bear Claws.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:23 am

Code shares and considering the economics of a lot of airlines right now it is not possible or does any one airline need to serve each and every destination on the planet.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
B4REAL
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:25 am

100% agree w/Jmy007, the bucks aren't bringing the birds.

DL had CAI for a while, w/ continuing service to DXB. Pretty brave for a US-based carrier!!!

Now with South African Airways, Royal Air Maroc, and European partners, codesharing is the way to go...
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
Guest

RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:28 am

Houston, TX, to Luanda, Angola - twice a week, by World Airways, with MD-11 - but I must be mistaking Angola for a country of Africa...
xxx
Happy contrails  Big grin
(s) Skipper
 
jmy007
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:34 am

Plus, its not like there is no service from the US to Africa.
There are plenty of flights. Just not on any US carrier.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Cookies are the Gateway pastry. They lead to Éclairs and Bear Claws.
 
m404
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:36 am

I think it's because our carriers are total capitalists and profit is the ONLY motivation. We have to answer to stockholders and not national pride and almost immediate profit is sought. We had virtually no colonial heritage on that continent so no expats or descendants to work from. Note that both TW and PA are very sadly gone.

You have to admit that now is certainly not the time to strike out there now in this financial era for air carriers. Security and support structure is another factor.
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
 
oneworldman
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:44 am

"We had virtually no colonial heritage on that continent so no expats or descendants to work from".


Actually M404, that statement is not exactly accurate...practically the entire country of Liberia is made up of decendants of ex-slaves from the United States who went there and created there country, Hence the Name Liberia and why there flag is so similar to ours.
Querer es poder.
 
m404
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:49 am

I knew someone would mention that. OK. point taken but I have to preface that by adding--- With the funds and desires to make a US run profitable.

Sorry, no slight meant at all.
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
 
Boeing757/767
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:55 am

Thrust,

I don't get your comment about Antarctica. It has a year-round population of a handful of scientists and no airport -- I don't get the reference to the population of St.Louis and Chicago... Or am I reading the sentence wrong?
Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
 
oneworldman
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:56 am

and no slight was taken, i just thought it was worth mentioning!!!!!!
Querer es poder.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:56 am

Demand, economics, politics, safety and security are all reasons why US based airliner apparently do not serve African destinations. I am surpised that their isn't any direct USA airline services to Cairo, Johannasburg, etc. Let us not forget that there are several 1st line, very experienced and well operated African based airlines.
Demand - Better served by African or European based airlines, their hubs and connecting services. Recent stricter US visa standards have also reduced demand.
Economics - Investments in a/c, facilities and operations are put at too much risk for poor returns. Far too many countries there are not too observant of the rule of law and airlines cannot risk loss of a/c, etc. The oft changing economics of some African countries along with demand and service already by African based carriers preclude US carriers going there.
Politics - Fewer US airlines serving means African based carriers have a chance to survive with the limited demand. Often the leaders of some of those countries limit access to their national carriers to keep income, profits, jobs to people in their countries. Also, some countries unfortunately work on the bribe system to get things through or done, even on a daily basis and as US companies are severely limited in paying bribes and are probably perceived as having a bottomless barrel of money they don't want to get into that trap.
Safety - Some people in some of these countries are quite anti-American, so US airliners would be at high-risk of attack as symbols of USA. Their is also the far too often corruption of local police, military leaders whom might jeopardise US airlines/property.
Security - Especially after 9-11, would you want to have to rely, with some exceptions, on the local security agents in some African countries? Better they have to funnel through the national carrier or via Europe and subject to further screening there.
 
polaris
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:57 am

No US carriers to Africa at this time is, as mentioned, for financial reasons.

In its day, Pan Am had an extensive African network. These services were maintained for political reasons and were subsidized by the US government.
 
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PA110
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 7:09 am

As quite a few have already mentioned, the reason is pure economics. The only scheduled commercial direct service between the USA and Africa is:
AT: from New York to CMN
GH: from Baltimore and New York to ACC
MS: from New York to CAI
ET: from Dulles and Newark to ADD
SA: from Atlanta and New York to JNB and CPT

The only one that actually makes money is SA due to a better mix of high yield and leisure/ethnic traffic. I think ET does ok with government contracts, but AT, GH and MS have mostly low yield leisure/ethnic traffic and fly more for national pride than anything else (or as a ferry service for government ministers). GH is on life support and barely hanging on. Two other carriers (RK and WT) have already gone under because of rampant corruption and little ability to capture high yield traffic willing to actually pay their bills. The two U.S. carriers that flew direct were extremely short-lived. E8 (US Africa Airways) had a poor business model and could not sustain a profit as a single route airline. World tried regular scheduled service to South Africa as well and did not stay for long. World now only operates charter flights to Africa.

