bistro1200
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United. America's Largest International Carrier

Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:50 pm

Is this true? I am a bit skeptical...
Measure to the millimeter, mark with a crayon, cut with an axe.
 
kbuf737
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RE: United. America's Largest International Carrier

Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:19 pm

Does that include Star Alliance members?
The tower? Rapunzel!!!!!!
 
ssides
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RE: United. America's Largest International Carrier

Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:31 pm

Continental used to claim that it served more international destinations than any other US carrier. Given their large network in the Pacific and their RJ operations in Mexico, plus the 757s they send across the Atlantic, I wouldn't doubt it. However, CO doesn't have the codeshare network that UA has.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: United. America's Largest International Carrier

Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:34 pm

Right down there at the bottom the poster tells you.

"Based on Revenue Passenger Miles as reported to the D.O.T. for the period October 1, 2002 to September 30, 2003."

So yes it's true. In a way.

But like my statistic professor used to say:

Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is interesting, what they conceal is vital.

It all depends on what measurement you want to use. AA or CO or DL could make the same claim probably using a different stat.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
ATL2CDG
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Read The Fine Print...

Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:37 pm

All:

If you read the fine print at the bottom of the advert, it clearly says that it's based upon reported revenue passenger miles over a given period of time. With United flying predominately 777s and 747s internationally, they have more seats floating around and thus more than likely, more passengers.

TysV

[Edited to correct my point.]

[Edited 2004-03-02 16:10:06]
Ignorantia juris neminem excusat.
 
slider
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RE: United. America's Largest International Carrier

Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:43 pm

Yawn- that and a quarter will get you a cup of coffee. Being biggest isn't the point. I remember TWA's Round the World service. Effective? Hardly. Just proved you could do it, but wasn't profitable.

So they have all those RPMs in the market...are they making any money off it? That's the question.

And can anyone explain why UA could start running fire-sales on Atlantic market fares? Now we're all in another race to the bottom in markets that are largely exclusive of law-fare competition.
 
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STT757
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RE: United. America's Largest International Carrier

Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:47 pm

"Based on this, with United's ridiculously higr fares and three-class product (which CO and DL don't have), I can easily see UA making more money internationally"

You do know that UAL is insolvent, large International Network and all.

CO and DL do not have access to Heathrow or local Narita rights, yet still are able to remain solvent even with a two-class product.

CO and DL obviously have it right and UAL has it wrong, obviously.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
flylondon
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RE: United. America's Largest International Carrier

Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:47 pm

ATL2CDG

Revenue passenger miles (or RPMs) have nothing to do with the fares charged. One RPM is defined as transporting one fare-paying passenger one mile. It doesn't matter whether that passenger paid $100 or $5000. All it is saying is that if you add up the number of passenger miles flown by United internationally, they are the number one US carrier.
 
ord
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RE: United. America's Largest International Carrier

Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:03 am

I just threw out last month's Air Transport World, which lists these statistics by airline internationally as a whole and by region (Atlantic, Pacific and Latin America). If I remember correctly, United was a distant #3 in international RPMs, behind AA and DL. But that was for 2003, something like January-September, although I can't imagine United dropped that far in only a few months. When I get the new issue I'll post the stats if this topic is still open.

I know before 9/11 United was clearly #1, but I also know they are not #1 right now - AA is by a wide margin.
 
UA744Flagship
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RE: United. America's Largest International Carrie

Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:06 am

Yes, UA was not #1 last year. But--you can thank SARS for much of that.

2004 will see UA reclaiming top spot in intl RPMs with the announced (and yet to be announced) longhaul flights, and resumption of pre-09/11 transpacific capacity.

How can I deduce this? Well RPMs are directly related to ASMs by load factor. If you look at the LF trends, then look at the ASMs AA, UA, and DL will be offering throughout the year, United will have more ASMs and has lately tended to have a higher load factor.

1 RPM = 1 Revenue paying pax (irrespective of class of service) flown 1 mile
1 ASM = 1 seat flown 1 mile (irrespective of class of service)

Total RPMs/Total ASMs = Load Factor
-equivalent to-
Load Factor * Total ASMs = Total RPMs


[Edited 2004-03-02 16:10:05]
no wire hangers!
 
B4REAL
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RE: United. America's Largest International Carrier

Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:07 am

It is ALL about how you look at the numbers, for example, if you include Continental Express and Micronesia brands, CO has the most international destinations. So yes, a 35-seat RJ flight 3x weekly to some international manufacturing outpost in Mexico counts.

 Smile
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KKMolokai
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RE: United. America's Largest International Carrier

Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:53 am

As we can all see, being "American's Largest International Carrier" hasn't helped United's bottom line any. They're still bankrupt, and still bleeding cash. Route structure isn't changing that.
We are the people of American Airlines. And we know why you fly.
 
UA744KSFO
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RE: United. America's Largest International Carrier

Wed Mar 03, 2004 1:00 am

I think seeing parked 744's moving from VCV back into service tells me all that I need to know.

