keesje
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NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:29 pm

What will Northwest Airlines select if they start replacing all DC10/ older 747's (on top of 330-200/300), if they can start investing again ?

A340-500/600 ?


or

Boeing 777-200ER/300ER


New 747-400ER (adv) is possible too, however not many are sold lately.

Somewhere in the next 5 year they could make a decision, range / cargo capasity is important on their many Pacific routes ..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Guest

RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:44 pm

I'm not to sure if they'll get either, maybe just increase the number of A332's and A333's... but if they did opt for a bigger aircraft I would guess it would be..

The A340-500/600

Reason

NWA is going for an all airbus fleet so this aircraft would allow any pilot trained on one of the other Airbus aircraft would be able to fly it... SIMPLE!

Regards,

Milo
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:49 pm

I agree. With the A330 already in the fleet, it just makes sense. One could argue that the 777 would have cockpit commonality with the 744, but there are slight differences between the two. The A345 would be an interesting addition for NW's pacific routes too.

P.S. I'd love to see someone put the red, black and gray stripped livery on the A345. That would look good IMO.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sat Feb 28, 2004 12:59 am

NWA is going for an all airbus fleet

...uh, no they arent.

Anderson has stated time and time again that they have no intention of going to a single supplier.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
desertjets
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:36 am

As the current future of the 747-200 fleet is still in limbo NW can do many things. If demand for transpac and Asian regional traffic moves up I could see Northwest keeping the 747-200s longer. If demand is soft I can easily see them adding a few A330-200/300s to their current order to replace the DC-10s and 747-200s still flying. They could also pick up a few new or used 747-400s as well.

It seems that Northwest is VERY flexible in its fleet decisions and when they finally do decide to make a major order it will be because the aircraft fits the needed mission profile the best.
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yul332LX
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:40 am

NWA has no need for the A345 but the 346 could easily replace the 742s if NWA ever decides to get rid of them.

They’ll have to replace them within 30 years or so (just like the DC9s)! Big grin
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
syncmaster
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:48 am

NW is NOT going to an All Airbus fleet, they just bought 753's that will be around for a while, as well as more 744's. They are going for whatever is cheaper in the long run, weather it be Airbus or Boeing.
 
Horus
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:57 am

I hope they go for the B777 but I think it is more likely they will go for the A340 for the same reason EGFFbmi gave.
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AA787
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sat Feb 28, 2004 3:07 am

NWA will replace the 742's and the DC9's when most airlines retire their 7E7's  Big grin
ET In NYC
 
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Heavierthanair
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sat Feb 28, 2004 3:13 am

G'day

Would someone please alert the driver of that 345 that the center gear has not extended. The red bulb for the center gear may have burnt out - pardon me - that particular section of the display may not be working.

Cheers

Peter
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879 - 1955)
 
coa764
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sat Feb 28, 2004 3:15 am

For commonality and cost issues the A340 would be the wise choice
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delta767-400ER
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sat Feb 28, 2004 3:23 am

Whatever NWA chooses it will have to have a Pratt&Whitney engine for it. So far the only engine for the B777-300ER is the GE 90-115B and on the A340-500/600 is the Rolls-Royce Trent 553 and 556 series engines and NWA does not prefer either of them so P&W will have to make an engine for them.




Let's see what they decide
 
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jetjack74
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sat Feb 28, 2004 3:23 am

The engine types offered are not compatible with what they want.
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JBirdAV8r
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sat Feb 28, 2004 3:30 am

NWA is going for an all airbus fleet

Source please.

Baseless comments such as these really detract from the usefulness of the forums and, quite frankly, make them a laughingstock among industry insiders.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sat Feb 28, 2004 3:35 am

NW stated in their release as to why they chose the A330 as their transatlantic ship that, should they choose a 300-350seater, PW engines would not be a limiting factor.

PW-powered 772s are looked upon unfavorably; and PW engines are not, nor will they ever be, an optin on the 777NGs.

Something of an advantage to Airbus is that they could theoretically offer the A340NGs with PW engines, should sufficient demand be proven.

Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
isitsafenow
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sat Feb 28, 2004 3:39 am

According to a news release by NW a couple of years ago, the 757-300 is replacing the DC10-40, what NW referred to as the domestic version. The A 330 will replace the Model 30, with NW referred to in the same newsrelease as the international version. Don't look for the 747-400 to be replaced for a while, with only one or two cycles a day, they may outlast the DC 9's.
OHHHH MYYYYYY!!!!!!!
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gigneil
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sat Feb 28, 2004 3:40 am

The 777-300ER/-200LR will never have any other engine than the one it has.

The 345/346 could easily get a Pratt engine, assuming Pratt had one.

I wouldn't expect 777s or 340s, just more 330 flying.

N
 
jwenting
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sat Feb 28, 2004 4:51 am

hmm, given that KLM supposedly got A330s because NWA has them (real reason is more likely that AF wants them), the logical choice would be NWA getting 777s because KLM has them  Laugh out loud
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yyz717
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sat Feb 28, 2004 5:27 am

NW's long haul needs based on their current network can be satisfied by the 744, 332/333. Since most of their Asia services hub thru NRT, there is no need for an ultra-range aircraft.

If NW evers decides to operate Asia nonstops bypassing the NRT hub, then a small fleet of 345/772LR gauge aircraft would be needed, but it would remain unlikely that NW would add another type or subtype in only small numbers.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
frontiers4ever
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sat Feb 28, 2004 5:50 am

Doesnt GE have a exclusive contract for the 300ER/200LR engines with Boeing?
I think i remember something like that but I am probably wrong.

-Frontiers4ever
Until you prove, your right, your wrong
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sat Feb 28, 2004 5:54 am

Doesnt GE have a exclusive contract for the 300ER/200LR engines with Boeing?

yep
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
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yyz717
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sat Feb 28, 2004 10:57 am

Doesnt GE have a exclusive contract for the 300ER/200LR engines with Boeing?

Yes, in theory. At least until a customer comes along with a prospective order for 20 772LR/773ER with RR or PW engines. Then, things will change.




I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Korg747
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sat Feb 28, 2004 11:21 am

"Yes, in theory. At least until a customer comes along with a prospective order for 20 772LR/773ER with RR or PW engines. Then, things will change."

I don't think so. GE is and will be the only engine available for the 773ER/772LR. GE and Boeing signed an exclusive agreement.

Please excuse my English!
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sat Feb 28, 2004 11:21 am

Doesnt GE have a exclusive contract for the 300ER/200LR engines with Boeing?

Yes, in theory. At least until a customer comes along with a prospective order for 20 772LR/773ER with RR or PW engines. Then, things will change.


Don't hold your breath. It'll take a bigger block order than 20-30 frames to override the GE exclusive deal. I'm not sure, but I think Boeing is legally obligated to offer GE's only.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
NLINK
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sat Feb 28, 2004 12:31 pm

I am sure there is a time period when that is up, doubt Boeing would sign something that would potentiality damage sales long term, so maybe 5 years they can offer another engine. That is just a theory, I haven't really researched it.
 
baw2198
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:09 pm

NW would be smart if they went for the 777-300. Reason being is the versitility it would give NW. If the overseas market slows down (ie another sars case). You could at least go coast to coast with the 777 and not have it be a wasted resource. Don't get me wrong, airbus makes a good product, but it would better suit NW's needs domestic and international to go with the 777-300
"And remember, Keep your stick on the ice"--->Red Green
 
gigneil
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:15 pm

You could at least go coast to coast with the 777 and not have it be a wasted resource.

A 777-300 for any US carrier on domestic services would be a waste, and NW would need 773ERs to do any real services with them.

NW has zero domestic widebody needs much less a 350 seat plane.

Yes, in theory. At least until a customer comes along with a prospective order for 20 772LR/773ER with RR or PW engines. Then, things will change.

Things might change, and then GE would sue Boeing for $250 million, and things would change back.

N
 
baw2198
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:27 pm

A 777-300 for any US carrier on domestic services would be a waste.


Like using a 763/4 isn't?

