rutankrd
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Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Tue Mar 02, 2004 1:55 am

Does any know whether a near miss report is/has been submitted for an incident at Manchester yesterday morning involving a Ryanair B732 and a My Travel A321.
The Ryanair plane landed on 06R shortly after a Turkish B738 and proceeded at high speed to vacate. The Turkish aircraft was held short of 06L but the Ryanair plane just darted across 06L without a bye or leave !
At the time the MYT A321 was given take off clearance and was rolling on 06L and to avoid collision with the RYR B732 necessitated not just an abort but a full blow emergency stop smoking brakes the works !
It then had to taxi off the runway and initially taxied back to begin another attempt but having stopped short of the runway clearly the brake were so hot it returned to stand and was delayed for several hours after that !
THIS type of incident was forecast by many when the staggered runway scheme was proposed !
Who is to blame RYR Manchester Tower Ground etc....
It was quite major incident I my eyes and there were a number of spotters and others that simply just missed it !
But any ways any professionals ATC/MYT/RYR knows any thing ?
 
A3204eva
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Tue Mar 02, 2004 2:04 am

I was spotting at Manchester yesterday but I didn't get there till 12:30 so I missed it.  Sad

I also had my digital camera with me- got some photos of Concorde parked at a gate.  Smile
"They have lady pilots......... they're not that good, but they have 'em"
 
N754PR
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Tue Mar 02, 2004 2:07 am

Thats another reason not to fly Ryanair!!
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
voodoo
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Tue Mar 02, 2004 2:10 am

Might want to check Pprune.org
Doesn't sound good. Especially after that fuss a year or two ago where it was said FR pilots were under pressure to taxi fast.
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
travelmark
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Tue Mar 02, 2004 2:11 am

what does "not flying Ryanair" have to do with the situation, beg my ignorance.
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Tue Mar 02, 2004 2:11 am

Was the Ryanair Aircraft told to hold short of 6L??

Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
sabenapilot
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Tue Mar 02, 2004 2:19 am

BMIflyer,
Unless specifically mentioned on taxi charts (like for the parallel runway in LGW or VCE for instance, which are used as taxiways), you do not cross any runway (not even one that is not in use) without positive crossing instruction from the TWR!
And this is not a 'Good Operating Practice', it is a MUST, its the LAW...
With your car, you stop for a red traffic light, with a plane, you stop for a holding point at a runway.

 
FlyingColours
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Tue Mar 02, 2004 2:46 am

Shocking,

Any idea what the reg's are particularly the MYT A321.

Crossing runways without permission, especially the active I can sense some wings being clipped.

What about TCAS, I know the MYT crew would have seen it visually through the windows and then on TCAS complete with Aural alarms but what about the FR, surley they would have seen it in there since I thought all aircraft in the UK need TCAS.

Ryanair pilots used to be known for speeding on the taxiways all the time, thats where the idea of them being in a big hurry. Then again there are those schedules to keep. But crossing the active......

Did they swap aircraft afterwards, since I would have figured that the A321 went tech since they heated the brakes a bit.

At least they stopped, MAN should not be known for two bad accidents, its bad enough with the one.

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
col
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Tue Mar 02, 2004 3:40 am

I was at MAN yesterday travelling back home to USA. I could not believe the whole situation. The 321 was G-SMTJ, it came back and parked next to the BMI 320 I was travelling down to LHR on.

The Turkish 738 landed on 06R and was followed by the Ryanair 732. The TK landed and taxied off the earlier runway turn off, while the Ryanair continued at high speed to runway end and shot in front of TK, and boy was he travelling, never seen anything like it. The FR 732 just continued taxiing at high speed right across 06L, making the MYT 321 brake hard on it's take off run, with a huge amount of smoke coming from the brakes themselves. Unfortunately for our FR friend there was a European 742 held up in front of him, so he did not get too far after clearing the runway. The 321 did attempt to go to the runway again, but returned back to it's original stand. It was still there when we left.

I don't know if it was air traffic error or FR, but from my view point this guy was a danger to himself and the pax. The speed at which he turned the plane must have put a huge amount of pressure on the nose gear. If I were MYT I would get a lawyer on this incident. Don't thing I will use that airline, my life is important to me.

Col
 
rutankrd
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Tue Mar 02, 2004 3:56 am

Col
Thats exactly what I saw having actually arrived on the very BMI airbus FROM Heathrow and parked on Pier B coz stand 18 was occupied by another sick BMI plane !
Had to travel to domestic on a left hand drive Bus !
Oh and traveled back on The new A319 on BD595 later the same day.
I agree i'll be sticking with BMI rather than RYR myself as well least you still get a bacon and egg panini even in steerage on the early morning flights.
 
col
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Tue Mar 02, 2004 4:04 am

Rutankrd

We only got a bag of pretzels on our flight. The 321 on the stand I believe was hit by ground equipment. All the pax transferred to our flight where possible. I did not realise BMI had 319 yet, beats those old 737's they used to use. Heathrow was the usual dump, keep saying I will use MAN as my gateway, but VS from Boston was better than using BA/AA with their old 763's into MAN.