Why a US carrier would want to enter this envronment is answered by the fact that none have.
It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
 
warren747sp
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 7:27 am

I was in Luanda a few month ago. It is interesting how they have one terminal for everyone else and one checking terminal dedicated to ESSO.
They told me the flight goes to Texas non-stop as confirmed by B747skipper.
I guess it confirms economics dictate US Airlines route expansion.
747SP
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 7:44 am

"Actually M404, that statement is not exactly accurate...practically the entire country of Liberia is made up of decendants of ex-slaves from the United States who went there and created there country, Hence the Name Liberia and why there flag is so similar to ours."

= "virtually no colonial heritage..."
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
N79969
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 7:47 am

"I guess it confirms economics dictate US Airlines route expansion."

Is there supposed to be any other motivation or rationale? I hope not.

European carriers are much better able to consolidate Africa-bound traffic from the US and Europe at their hubs and fly them on to their destination. This ability to consolidate gives them what I believe is called "economies of density" as the routes are short and flights can be filled.

To serve Africa, US carriers would be forced to fly very long, very thin routes that would be uneconomical without a constant stream of premium paying passengers. The economics of flights of those durations are challenging. The Europeans can do it much cheaper.

It is not strange at all that US carriers do not serve Africa. It makes perfect sense.

 
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American 767
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:20 am

Pan Am used to go to Nairobi. They also flew to Johannesburg but they dropped that destination when the United States government, the Reagan era in the 80's, banned all flights bound to/from South Africa.
I don't think any other US carrier has ever flown to Nairobi or Johannesburg, the busiest international airport in Africa.

Ben Soriano
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jmy007
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:24 am

Didn't TWA fly to Nariboi in the mid '70's, as well as Dar es Salam(sp)?
Cookies are the Gateway pastry. They lead to Éclairs and Bear Claws.
 
erj
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:32 am

I understand the primary reason to be safety. Except for Egypt, most of Africa is extremely primitive, decades behind North America, Eastern Asia, Europe and the Middle East. Navaids are unreliable, ILS's are almost non-existant. It's the same reason, there are a limited number of flights to South America. Things may change as GPS approaches come to be more accepted and (more importantly) certified for part 121 operators.
 
myk
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:18 am

TACV had a direct flight between Boston and Sal. Ist this flight still operating ?
 
aviasian
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:38 am

"Except for Egypt, most of Africa is extremely primitive"

This must surely be a joke right? Ever heard of South Africa - Capetown/ Johannesburg/Port Elizabeth or Kenya - Nairobi or Morocco - Casablanca/Rabat etc?

Wasn't there an airline named USAfrica Airways operating (albeit extremely briefly) an MD-11 in a natural metal finish with a cheatline in red/blue?

KC Sim
Bangkok
 
Spike
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:46 am

I'm not sure that the US knows where Africa actually is.
 
Korg747
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:06 pm

Well if you guys speaking of profit. I can tell you all that the four TWA flight I had to CAI where full to the last seat. So I guess I would have to say security is the reason of why US airlines don't fly to Egypt.
Please excuse my English!
 
danialanwar
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:18 pm

Safety better not be the reason why no US airliner flies to Africa. Many European airlines with high(er) security standards do fly to Africa a lot.

My guess is that it's not economical. The few profitable routes are taken (JNB) or have convenient connections via Europe (CAI). I recall the Royal Air Maroc plane flying JFK-Casablanca that was turned around recently had like 80 passengers on board - it was a B744 I believe.

And please, dont call anyone backward, primitive, disease ridden ect ... looks really bad on the person saying it, affected by the disease of superiority and primitive thinking incapable of understanding different/other things.
Best Business Class: Royal Brunei. Best Economy: Singapore Airlines. First: please send money first!
 
usatoeze
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:39 pm

I'm not sure that the US knows where Africa actually is.


