ssides
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FAA Recommends Weighing Passengers

Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:45 am

Interesting story resulting from USAirways Express/Air Midwest 5481. I doubt people will ever go for it.

Here's the link; I'll try to find it from another source that doesn't require sign-up:

http://www.statesman.com/news/content/shared-gen/ap/National/Airlines_Passenger_Weight.html?urcm=y

[Edited 2004-02-27 02:49:43]
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
ssides
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RE: FAA Recommends Weighing Passengers

Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:54 am

Here's another link, but it doesn't mention the "weigh-in" proposal:

http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/040226/crash_airmidwest_3.html
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
tekelberry
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RE: FAA Recommends Weighing Passengers

Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:55 am

 
ssides
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RE: FAA Recommends Weighing Passengers

Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:01 am

Thanks, Tekelberry.

F

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L

L

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"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
WMUPilot
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RE: FAA Recommends Weighing Passengers

Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:15 am

And the FAA is suppose to promote flying? I fail to see how this is going to help. If you've seen Pushing Tin you all know the line. "The FAA, F**ked Again and Again
JetBlue - Bringing humanity back to air travel
 
Type-Rated
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RE: FAA Recommends Weighing Passengers

Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:25 am

Here is the official synopsis from the NTSB that was discussed at the hearing in Washington today. It's all here......

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2004/AAR0401.htm

I found the findings rather shocking myself.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
cptkrell
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RE: FAA Recommends Weighing Passengers

Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:35 am

Well, I saw an NBC News spot tonight that referenced the 1-yr ann. of USAir(?) commuter crash in Carolina that attributed, basically, a combination of overweight/cg and "misrigged" controls. Interviews with two surviving family members were "outraged" that the airline only estimated gross weight. I am entirely sure that these would be the same type of people who would gladly file a discrimination lawsuit when a reg is enacted to calculate "exact" weight by weighing the baggage AND individual passengers. How dare??

As a matter of fact, a trial balloon was sent up on this subject a while back and response from the public was predictable gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands. Regards...Jack
all best; jack
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: FAA Recommends Weighing Passengers

Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:36 am

I wouldn't mind stepping on a scale if it provides an accurate weight for the aircraft. I would hate to be on an aircraft and it crashed just because somebody couldn't step on a scale.
Puhdiddle
 
ssides
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RE: FAA Recommends Weighing Passengers

Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:41 am

The expense and time of accumulating all this information would significantly cut into airlines' bottom lines. Hopefully, this will never be implemented.

I am not a physicist or aeronautics expert, but it seems to me that this issue only really affects small commuter aircraft. The accident here involved a Beech 1900, which only holds 19 passengers. I have never been asked to change seats for weight balance on a DC-9 or MD-80, but I have on RJs and Saab340s. It seems to me that the powerful engines on the larger jet aircraft more than compensate for any weight problems. If anything, it's the smaller aircraft that the FAA should focus on. If they insist on this, they should consider that it's a hell of a lot easier to weigh 34 passengers on a Saab than 200+ on a 777.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
flyf15
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RE: FAA Recommends Weighing Passengers

Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:47 am

Seems like it would be pretty simple to have each passenger step on a scale in the floor at checkin or even during boarding. All the data then goes to a computer which would compute the weight and balance and automatically decide if people needed to be moved.
 
Type-Rated
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RE: FAA Recommends Weighing Passengers

Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:53 am

Actually the cause of this accident was the combination of an aft CG and misrigged elevator control cables. Had the CG not been so far aft the accident wouldn't have happened and had the elevators not been misrigged the accident wouldn't have happened. It was the combination of the two that caused the accident. That's why this a/c flew successfully for several days after MX before the accident.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
ANX4fishing
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RE: FAA Recommends Weighing Passengers

Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:56 am

Perhaps the airports can install a truck scale and have every pax step on it together. Take the weight, divide it by number of people, to get the average weight of the pax. If the number of pax exceed the acceptable weight for a max take-off weight, start handing out free tix and drink vouchers.

All said in tongue-and-cheek.

: )
 
JFernandez
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RE: FAA Recommends Weighing Passengers

Fri Feb 27, 2004 5:19 pm

I don't particularly have a problem with the airlines weighing me in order to figure out how to balance out a plane. I recall doing some moving around in an American Eagle Saab 340B, because a bunch of us big guys were on the A aisle. I understand the physics behind it, no problem.

Of course, if the airlines start deciding to do some funky stuff with that info....
 
FlyPIJets
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RE: FAA Recommends Weighing Passengers

Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:11 am

I don't how many of you out there are entrepreneurial, but I see a business opportunity. Scales that relay info to a computer system. I imagine a pad located at the checkin counter, when you walk up to check-in, the agent automatically gets your weight, and assigns it to a flight.

The local TV station here is currently conducting an on-line poll asking if people would be offended by being weighed at check in. About 50% object. Airlines aren't going to do this unless it is mandated.