I have never seen an aircraft move that quick on the ground except for take off, is FR always like this?

 
Leezyjet
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:19 am

When I worked at MAN I was driving along the airside road past the FLS hanger when this FR 732 came shooting past heading to T2. I thought I wonder how fast he's going so I accelerated until I was travelling at the same speed then looked at the speedometer. I was going 45mph !!!!.

This kind of speed is pretty normal for FR, but I personally think it is far too fast when taxiing especially at busy airports like MAN.

 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
Londoncenter
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Wed Mar 03, 2004 1:17 am

When I was training to be an air traffic controller I spent 6 months in manchester tower, and yes, FR do taxi with "the pedal to the metal" so to speak. They are on very tight schedules and due to no replacement aircraft being available most of the time, a 10 min delay on a flight means a 10 min delay on all their flights with that particular aircraft for the whole day. Which isn't good for PR or their stats! When I was their I never saw ryanair race over the active like that but they would pften call for departure clearance on the delivery freq as they were still taxiing to gate! As a little bit of fun we'd sometimes route them behind a slow PIA 747 just to see the air rage tail-gateing that went on!
 
Londoncenter
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Wed Mar 03, 2004 1:23 am

And just to point out that phraseology procedures at MAN governing taxiing to a runway state that the taxiway be given first then the holding point and then the instruction to hold short of the runway:

e.g. taxiway Delta, holding point delta 1, hold short of runway 24R/06L.

These procedures were designed to specifically point out to pilots that the hold short instruction was most important by placing it at the end of the sentence. These instruction, as far as I'm aware, are specific to MAN and were brought in with the opening of the second runway.
 
Airplanepics
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Wed Mar 03, 2004 1:32 am

What was the reg of the FR plane?


-Pics
Simon - London-Aviation.com
 
shankly
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Wed Mar 03, 2004 2:24 am

There have been a few accidents over the years, notably to a Caravelle and a DC-8 where "hot" brakes caused an in-flight fire leading to the destruction of the aircraft in question.

Its first worth noting that most FR flights involve short taxi runs at low utilization airports. But given FR pilots undoudted and well documented high-speed driving abilities, what's is the relative risk of over-doing the brakes on a swift out-bound taxi run at say a busy and long distance taxi airport like MAN, perhaps exacerbated by maybe poor viz inducing the constant braking, which leads to something nasty burning in the wheelwells shortly after departure?
L1011 - P F M
 
Demoose
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Thu Mar 04, 2004 11:09 pm

As I expected, the Manchester Evening News have got their hands on this story now, and their dramatisation of events can be read here

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/news/stories/Detail_LinkStory=83120.html

Their story contains little fact, mostly opinions and eyewitness accounts from unnamed sources, most likely some of their story came from this thread.


"A source at the air traffic control tower at Manchester Airport confirmed both aircraft were on the runway at the same time when they should not have been. Another airport source told the MEN that the MyTravel jet had reached 100mph before the pilot slammed on the brakes.

Ryanair today said air traffic control was responsible for the incident...

...Keith Doherty, a sales manager from London, told a plane-spotters' website: "To avoid collision necessitated not just an abort, but a full-blown emergency stop (with) smoking brakes - the works!

This type of incident was forecast by many when the staggered runway scheme was proposed." Mr Doherty added: "It was quite (a) major incident in my eyes."

...Another eye-witness told the website: "I could not believe the whole situation...

"...boy was he travelling, never seen anything like it. The FR 732 (Ryanair) just continued taxiing at high speed right across 06L (runway one), making the MYT 321 (MyTravel) brake hard on its take-off run, with a huge amount of smoke from the brakes."

A for Ryanair spokesman said: "A Ryanair aircraft was one of the airlines involved. The aircraft was complying with air traffic control instructions."

And a spokesman for MyTravel said: "We can confirm that a MyTravel aircraft carried out an aborted take-off for safety reasons."


Mark



Take a ride...fly across the sky
 
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Thu Mar 04, 2004 11:39 pm

Rutankrd and Col, nice to see the Manchester Evening News just lifting your comments from this website and giving your real name and occupation! Nothing like investiagtive journalism eh!
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Fri Mar 05, 2004 4:49 am

See the BBC has picked up on this now, though without widely quoting AirNet members!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/3534245.stm
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
FLYtoEGCC
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Fri Mar 05, 2004 5:28 am

Ryanair are claiming that their pilot was acting on ATC instructions. However, do pilots not look left and right before crossing an active runway? Common sense dictates that if you're crossing an active runway, even if you have clearance, you would check to make sure nothing's coming, as human error can occur. If the A321 was up to 100-120mph, it must have been a fair way into its take-off roll, and surely the FR pilots would have seen it coming if they'd looked and not taxied out on to 6L/24R.
Not trying to blame anyone here, it's a genuine question.

FR pilots do taxi fast, it is very noticeable on board.
Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away...
 
mhodgson
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Fri Mar 05, 2004 7:56 am

I just saw a report of the incident on BBC North West Tonight (with a correspondant live from Manchester, and film taken through the fence - still with fence in shot!!!), apparantly the controller in question has been suspended pending investigation.
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col
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:07 pm

I do not believe the FR pilot would have looked, he was travelling fairly fast, even if he would have seen the 321 stopping would have been difficult.