Pathetic comment. It seems we knew Mobutu well.
War is a very poor political tool
 
Korg747
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:42 pm

"Safety better not be the reason why no US airliner flies to Africa. Many European airlines with high(er) security standards do fly to Africa a lot."

That's quite true. a big example would be BA, AF, SQ, LH.... They all fly to Egypt. and US airlines are no better than europeans either.
Please excuse my English!
 
thesilverbirds
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:48 pm

Spike's comment wasnt meant to be insulting.. haha, its that british humor. I found it to be pretty funny.  Smile
 
yulguy
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:51 pm

Please. Security is not the reason why American airlines do not fly to Africa. If there was a market, they'd be there. There were no Am airlines flying there pre-9-11, let's remember. Given the size and wealth of the US, the airlines are relatively insular in scope, compared to the KLMs or the BAs or AF etc. Americans don't travel all that much outside their own country either. Is it true or is it a myth that only about 50% of Americans have passports?
"Celui qui diffère de moi, loin de me léser, m'enrichit." - Saint-Exupéry
 
yulguy
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:55 pm

And the comment from ERJ....We don't need that kind of backwards thinking here. Do you know where Africa is ERJ? It is not primitive. How about getting on one of these airliners that we're always talking about and take a look for yourself.
"Celui qui diffère de moi, loin de me léser, m'enrichit." - Saint-Exupéry
 
usatoeze
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:34 pm

Spike's comment wasnt meant to be insulting.. haha, its that british humor. I found it to be pretty funny.

That's why I responded that we knew Mobutu. We put him in power. I laughed as well.
War is a very poor political tool
 
andz
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:47 pm

ERJ is partly right. I have spoken to several SAA pilots who have said that some of the ATC facilities and procedures over central Africa are dicey at best. Apparently most of the mainline carriers flying between Europe and South Africa communicate with each other constantly while over this region as they don't trust the infrastructure.

SAA codeshares with Delta on the JFK and ATL routes, but I don't recall seeing an American carrier at JNB since Pan Am.

After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
airfrancejfk
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:05 pm

Ok, first things first, Liberia is not made up of mostly freed American slaves. Yes the capital is named after President Monroe (hence Monrovia), and yes the flag was modeled after the American flag, and yes the country was founded by freed American slaves, but umm, there were already native Africans living there when the free slaves arrived from America, and they were and still are the majority of the population. BTW, Zambia Airways used to fly Lusaka-Monrovia-New York with a DC-10 back in the late 80's/early 90's.

Secondly, the AT flight that was diverted was a 767 and not a 744 (AT stopped flying the 744 to JFK after 9-11, mainly because they had to axe the Montreal segment, seeing as all passengers would have to get out at JFK, clear immigration/customs and board the aircraft again for Montreal, same thing happened on the return flight from YUL). The Montreal segment, which is now flown directly from CMN was a huge money earner, Royal Air Maroc really used to fill up those planes. I remember, the folks in YUL would load up the plane with non-revs from Montreal, and by the time it got to JFK, there were no seats for the revenue passengers, huge nightmare, but that 744 used to go out full every time, especially during Ramadan. These days, the 767 averages around 80 passengers during the off peak season, not very great load at all.

Now back to the original topic, seems to me that security and economics play perhaps the biggest role in determining why no U.S. carriers currently fly to Africa. I think that any check of the FAA rating of African airports will show that the majority of them do not meet U.S. security regulations. And as for economics, with code shares, its simply more feasible to use someones elses metal than to send your own. As for that whole colonial legacy, it was Europe that had without a doubt the largest colonial presence in Africa, and it should come as no surprise that they maintain a dominant presence there.
 
JFernandez
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 5:46 pm

Without insulting the people, the reality is that the air infrastructure is not in very good shape. In addition, security situations in various parts are iffy, and awfully fluid.

Now, a better reason - most Americans don't view Africa as a legitimate tourist destination. Europeans, however, do. It's also quite far to operate stuff. It's the same reason you don't see many Europe - South America flights.
 
