EZYcrew
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Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 3:13 am

http://www.justplanes.com today :

Spirit
Revealed it is in talks with Airbus and Embraer about an order
for 60 or more new jets for use on its Florida routes.


Are they de facto excluding Boeing? I think a fleet like Air Tran's -717's and 737NG's - would fit well into their operation.

 
Greg
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 4:00 am

I think it's because they are 'already' in talks with Boeing about fleet replacement.
This could/would/might be the break that the 717 needs.
 
gigneil
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 4:05 am

I thought Boeing told Spirit no thanks.

N
 
atcboy73
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 4:43 am

Why would they do that, it doesnt make sense. Wouldnt it be better for them to get a competing offer, or maybe that is why EMB is at the table.
 
FLAIRPORT
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:20 am

irony here: The MD80 is technicly boeing!
NEXT FLIGHT: FLL-ATL-HPN on FL
 
MAH4546
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:40 am

I think it's because they are 'already' in talks with Boeing about fleet replacement.
This could/would/might be the break that the 717 needs.


No they aren't in talks with Boeing, and no, they are not going to be buying the 717. The reason they are replacing the MD80s is so they can run transcons from FLL (and with less limitiations on West Coast from DTW). They are most likely going to go for the A320 family.
a.
 
as739x
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:43 am

I thought along the same lines as GIG, I thought they were talking with Boeing already. Boeing would never say no thanks, I assure you!
ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
BeltwayBandit
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:47 am

Here's the press release that has people baffled. My understanding is that it does not mean much.

========================================


Reuters
Boeing says not offering jets to Spirit Airlines
Friday February 13, 6:37 pm ET


SEATTLE, Feb 13 (Reuters) - Boeing Co. (NYSE:BA - News), the No. 2 jetliner maker, said on Friday it was not offering aircraft to privately held Spirit Airlines, despite media reports that the carrier was shopping for narrow-body jets.

"We do not currently have an offer on the table at Spirit and at present we do not have plans to make one," said Boeing spokesman Nicolaas Groeneveld-Meijer.

News reports have said Ft. Lauderdale, Florida-based Spirit was negotiating an equity sale to Los Angeles investment firm Oaktree Capital Management, LLC (News - Websites) , worth more than $100 million and then might buy jets from Boeing or rival Airbus SAS (XETRA:EAD.DE - News; Paris:EAD.PA - News).

Both Spirit and Oaktree have declined to comment.

 
nycfuturepilot
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:55 am

Why wouldnt boeing make an offer?
Father, Son, HOYA spirit
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 11:49 am

Well, that Reuters article was dated over a week ago, before the money was a done deal. Who knows what may or may not have changed since then.

Besides, justplanes generally isn't the most reliable news source out there.

Even when NK gets new aircraft they will likely fly alongside their MD-80's. NK is looking toward expansion here, not necessarily replacement.
 
MEA321
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 12:25 pm

It would be really exciting to see the Spirit digital c/s on either the A320 or the B737-800!

I cant wait to hear about their decision!
MEA321
 
BA
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 12:31 pm

Good to see Spirit looking ahead for expansion. A320s or 737-800s would suit them quite well.

Does anyone know the number they are looking at? If they are looking at around 50, I'd say they are looking to replace their MD-80 fleet. If less than 30 or so, I'd say they are holding off on their replacements.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
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mariner
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 12:35 pm

Boeing has a history of treating smaller airlines badly. The Frontier fleet replacement deal was Boeing's to lose - and they did.

There may be more to it than we know, but it's a puzzle that they behave this way. 60 aircraft is a damn good order.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
scottysair
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 1:12 pm

Is that Spirit will trying to looking with new jets for Airbus or Boeing? Which one is best airplanes is Airbus or Boeing? Can you find out about exactly what is going on for next?
 
flashmeister
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 1:33 pm

Mariner hit it on the head -- Boeing doesn't see a lot in offering smaller carriers deals like the bigger boys. In F9's case, Airbus did a lot to line up financing, etc., for the deal (hence such a large percentage of the debt belonging to European banks). Boeing doesn't see such an arrangement as profitable.

Now, one could say that this is another way that Airbus inflates orders, but if you're in the position of a smaller carrier, who cares as long as a deal can be done?
 
MAH4546
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 1:38 pm

Even when NK gets new aircraft they will likely fly alongside their MD-80's. NK is looking toward expansion here, not necessarily replacement.

