keno
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SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Wed Mar 03, 2004 10:49 pm

I know Skyteam lacks partner airlines in many parts of the world but I just want to concentrate on flights between USA & Australia/New Zealand. If you do a SkyTeam timetable search for these sort of flights, you'd have to change flight in Korea. Obviously this is not very practical as you could simply fly southwards from LAX to Auckland/Sydney. AF already flies between LAX and Papeete (Tahiti), but there are no connection from PPT to Auckland/Sydney. The problem is that both QF and NZ are already taken. Now SkyTeam has a choice between Air Pacific (Fiji) & Air Tahiti Nui.

These are the current network for both airlines:

AIR TAHITI NUI

CDG - LAX - PPT
6x a week
using 744 or 343

LAX - Auckland via PPT
3x a week
(1X a week with no change of aircraft in PPT)
using 343

LAX - Sydney via Auckland & PPT
3x a week
(Auckland - Sydney leg is a codeshare operated by QF)
using 343 & 763

TN also flies to Tokyo & Osaka. They have their own FF programme and is not affiliated with other carriers except AA. AA members can only redeem TN flights, no points earned.


AIR PACIFIC

LAX - SYD, via NAN
4x a week
using 744

LAX - Auckland, via NAN
3x a week
using 744 & 763

YVR - HNL - Sydney via NAN
2x a week
using 738 & 744

FJ also flies to Tokyo, BNE, MEL, APW, TBU, HIR & VLI. They also have codeshared flights to CHC & WLG out of Auckland. FJ don't have their own FF programme but QF & AA loyalty programme members can earn and redeem points on FJ flights (sounds as though FJ is an unofficial member of Oneworld). Many flights to SYD, BNE & MEL are codeshared with QF but operated by FJ.


In terms of connectivity between Australia/NZ and LAX, plus the choice of aircrafts, I think Air Pacific is a better choice. However, I don't see FJ willing to face the wrath of QF by joining SkyTeam which might jeopardise the strong coorperation between the two airlines. Unless by joining SkyTeam, FJ is still able to keep their agreement with QF. Air Tahiti Nui is less dependent on QF but their flights to Auckland/Sydney are still codeshared with them. I'm not sure if Air France has any stake in TN, if that's the case it would simplify things alot. Polynesian Airlines has a good network in the region but only flies to HNL. Views anyone?

[Edited 2004-03-03 14:54:17]
 
keno
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Wed Mar 03, 2004 10:56 pm

Sorry I forgot to add...

Maybe DL, CO or NW should start flying to Sydney and/or Auckland. And I'm not talking about CO Micronesia's GUM-CNS.
 
Jano
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Wed Mar 03, 2004 11:11 pm

How about SkyTeam and Malaysia Airlines marriage:D

Just thinking out loud, because NWA is already partners with Malaysia Airlines.
The Widget Air Line :)
 
flylondon
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Wed Mar 03, 2004 11:20 pm

Air Pacific is practically a member of Oneworld given that it is 46% owned by Qantas. Often Oneworld RTW tickets can include segments on FJ. Skyteam doesn't stand a chance in hell if the current situation remains the same.
 
gigneil
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Wed Mar 03, 2004 11:23 pm

Bite your tongue. Korean provides comfortable service to Australia for all Skyteam members.  Big thumbs up

N
 
keno
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Wed Mar 03, 2004 11:37 pm

If you do a search in KLM/NWA website you'd get the connection from DTW or EWR to SYD as EWR-AMS-KUL-SYD, using Malaysia Airlines for the final leg. It takes 35 hours, so this is hardly the best choice. The best connection from anywhere in the US to Australia is still via LAX, e.g. EWR-LAX-SYD is only 22 hours. Flying with KE on JFK-ICN-SYD takes 28 hours. Using TN on LAX-SYD, plus the connecting flight from JFK would take approximately 25 hours.

If MH somehow joins SkyTeam, it would greatly improve the connectivity from Europe but doesn't seem to make much difference from America. Both MH & KE flies to SYD, BNE & AKL, but MH also serves PER, ADL & MEL. Few hours extra flying time from New York to SYD via ICN instead of LAX is probably not a big deal, but it would be nice to complete the jigsaw by adding a direct link between LAX and SYD - as we see in Star and Oneworld.