Ok, all-be-it that the 773ER/LR holds 80-90 pax more, if the market is there then why not use it for that purpose. More pax, more revenue. DL does this already out of ATL going to florida and MSY with 763/4's. So why not a 773? NW could then better utilize there 9's- 752/3's elsewhere and open up new markets.
"And remember, Keep your stick on the ice"--->Red Green
 
Thales007
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sat Feb 28, 2004 2:53 pm

I am sure there is a time period when that is up, doubt Boeing would sign something that would potentiality damage sales long term, so maybe 5 years they can offer another engine. That is just a theory, I haven't really researched it.

Well, you are right that Boeing would not be so stupid as to sign an exclusivity agreement that would damage long-term sales.


Lots of people here constantly whine and moan about Boeing's "stupidity" of offering only the GE90. Yet the 773ER/GE90-115B combination has proven to deliver superb performance beyond original expectations, so much that
ANA, JAL, Emirates, and possibly SQ are willing to buy the 773ER even though the engine type may not fit with their fleets.
 
rjpieces
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sat Feb 28, 2004 3:08 pm

Baw1298, it is not that simple. Fleet planning is very complex and not as simple as "80 more pax, it can be done." Just to go on your example: To operate a 777 on a route like that just because it can fill up the plane doesn't mean it will be profitable. Keep in mind that the 777 costs more to begin with, costs more to operate, and has higher pilot costs. If you were DL, where would you choose to operate your 777s to?

And what do you have against the 767? It has opened up so many new markets and there is a huge difference between saying "the 773Er would be bad for US domestic routes" and "the 767 is bad for US domestic routes."
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
N79969
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sat Feb 28, 2004 3:32 pm

If NWA ever decides to get something between the 330 and 747, I think the B777 has a really good chance of being selected-. If a company like Air France which operates a huge fleet of 320-series/330/340 airplanes would choose the 772ER/773ER for fleet expansion over 345/346-series, then I don't see why Northwest would not either.

Cockpit commonality is not the end-all/be-all consideration. The A340NG-series is basically a very, very long A310 in terms of space. The B777 offers more space, more speed (which can save on fuel and crew costs), and potentially lower maintenance costs.
 
maiznblu_757
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sat Feb 28, 2004 4:06 pm

I hope NW goes with the A340. Besides it making sense, fitting in with their fleet plans, its a great looking plane.

 
Korg747
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sat Feb 28, 2004 10:52 pm

You guys talk as if the Regular 773 will not do it for NW. It can have Pw engines and has some what a common cockpit with the 744s. Doesn't the 773 have the same range as the 742s? I think it would make an excellent replacement for the 742s!
Please excuse my English!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sun Feb 29, 2004 1:48 am

It can have Pw engines and has some what a common cockpit with the 744s.

NW has already illustrated its frustration in the PW4090 powered 773; only one airline ever purchased the PW4098 as it failed to reach its target fuel efficiency miserably; and no 777 and 747 models share cockpit commonality
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
sv11
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sun Feb 29, 2004 4:34 am

I think NWA is going to operate the twin A330-200 over the Pacific. If that works well for them, they might order a bigger twin like the 777-300ER to replace the 747-200s. the 777 is an awesome machine and airlines like singapore, ANA, Korean have started flying it on Pacific routes (sia's lax-tpe-sin and sin-sel-sfo routes come to mind). with regard to PW engine I think NWA orders it if it is available but if you look at the A320 aircraft in their fleet, it is powered by CFM56 rather than the IAEV2500 (which PW is a partner on)

sv11
 
baw2198
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RE: NWA Boeing 777-300ER Or Airbus A340-500/600?

Sun Feb 29, 2004 5:09 am

Rjpieces

I was meerly making the point to "Gigneil" that the 777-300ER/LR would NOT be a wasted resource as far as using them on the domestic side. My argument was that if the market could use a 767 or 777 on a route, then using them would make sense.

To answer the second part: I wasn't trashing either the 767 or the 777.


Cheers
Baw2198
"And remember, Keep your stick on the ice"--->Red Green