No they won't. The plan is to acquire up to sixty new aircraft and totally get rid of the MD80 fleet. However, at the same time, they do plane on getting more second-hand MD80s to cover short term growth, but they won't be with Spirit for long (4-6 years max).
a.
 
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mariner
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 2:21 pm

Flashmeister:

I agree with all you say about Airbus and the financing. It has been so successful for all parties, in Frontier's case, that the range is now extended beyond European financiers to Asian ones.

Even the Frontier's ATSB backed loan came mostly from a German bank, WestLB, courtesy of an Airbus introduction. Those many millions were paid back fast - just over a year - giving Frontier a superior credit rating with the Euro banks.

The puzzle is that Boeing will arrange financing too, but only for some airlines.

Boeing made Midwest an offer they couldn't refuse to take the 717's. The leases are all financed by Boeing, on very generous terms.

So I wonder why they wouldn't at least try to do something for Spirit?

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 2:39 pm

I think Boeing's shooting itself in the foot by denying business to airlines- even if they may seem small and pidly to them. Their arch nemesis Airbus is more than happy to sell to F9, B8, HP, etc etc....and I'd assume Spirit too.

Boeing's gonna kill themselves this way. They could have alot of 717 or 738 orders, and Spirit's colors would look AWESOME on one, as opposed to a stupid A320  Big thumbs up

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Fri Feb 27, 2004 12:33 am

As much as I like Boeing, they are going to remain the Worlds #2 Airline manufacturer if they think along those lines. Yeah I know they are doing well with the 737 line, but why not sell 60 more?
 
toltommy
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Fri Feb 27, 2004 12:49 am

"Boeing has a history of treating smaller airlines badly."

Really, Mariner? They seemed to be treating AirTran well (large 737 order, the 717's were odered from MD), Ryanair was a small carrier at one time, same with WestJet. Perhaps Spirit just isn't interested in the 737? I'd like to see the 320 family there myself. I like the wider cabin.
 
acvitale
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Mon Mar 08, 2004 10:08 am

I cannot say who or why but do not look for any 757s or more MD80s but rather I would look for a European plane in large numbers like three digit numbers to be announced in the next 7-12 days
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Mon Mar 08, 2004 10:20 am

That has to be the most bizzare press release I have ever seen from Boeing. If they have such an attitude, why even bother making commercial aircraft anymore? I am sure the military business is much more profitable...

 
AA777MIA
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Mon Mar 08, 2004 10:31 am

Spirit will get the Airbus... Let's just say I have seen them around... =)
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Mon Mar 08, 2004 10:34 am

They seemed to be treating AirTran well

Simply put: AirTran is a major player, Spirit is not. They only serve a handful of destinations.

I agree that Boeing should not turn down orders because they aren't profitable enough. Some profit is better than no profit!

JetBluefan1
 
blueairbureau
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Mon Mar 08, 2004 11:10 am

In the past Boeing has had to eat orders which were not successfully taken up on some of it's a/c's(737ng's). I don't think they really want a "risk". I think they're are firmly planted on the 7E7 right now. If any one comes to the table asking for a handout I'll understand why they'll decline. Let's not forget most of the planes I fly on were bought with a discounted price from Micky D's right off the production line (but not to Spirit) so Micky D could say they sold something and to move already produced product. Do I like Boeing's attitude towards my company? Hell no. We don't deserve it. This company has good survival instincts. While other airlines were handing out so-called furllows (let's be honest they're really delayed pink slips!). My company was launching there plans for new routes. So we don't get boeing, what's the worst that could happen? We could get a good a/c well suited to the point to point flights my airline likes to fly in comparable comfort. The crew members will get a plane we are proud of. We'll get to fly around in one of the snazziest paint schemes in the sky. My company will make more money. I'll get to keep the shirt on my back. And well...........Boeing can plane eat my shorts! HMMMM.
 
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mariner
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Mon Mar 08, 2004 12:38 pm

TOLtommy:

As JetBluefan1 said, the Airtran order is a big order (100 aircraft from memory) and at the time, Airtran was perceived as being the 3rd largest LCC in the country (after SWA and JetBlue).

Ryanair was already a "big" airline and the Boeing order was huge. It was one that Boeing had to win, especially in view of Easyjet's Airbus order.

As the Ryanair CEO said: "I wouldn't even tell my priest the discount I got from Boeing."

I stick by my statement - Boeing has a history of treating smaller airlines badly.

This does not mean they treat all small airlines badly. But we're all scratching our heads as to why Boeing said they weren't interested in the Spirit order.