UA is on the way back!
 
bobnwa
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RE: United. America's Largest International Carrier

Wed Mar 03, 2004 1:12 am

The most current numbers list Jan-Aug 2003 for International Travel (RPK's)

RPK's are generally used as the measurement to compare airlines
1. American----38,010,537
2. United-------34,417,522
3. Northwest---29,663,614
4. Delta--------22,176,036
5. Continental--22,156,768
6. US Airways--10,106,625

By Passengers
1. American
2. Continental
3. United
4. Northwest
5. Delta
6. US Airways

By Freight
1. Fedex
2. UPS
3. Northwest
4. American
5. United
6. Delta
7. Continental
8. US Airways

Figures from Air Transport World
 
mattnrsa
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RE: United. America's Largest International Carrier

Wed Mar 03, 2004 2:26 am

You can't really base comparisons on last year's figures, and UA is not doing that either. They are basing that on their CURRENT schedule. Just one ORD-HKG flt in a 747 equals 15 MIA-Jamaica flts in a 737, yet both are international, so it's easy to see how UA, with its RPM-heavy trans-Pacific flts, can hold the title of most intl RPMs.

American, on the other hand, has a huge number of shorter Latin American/Caribbean flts. While this does not give them many RPMs, it gives them a lot of intl passengers, and the title of biggest US international carrier, passenger-wise.
 
ord
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RE: United. America's Largest International Carrier

Wed Mar 03, 2004 4:11 am

"You can't really base comparisons on last year's figures, and UA is not doing that either. They are basing that on their CURRENT schedule."

This is wrong. If you read the small type in the "ad" you see United is basing their claim on data from October 1, 2002 - September 30, 2003.

"American, on the other hand, has a huge number of shorter Latin American/Caribbean flts. While this does not give them many RPMs, it gives them a lot of intl passengers, and the title of biggest US international carrier, passenger-wise."

This is also wrong. American is number one internationally at the moment in both passengers and RPMs. Check Bobnwa's post above.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: United. America's Largest International Carrier

Wed Mar 03, 2004 7:01 am

(Taken from "Air Transport World," January 2004)

U.S. Major Carriers International Traffic:

Airline Passengers Carried (000)

AA Total 8,613

  • Atlantic 2,138


  • Latin 6,203


  • Pacific 267




  • CO Total 4,480

  • Atlantic 1,519


  • Latin 2,791


  • Pacific 173




  • UA Total 3,872

  • Atlantic 1,622


  • Latin 610


  • Pacific 1,635




  • NW Total 3,814

  • Atlantic 1,372


  • Latin N.M.


  • Pacific 2,437




  • DL Total 3,504

  • Atlantic 1,988


  • Latin 1,436


  • Pacific 74




  • US Total 2,178

  • Atlantic 974


  • Latin 1,201


  • Pacific N.M.




  • AS Total 703

  • Atlantic N.M.


  • Latin 703


  • Pacific N.M.




  • TZ Total 381

  • Atlantic 381


  • Latin N.M.


  • Pacific N.M.




  • HP Total 360

  • Atlantic N.M.


  • Latin 360


  • Pacific N.M.



  • N.M. = not meaningful or no operations whatsoever

    So, UA may be largest in terms of RPMs, but as others have mentioned, it's because they're flying much larger equipment over longer distances. Both AA and CO surpass UA in categories such as number of international destinations, passengers carried, etc.

    "In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

    Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
     
    jsnww81
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    RE: United. America's Largest International Carrier

    Wed Mar 03, 2004 7:23 am

    I'm not sure about the "largest international carrier" moniker... but I REALLY like that ad!

    Very reminiscient of Pan Am/TWA advertising from the early 1960s. Someone in their advertising/marketing department deserves a pat on the back.
     
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    EA CO AS
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    RE: United. America's Largest International Carrier

    Wed Mar 03, 2004 7:36 am

    Mattnrsa-

    They are basing that on their CURRENT schedule.

    Again, no they're not.

    If you read the fine print, you'll see it says "Based on Revenue Passenger Miles as reported to the D.O.T. for the period October 1, 2002 to September 30, 2003."

    It has nothing to do with their current schedule.

    "In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

    Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
     
    mattnrsa
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    RE: United. America's Largest International Carrier

    Wed Mar 03, 2004 10:23 am

    OK...my bad. I guess using the rolling 12-month period starting in Oct 2002 gives them enough of a non-SARS schedule to reflect their huge number of intl RPMs. With all the new and reinstated intl flying coming online this year (most of them RPM-rich trans-Pacific flts), they should be able to use any 12-month period they want.
     
    ContinentalEWR
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    RE: United. America's Largest International Carrier

    Wed Mar 03, 2004 10:34 am

    In terms of destinations served by its own aircraft, Continental is the largest US international carrier.
     