If the FAA is going to continue to allow airlines to assign an average weight, that is obviously something the FAA needs to survey every two, three or five years or so. Its pretty scary they weren't.


Rex Kramer: Get that finger out of your ear! You don't know where that finger's been!
 
contrails
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RE: FAA Recommends Weighing Passengers

Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:27 am

FlyPIJets said what I was thinking. This shouldn't be difficult to do.

This, imo, should be more of an issue for the puddle-jumpers and RJ's, rather than the mainline jets. But regardless, I believe if it happens a lot of people will stop flying out of fear of being embarrased in some way.

But I don't think the FAA will do it, unless there is another crash under similar circumstances.
Flying Colors Forever!
 
JGPH1A
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RE: FAA Recommends Weighing Passengers

Sat Feb 28, 2004 3:05 am

I wouldn't object (I've been weighed before going on helicopter flights, for instance), as long as they don't have a big digital readout over the checkin counter, or a siren if you're over the limit  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
freshlove1
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RE: FAA Recommends Weighing Passengers

Sat Feb 28, 2004 4:17 am

They did change the weights for the bags and passengers. The Beech 1900D's engines are more then powerful enough for 19 pax and 35 bags with 2800lbs of fuel, and there is room to spare. In this case the mtc. people screwed up and it cost 21 people their lives. The passenger weights have been changed to 200lb per person for the whole year, and 30 pounds per checked bag, carryons are 20 lb if in the back, or 10 lbs if in the coat closet. It used to be that Pax were 165lb in the spring and summer and 175lb in the fall and winter and bag weights were 25lb for ckd and 10 for carry ons no matter where they were put. I think that 200lb is a good weight avg. for everyone, children under 12 are considered 80 lbs. How many 200lb women do you know?? so it averages out, along with the bag weights. Yeah you may get a 50lb checked bag and you might aslo get a 10lb checked bag, your avg there is 30 lb, which is what it was changed to. Its to bad that something like this had to happen for all this to be changed. Hopefully this never happens again.
 
ssides
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RE: FAA Recommends Weighing Passengers

Sat Feb 28, 2004 4:22 am

I imagine a pad located at the checkin counter, when you walk up to check-in, the agent automatically gets your weight, and assigns it to a flight.


This sort of system already exists for baggage. It's not at every airport, but it does exist.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
PVD757
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RE: FAA Recommends Weighing Passengers

Sat Feb 28, 2004 4:32 am

I've seen AE Saab 340s leaving the airport(when we had them), where the ground handler had to kick or hit the tail pole out from under the plane. This was bound to happen eventually. It's a shame that there are so many issues that the FAA has to try to resolve that they can only manage the most critical issues. The only way your issue becomes more critical is by killing people.
 
ckfred
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RE: FAA Recommends Weighing Passengers

Sat Feb 28, 2004 5:53 am

A pilot friend of mine has told me that there are different weights, depending on whose flying. If there is a charter of grade school kids going to MCO, the standard weights won't be used. On the other hand, if the charter is for an NFL team going to a game, the avg. weight is moved up to around 275 per passenger.
 
Tom in NO
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RE: FAA Recommends Weighing Passengers

Sat Feb 28, 2004 5:59 am

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the ACLU will have a field day with this one, claiming privacy issues.

Tom at MSY
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
 
PVD757
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RE: FAA Recommends Weighing Passengers

Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:02 am

The funny thing is is that the ACLU wouldn't have a case. No one is requiring the public to fly. If you want to fly, this is what you have to do. If I'm not mistaken, they initially objected to the searching of bags due to privacy also.
 
SSTjumbo
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RE: FAA Recommends Weighing Passengers

Sat Feb 28, 2004 2:53 pm

Most large transport category aircraft already have a way of internally calculating weight and balance, though I forget the specifics. Basically, it's the pneumatic cylinders in the wheel struts that sense PSI based on how heavily the plane is loaded, then it runs through some complex formula in a computer onboard the aircraft and the weight & balance can be displayed in the cockpit. The quirk, this is somewhat pricey to put on an aircraft and commuters aren't normally willing to pay the price to install the necessary components on small aircraft. Personally, I think it's a necessary cost on every transport category aircraft that should be mandated by the FAA. Somebody who knows more about this please correct me if I'm wrong.
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andz
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RE: FAA Recommends Weighing Passengers

Sun Mar 07, 2004 6:09 am

Found this on SAA's website from last September....