Why did Boeing even mention it?

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
acvitale
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:14 pm

I would hardly call the Spirit order small at 100 units...

Additionally, I would not call Spirit small.. They are the largest privately held airline in the world.

Boeing deals with ATA not a lot of difference.
 
ckfred
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:45 pm

There is an old saying. Sometimes, the best deal is the one that you don't do. I have heard Phil Condit say that it makes no sense to sell airplanes, unless Boeing can make a reasonable amount of profit.

Harry Stonecipher likes to quote his old boss at GE, Jack Welch. Words to the effect, it's not just the number of units sold, but it's the profit margin on each unit. Sometimes, it's better to sell less at greater margin than a lot at virtually no margin.

If Spirit wants the kind of discount that Airbus is offering, I don't blame Boeing for telling Spirit to take a hike. Airbus is more interested in getting planes delivered, rather than it's profits. Since Boeing must answer to individual and institutional investors, rather than goverments, it has to worry about earnings per share and stock performance.

Boeing tried to see how many planes it could deliver and got into problems. It has to focus on getting the most profit out of each aircraft sold, even if it means less market share.
 
acvitale
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:49 pm

CkFred,

It would have helped if Boeing had offered to talk to Spirit.

The idea that they did NOT want to negotiate with NK bodes poorly.

 
N276AASTT
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Mon Mar 08, 2004 2:34 pm

UH, why isn't Boeing "offering" anything to Spirit? What, is Spirit's money not good enough for them? They shouldn't let what happened with Frontier happen to them again. Frontier was a 737 fleet. Frontier was in the market for new jets and Boeing didn't do much. Airbus won a huge order. Boeing's financial situation should prevent them from having that kind of "attitude." They need money, plane and simple. It shouldn't matter from what airline it comes from or what discounts they want. Stop thumbing your nose Boeing, and start jumping through hoops! If they're going to be like that then more power to Spirit, Airbus and EMB.
Dejale Caer tu el Peso! YOMO
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Mon Mar 08, 2004 3:12 pm

Since Boeing must answer to individual and institutional investors, rather than goverments, it has to worry about earnings per share and stock performance.

This is the year 2004, Ckfred. Airbus is owned by EADS and BAe Systems, both of which are also publically traded companies just like Boeing. Airbus still has to answer to its shareholders at the end of the day.

http://www.finance.eads.net/efaq.html
http://ir.baesystems.com/
http://www.airbus.com/about/euro_manufact.asp
 
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mariner
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Mon Mar 08, 2004 3:25 pm

Activale:

Um - I didn't say "small" - I said "smaller". I think there's a difference.

And, as I understand it the order will be for 60 aircraft, not 100.

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/business/8022797.htm

Not that it makes a lot of dfference. 60 aircraft is 60 aircraft, which, properly priced, would bring in good profits to the manufacturer.

The puzzle is not about Spirit, for whom I am full of admiration, They were turned down for an ATSB backed loan, but they have survived and they've found the money on the open market.

Maybe they could tell UAL how they did it.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

The puzzle is about Boeing, and why they seem - stress seem - not to want the order.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
greaser
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Mon Mar 08, 2004 6:15 pm

You people should not jump to conclusions, that news report was not even detailed, something happened between Boeing & Spirit.
It's almost certain that they will get airbus, but would you know why?? Or are u speculating.
Hell, maybe Spirit had a 60/70% off deal from Airbus, and since Boeing cannot reciprocate, no point of participating! Its just like the IB order, just a waste of time.
Now you're really flying
 
elwood64151
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:44 am

Remember that, before the FL 737-700 deal, there was a lot of press saying that Boeing wasn't interested in selling to FL. That largely centered around the 717-300, but many people were stating that FL wouldn't give Boeing the time of day.

I doubt Big-B is ignoring Spirit.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
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mariner
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RE: Spirit Ruling Out Boeing?

Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:56 am

Greaser:

I'm not suggesting they will go with Airbus because I don't know that they will. They are in talks with Embraer as well.

And, as Elwood says, they may possibly go with Boeing after all. The puzzle is why Boeing would come out with the press release saying they weren't offering to Spirit?

But what is this 60/70% Airbus discount that you mention? Frontier didn't get a 60/70% discount. List price for the A319 is about $45 million per unit and Frontier is paying about $36 million per unit. That's a 20% discount off list which is fairly standard.

Some airlines may get a steeper discount (maybe - I don't know), but why would Airbus give it to Spirit and not give it to Frontier?

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta

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