    COSPN
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    RE: United. America's Largest International Carrier

    Wed Mar 03, 2004 3:30 pm

    Right on EWR...

    Destinations served.....The most Continental...DPS, TLV, MNL, OSL, MAJ, GUM..CTS..These are the far off places people think about for an "international" carrier..not ORD-LHR 10x per Day...
     
    azncsa4qf744er
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    RE: United. America's Largest International Carrier

    Wed Mar 03, 2004 3:41 pm

    Yes, United Airlines is the largest International Carrier. Meaning they have more international flights. With destination to Canada, South America, Mexico, Europe and Asia. This does not include Code-share and STAR ALLIANCE flights. For one thing UA have more flights to Asia with a hub in AA), Japan">NRT.

    American Airlines is the world largest airlines in term of A/C, but not in routes operated by AA.

    I am not sure about Continental Airlines having more international routes. For one thing they have a much smaller fleet than of UA, AA, DL, and NW. Unless they including Continental MicroAsia, and Copa.
     
    COSPN
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    RE: United. America's Largest International Carrier

    Wed Mar 03, 2004 5:01 pm

    Just Continental/ Express/ AirMike/ not Copa or Codeshare...Most Cities Served, not the most PAX Miles..No Doubt BA,UA,AA Are bigger just saying CO serves more cities than any other US Carrier..???? Or Just from EWR ???
     
    Thrust
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    RE: United. America's Largest International Carrier

    Wed Mar 03, 2004 5:26 pm

    DL is clearly the smallest international carrier of the Big Five in the U.S., the other four of course being AA, UA, CO, NW. Clearly, UA and CO serve the most cities internationally of all the U.S. carriers. AA may be the third largest, followed by NW, and DL. DL has such a small presence in Asia, only one daily ATL-AA), Japan">NRT, right? AA serves Japan from three cities, and UA from at least four or five. The two biggest presences in Asia are probably UA and NW...for the U.S. carriers. Continental would be third, followed by AA, and then followed by Delta...assuming U.S. Airways doesn't serve Asia, that of which I am clueless. In Europe, it is hard for me to begin to fathom which presence measures up to which. UA, AA, CO, and DL clearly are the four largest presences of the U.S. carriers in Europe, and NW is obviously the smallest...besides AMS, they are not nearly as great as UA, AA, DL, or CO at FRA. I guess from this reasoning, it is really hard for me to say which is the largest international carrier. Are we talking about things in terms of how global they are, flight frequencies? The only thing we can conclude is that these five giants are all valuable assets to us, and five enormous carriers such as that for just one country are an advantage that the U.S. should cherish, as we get a lot of choices on which airline we can fly to a certain city. To see even one of these airlines go would be a tragedy. May all five live on for eternity!
    Fly one thing; Fly it well
     
    slider
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    RE: United. America's Largest International Carrier

    Wed Mar 03, 2004 10:56 pm

    Kudos to UA's marketing wonks for twisting untimely stats!

    Hey, if it puts a couple bucks in the pot and makes you sleep at night, more power to you. Again, United suffers from size envy...they're obsessed with being the BIGGEST, and darn near apoplectic about AA being the biggest carrier in the world.

    Well, if that's what being big gets you, you can have it. I'd rather be structurally sound, strategically focused and tactically excellent. Profitable...well, that too will turn last for UAL if it does at all.
     
    Greg
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    RE: United. America's Largest International Carrier

    Thu Mar 04, 2004 2:06 am

    I think the fact thier primary lenders (and those of US) are now looking at how many pennies on the dollar they will receive when they dissolve assets is probably the best (if not condemning) evidence.

    It would appear that most banks do not give UA or US the thumbs up on solving their issues and are scrambling for whatever they can get on the liquidated assets.
     
    ual777contrail
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    RE: United. America's Largest International Carrier

    Thu Mar 04, 2004 2:28 am

    Slider,
    You think AA is structurally sound? You may want to rethink that little theory.

    Both AA and UA have played teeter totter with the world biggest, but in terms of route structure I think you know who the best is. UAL May be in bankruptcy and AA isn't YET, but remember one thing you can be a negative on this forum because you don't like UAl, that's fine, but UAL will emerge from BK and emerge with a vengeance.

    UAL 777 CONTRAIL
     
    mikeymike
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    RE: United. America's Largest International Carrier

    Thu Mar 04, 2004 6:34 am

    Trans-Atlantic Destinations Served (one way flights)

    DL-21 Destinations served from 3 US Gateways - 40 daily flights
    CO-19 Destinations served from 3 US Gateways - 29 daily flights
    US-11 Destinations served from 3 US Gateways - 16 daily flights
    AA-10 Destinations served from 7 US Gateways - 39 daily flights
    UA-7 Destinations served from 5 US Gateways - 25 daily flights
    NW-5 Destinations served from 5 US Gateways - 15 daily flights

    AA serves relatively few destinations from many departure points while DL serves many destinations from few departure points. Differences in atlantic business models.