If i'd have known I'd be in the UK press I would have spiced it up a bit, FR A380 and MYT 744 that sort of thing!

 
FLYtoEGCC
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Sun Mar 07, 2004 4:49 am

"I do not believe the FR pilot would have looked, he was travelling fairly fast..."

Is there a standard taxi speed limit at airports, or does it vary from airport to airport? If Ryanair are continually breaking speed limits to aid fast turnaround times, they are obviously putting cost before safety, and the relevant authorities should fine them to deter them from doing it in the future. Fortunately the actions of the MyTravel pilot prevented a very serious accident. Another time, they might not have been so lucky. Imagine if he'd taxied across a fully-laden A330 or 747 on its takeoff roll - would one of those stopped in the same time as the A321 did? The pilot of an aircraft should be aware of what's going on around him at all times.

I'm not blaming Ryanair totally for this incident, indeed it appears that the controller is responsible - but common sense needs to be applied. Is it really wise to go barging across an active runway without taking so much as a glance, even if you have been cleared?
Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away...
 
mhodgson
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Sun Mar 07, 2004 5:12 am

AFAIK there is a speed limit of 20kts on the ground at airports, and 40 I think on high speed taxiways. However it seems extremely unlikely that FR would adhere to these as I highly doubt MAN will introduce speed cameras.
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FLYtoEGCC
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Sun Mar 07, 2004 5:22 am

"I highly doubt MAN will introduce speed cameras."

Don't be too sure... there's speed cameras on practically every road in this country, it can only be a matter of time before the police discover airports could be rich pickings! Big grin

Seriously though, if an aircraft is taxiing too fast, isn't it the responsibility of ATC or Ground Control to tell the pilot to slow down? If the aircraft was airborne and the pilot broke a speed restriction and consequently caused danger, ATC would tell him to slow down. Do the same rules not apply on the ground?
Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away...
 
FlyingColours
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Sun Mar 07, 2004 5:40 am

In relation to the Speed Cameras - Wait for them to install them and then decide to point them at a runway, airlines would loose millions.

In relation to the incident at hand - It's a damn good job that it was not a PIA 747 in the A321's place, those things are dangerously overloaded and would have never stopped in time.

Phil
FlyingColours

[Edited 2004-03-06 21:47:15]
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
Londoncenter
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Sun Mar 07, 2004 5:59 am

The ryanair pilot may well have looked and not seen the A321, the runway at MAN is nowhere near level, if you stand at one end you wouldn't be able to see a 747 at the other end starting its takeoff roll, not even the top of the tail!! I know because when I worked there, I had the pleasure of this driving around the airfield, that is one big hump! This may explain it to some slight degree, but i'm sure if ryanair were taxiing slower they may have been able to stop sooner, like before the runway!
 
A340600
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Sun Mar 07, 2004 6:01 am

In relation to the Speed Cameras - Wait for them to install them and then decide to point them at a runway, bloody 'ell airlines would loose millions.

LOL, FR would go bust

Sam Laugh out loud
Despite the name I am a Boeing man through and through!
 
FLYtoEGCC
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Sun Mar 07, 2004 6:03 am

Imagine if they put speed cameras at DUB and STN taxiways... FR wouldn't just go bust, they'd be absolutely anniahilated in a matter of hours... Big grin

(Sorry for getting off topic here)
Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away...
 
geoffm
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Sun Mar 07, 2004 6:29 am

LondonCentre - are you sure? Doesn't look very humpy to me, assuming the labels to these pictures are correct.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/510007/M/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/370608/M/

Not to mention the fact that a 747 tail is (guessing) 60-70ft high and you'd thus need about half that height differential in the middle in order to hide a 747 at the end.

Now, *Bristol* is not level at all... http://www.airliners.net/open.file/260098/M/

Geoff M.
 
FlyingColours
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Sun Mar 07, 2004 6:35 am

Geoff - The runway in the first image is 06R/24L not the runway in question. The second image is taken from about half way along 24R/06L, but it does not show the curve because of it being half way along.

Wow Bristol is way off the mark there!

I have never been out there exept on A/C but I know the runway (24R/06L) is actually quite curved around the middle. Even standing at the AVP by 06L you can't see the A/C tails on 24R.

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
geoffm
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Sun Mar 07, 2004 6:46 am

I went through hundreds of pictures to try to find a decent picture of 06L, the best of which I could find is in the 2nd link. Sorry, but I'm afraid I'm still not convinced, being something like 15ft off the ground in a 737 and not being able to see an A321 hurtling towards you! Not saying Ryanair were wrong or anything, I'm just querying the statement about not being able to see even a 747, bearing in mind that the A321 was already on its take-off roll and thus not at the end of the runway but partially along it (apparently).

Geoff M.
 
gkirk
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RE: Near Miss/Collision At Man 29/2/04

Sun Mar 07, 2004 10:11 am

With regards to MAN runway 6L/24R - The bump on that thing is massive  Wow!
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