N276AASTT
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 5:52 pm

As far as AA is concerned. I think they rely on the traffic feed provided by their Oneworld alliance with British Airways which serves a lot of destinations in Africa.
Dejale Caer tu el Peso! YOMO
 
Spike
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:09 pm

Its not just Africa, look at the US international network, compared with the European / Asian carriers international network. The US airline industry is primarily domestric, the rest of the world is international. We still rule.
 
erj
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 3:02 pm

Sure economics fit into the equation. The economics do not outweigh the risks. And security, while commonly a separate department, is absolutely a safety concern.

Aviasian and Yulguy. You will both tell me, honestly, that Africa is as advanced as North America and Europe as far as infrastructure goes?

I don't mean to insult anyone. I sincerely apologize if I did. I do in fact know where Africa is, and I have no idea what you mean by backwards thinking. I don't come on to these forums to be insulted!

I am a student of the aviation business and a pilot. I don't claim to be an expert, I just want to share what I know without harsh criticism. I'd like to know what your expertise is that you feel is so superior to mine that you know so much better as to insult me. If your sources come from airline insiders, retired pilots, and professional analysts, then you may be correct and I may be wrong. If that's the case, I back down from my argument.
 
aviasian
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 3:48 pm

ERJ : Please grow up and don't sway towards the extremes only. I am just saying that it is not accurate to say that other than Egypt, most of the rest of Africa is primitive.

The discussion was not about whether the continent is as advanced as the USA/Europe.

Sweeping statements such as this do little to advance the discussion - and however primitive you see the continent to be, it is obviously good enough for many European airlines (including bigwigs such as BA, Lufthansa, KLM, Air France etc) and some Asian carriers.

KC Sim
Bangkok

 
erj
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 4:22 pm

The question was "Why no US Carriers in Africa" I answered that question. I am not going to speculate on non-US carriers, I will stick with the discussion.

I believe I am grown up, thank you. I respect the opinions of others, just not the insults.

I see now how my comment could be interpretted. I mean only the aerospace system is primitive, not the continent/culture/people. From a pure safety perspective, the US system was primitive 2 decades ago, by today's standards. Again, I apologize for the confusion.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 4:49 pm

TACV had a direct flight between Boston and Sal. Ist this flight still operating ?

Yes, every Monday.

Except for Egypt, most of Africa is extremely primitive

You have to be kidding yourself. Do you seriously think that Egypt is the only modernized nation in Africa? First of all, South Africa, not Egypt, is Africa's most modern and wealthiest country. Second of all, you can add Morrocco, Kenya, Zimbabwe, Tunisia, and Namibia, among others, to the list of Africa's more modernized nations.

It's the same reason, there are a limited number of flights to South America.

Since when? Are you referring to American Airlines' five daily flights to Sao Paulo, or eight daily flights to Caracas? Or the fact that it is a US carrier that provides the only trans-continental service from the South American airports of Belo Horizonte, Santa Cruz, and Asuncion? Or Guanacaste Liberia airport in Costa Rica, which is served by only four airlines - all four of them are US carriers. All six cartel US carriers fly to Latin America.

As for the market between the US and Africa, there are some markets that exist. Houston-Lagos, Miami-Cape Town/Johannesburg, and Miami-Dakar, for example. It is a devolping market, and I firmly believe you will see a US carrier in Africa, most likely South Africa, Nigeria, or Senegal, within ten years.

There were no Am airlines flying there pre-9-11, let's remember.

Yeah there were. Delta Airlines flew JFK-CAI-DXB and TWA/American Airlines flew JFK-CAI-RUH.
a.
 
AirGAbon
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 8:02 pm

ERJ :"Navaids are unreliable, ILS's are almost non-existant."

Every airports of the main African cities have ILS !!

In Africa we are talking about the most destructive weather patterns on earth. Landing in any storm is a challenge. Landing in a tropical storm must be just that much harder.

Ask pilots in Africa... Everyday, they perform landings in tropical storms with B742 (Air Gabon), B767s (Kenya Airways, Cameroon Airlines), DC9 (Ghana Airways), B737s (Air Gabon, Cameroon Airlines, Kenya Airways), F28 (Air Ivoire)...
Or Air France with B772, A343 or A332 in West and Central Africa !!

Landing in a tropical storm is not a reason to flip over. We don't hear a lot about problems in these countries due to bad weather...

ATC in West Africa is OK. (except over Guinea, Liberia, Sierre Leone and Nigeria... The Kano FIR in Nigeria isn(t the best !!)