01 September, 2003, JOHANNESBURG: South African Airways’ (SAA) 5-yearly voluntary passenger weighing survey is underway. This is meant to calculate the correct take-off weight for the airline’s aircraft in order to maintain the safety of its passengers and comply with international civil aviation regulations.
The survey will take place just before boarding on randomly chosen international, regional and domestic SAA flights for the next month at Johannesburg International Airport and will move on to Cape Town International Airport.
At least 5000 passengers will be asked to volunteer only a few minutes of their time before travelling.
During the weighing process, passengers are weighed on one scale, while another is used to weigh their hand luggage. The scales are linked to a computer and results are immediately captured by an operator. The process is completely confidential with the indicator only visible to the data capturer. The weight of a passenger includes the weight of hand luggage carried on board.
The process began with the weighing of SAA’s crew members in August. They are weighed for the same reason as passengers are.
The Masskot scales have been donated by Mass Measuring Systems for the duration of the survey.
Data from the survey is used to update the standard weights of an adult male, female and child, including their hand luggage.
The last survey found the average weight of a male to be 91kg, 72 kilograms for a female and the average weight for a child stands at 35 kilograms.
Although weights are set by the Civil Aviation Authority by which all airlines must adhere to, SAA as one of the leaders in aviation safety goes one step further in weighing its passengers every 5 years.
The results of SAA’s passenger weighing survey will be made available to the International Air Transport Association (IATA) and distributed to airline across the world.
These figures will be updated during the new survey and SAA will make provisions to ensure the continued safety of its passengers.
Through the passenger weighing survey, SAA is reinforcing its commitment to safety, which is its number one priority.
Factors considered when calculating the correct take-off weight of SAA aircraft include not only the weight of passenger and crew but the fuel, cargo, checked-in baggage and food weight.
The basic weight of an aircraft is also taken into account. Aircraft are weighed every four years.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
dairbus
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RE: FAA Recommends Weighing Passengers

Sun Mar 07, 2004 10:40 am

On a related note, Delta had problems with excessive baggage weight on their flights to Lima, Peru about a year and a half ago. The ramp crew was asked to weigh all bags, time allowing, before loading on the airplane and to keep a record of the weights. They did this for two weeks and forwarded the data to flight ops engineering. I never found out if anything was changed but at least someone was looking into the issue.
"I love mankind. It's people I can't stand." - Charles Shultz
 
jjbiv
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RE: FAA Recommends Weighing Passengers

Mon Mar 08, 2004 4:51 am

Just a few minor corrections:

On the Saab, weight and balance is key. The aircraft is nose heavy, hence the F/A may ask those seated in the front half of the aircraft to take a seat more toward the rear. A/BC side weight and balance is not calculated as the arms are too small to make a difference.

Secondly, the tail stand's only function is to prevent the tail from settling to the ground if a lot of baggage is loaded and customers sit in the rear rows before those sitting the forward rows board. Conceivably, this could cause the tail to strike the ground. Just because the tail stand is on the ground or is difficult to remove does not invalidate the weight and balance calculated for the flight; nor does an aircraft's appearance as "tail heavy" or a large degree of landing gear strut extension necessarily mean anything significant. These are perfectly acceptable conditions, although rare. Keep in mind that once both engines are started and brought out of feather, they produce a forward force further helping the situation.

All that said, with the way people pack and eat these days, the Saab is a de facto 30 passenger plane.

joe
 
mrwayne
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RE: FAA Recommends Weighing Passengers

Mon Mar 08, 2004 4:53 am

Thats half the seats on transatlantics taken out of service then!!!!
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: FAA Recommends Weighing Passengers

Mon Mar 08, 2004 5:01 am

Guys. It's NOT that bad.

I flew on an Air Midwest 1900 on the one-month anniversary of the crash. I was asked for my weight (and they added 10 pounds), then they weighed my bags. It was NOT bad, nor was it embarrassing...the other passengers on the aircraft agreed.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
Alpha 1
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RE: FAA Recommends Weighing Passengers

Mon Mar 08, 2004 5:04 am

This is an over-reaction to a tragedy. Estimating weights has worked well for years, without much in the way of incident. But, like putting up the nets at all NHL Arenas after one single death by a puck striking a fan, now the government wants to put everyone on the scales on flights. I think it's an unnecessary step.

Plus, I'm sure more than one airline will end up being sued by someone overweight for causing them pain and public humiliation, or something along those lines. It's almost a certainty.
 
KaiGywer
Crew
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RE: FAA Recommends Weighing Passengers

Mon Mar 08, 2004 5:07 am

Secondly, the tail stand's only function is to prevent the tail from settling to the ground if a lot of baggage is loaded and customers sit in the rear rows before those sitting the forward rows board. Conceivably, this could cause the tail to strike the ground. Just because the tail stand is on the ground or is difficult to remove does not invalidate the weight and balance calculated for the flight; nor does an aircraft's appearance as "tail heavy" or a large degree of landing gear strut extension necessarily mean anything significant. These are perfectly acceptable conditions, although rare. Keep in mind that once both engines are started and brought out of feather, they produce a forward force further helping the situation.

It happens all the time. If the bags are loaded before the pax, it will often settle on the tail stand. If this happens, and it doesn't come loose even after the pax are on board, the crew will start #2, and the force from the prop will make enough forward pressure that the tail stand will come free.
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an

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