The weak point is over former Zaire (now Democratic Republic of Congo) and the Centrafirican Republic. Most of the mainline carriers flying between Europe and South Africa communicate with each other constantly while over this region.

Countries like Ghana, Senegal, Tunisia, Algeria, Egypt, Morocco, Ivory Coast, Cameroon and Gabon are OK for Navaids, ILS and ATC... Believe me !!
AF, BA, AZ, SN etc... are flying to these countries




 
JGPH1A
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 8:07 pm

Re: Countries like Ghana, Senegal, Tunisia, Algeria, Egypt, Morocco, Ivory Coast, Cameroon and Gabon are SA Czech Airlines">OK for Navaids, ILS and ATC.

You forgot the most obvious one - South Africa, and also Namibia. Even people from Africa seem to forget that SA is an African country.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
airNondo
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:15 pm

MAH4546, I think the comment by ERJ about 'primitiveness' was referring to the state of atc equipment, novaids, etc; it was Not an attempt to bash Africa. Yes, there were a few regions not mentioned in addition to Cairo that are on par with Europe or N.America, but in general it is a pretty fair statement.
Poka- nondo
 
myk
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:23 pm

Algeria has new ultramodern ATC equipment.

Things change and improve in Africa, slowly, but they change !
 
erj
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Fri Feb 27, 2004 2:21 am

Airnondo: Thanks for understanding what I'm trying to say.
 
SA006
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Fri Feb 27, 2004 2:36 am

An new African airline called Island Air will be operating from Sao Tome to Houston, TX soon this year I think with 747-SP's

Here in South Africa we have the busiest and biggest airport JNB. The airports here are great and out ATC is excellent. I dunno why people regard Africa as a "non-aviation" place. The tourism is good because of wildlife in Africa. These places ar Kenya South Africa Botswana, Zimbabwe among others


Rgds
SA006
Proudly South African
 
5NEOO
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Fri Feb 27, 2004 2:37 am

The answer is simple; lack of demand! Since tourism is almost non-existent in this continent, most people flying between both continents are either from the country in question or going on business related trips (besides oil, what other industry of significance do we have in this continent!). Now the majority of individuals from sub-saharan African nations tend to emigrate or visit the European nations with which they have colonial ties to. Case in point: Nigerians = UK, Francophone West African countries = France, DRC = Belgium, Angola = Portugal, and so on. There are a lot of Africans residing in the US, but from a statistical standpoint they are dwarfed by their counterparts living in Europe.
Admit it, you could care less about the continent Africa!
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Why No US Carriers In Africa?

Fri Feb 27, 2004 2:44 am

Possibly the tourist and business traffic needs to go to different places, which makes running direct services less profitable.

Tourists want to go to SA, Kenya, Botswana, Namibia, Tanzania, Egypt, Morocco.

Business (mostly oil, where the big money is) wants to go to Nigeria, Angola, Sao Tome, Equatorial Guinea, Gabon, Cameroon, most of which places are not really good tourist destinations from a mass-market point of view. Which is why AF and others are laying on smaller aircraft to these specific destinations to serve the big-paying but small volume business traffic to these destinations.

Possibly US carriers could follow this trick, and lay on 757ER's from SA - Georgia">ATL / SA - Florida">MIA / SA - Texas">IAH direct to LOS/LBV/LAD via SSG etc.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Transat1011
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Airfrancejfk: Clarification On At

Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:00 am

Airfrancejfk

Just a note on AT flights that used to stopover in JFK...
The 767 service is really appreciated, especially here in YUL saving the troublesome customs clearance in JFK. Even now, the loads are very respectable and the 744 comes in occasionally to accomodate extra traffic.
As for the non-revs we were packing in YUL, I remember we were running out of seats (AF, AT same handling company) but we checked if they had a US visa and put them on the plane if they wanted to try in JFK. They were supposed to know that if the seats were required by revenue passengers, they would have to forfeit their seat (they are pax -"debarquables" according to Gaetan after all). Jumpseats were another options as we know the 744 can accomodate a lot of non-rev jumpseaters.
I can imagine the fuss however...

On a separate note, send me an email if possible, I would like to discuss your ISO certification in JFK (we are in a similar process in YUL).

Rgds,
Transat1011