[Edited 2004-03-03 15:50:28]
 
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jetjack74
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Wed Mar 03, 2004 11:50 pm

Once the merging of the SkyTeam alliance is completed, this is most likely the one market most likely to be addressed. It's the only real gap that directly impacts the North American continent. One of the reasons NW pulled out of the Australian market because of a lack of feed for these flights. Now that that we have AS and DL as part of our alliance, the market may return soon. I can't imagine that with the work that has gone into putting this alliance together, that they would leave this market to chance now that there is some muscle behind it.
Made from jets!
 
EddieDude
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Thu Mar 04, 2004 1:26 am

The way things are now, would it be possible for KE to establish a second international hub in Southeast Asia to which it could fly from LAX with 5th freedom rights? That would be an interesting solution I think.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
caetravlr
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Thu Mar 04, 2004 1:31 am

The lack of service to Australia is actually why I quit flying Delta and started flying United Express on my last long term consulting job. I missed connecting in Atlanta, and flying mainline jets out of CAE, but it paid off in being able to access the entire Star network with my FF miles, and resulted in a much more amazing vacation last year. Star is by far a more complete alliance. Hopefully Skyteam will catch up before too long.

CAETravlr
A woman drove me to drink and I didn't have the decency to thank her. - W.C. Fields
 
Airbus Lover
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Thu Mar 04, 2004 3:06 am

EddieDude,

IMHO, no country in South East Asia would grant them the right to do that.. or at least never to the extent of intercontinental... (nevermind the BKK-SIN;SIN-CGK;KUL-SIN short sectors 5th freedom given to airline from a 3rd country). I do understand that Royal Brunei flies to Europe via BKK so does BR and CI, and Garuda via SIN to EU (in the process of switching over to KUL).

E.g. ex KUL, they won't be granted the right to LAX. They provide rather good connection now, and they can't go non-stop, so what's the point?

It doesn't work. They will just focus at their hub at ICN! It won't benefit KE too much anyways... Recruiting the likes of MH as a Skyteam member would be much better provided MH decides in joining.
 
EddieDude
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Thu Mar 04, 2004 6:22 am

Thanks a lot for your response Airbus Lover. I guess then that maybe MH is indeed a good fit for SkyTeam, but I think they will play hard to catch.

We used to have MH in MEX and MH had 5th freedom rights MEX-LAX. They left MEX when those rights were revoked. It would be awesome to have MH back some day.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
Bicoastal
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Thu Mar 04, 2004 7:07 am

I know nothing about Northwest and whatever alliance it's in. I fly only United and Star Alliance. However, from my armchair, it seems it would make sense for Northwest to start routes to Australia. They already have a good Pacific network and excellent USA/Canada feed. Though I don't believe there are any uncommitted Aussie airlines to align with, a little marketing in Sydney and Melbourne might earn them enough Aussie passengers and cargo to make it worthwhile. Northwest from the USA west coast, KLM from Europe and they could meet in Sydney.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
azncsa4qf744er
Posts: 328
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Thu Mar 04, 2004 7:15 am

Correction, Qantas own 51% of Air Pacific. Most of their captain are Australian.
I don't think Delta would ever begin service to the south pacific. The route is too expensive. They also don't the equipment for the route. The Boeing 777-200ER can only go as far as Auckland. But that's also on weight restriction. Why you think UA pulled out of AKL? They used to operated that route using B777-200ER equipment. Also, there are too many competitor for that market. Delta wouldn't stand a chance for that market.
 
yul332LX
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Thu Mar 04, 2004 7:58 am

Actually, the 772ER can easily do LAX-SYD if it have the right MTOW.
If they wanted, CO could operate on this route non-stop with their 777s

As for NW, they did LAX-SYD, LAX-HNL-SYD, JFK-OSA-SYD in the early 90’s but could not make it successful.
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
azncsa4qf744er
Posts: 328
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 4:04 pm

RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Thu Mar 04, 2004 7:33 pm

There is no way a Boeing 777-200ER can fly non stop from Los Angeles to Sydney. It can barely fly non stop between Los Angeles and Auckland. You can ask Boeing yourself and they'll tell you.....
 
gigneil
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Fri Mar 05, 2004 1:38 am

SYD-LAX no problem with the max MTOW option on a 772ER.

N
 
gte439u
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:11 am

The 772ER makes EWR-HKG year round which is 7,009 nm where as LAX-SYD is only 6,507 nm. Therefore, DL or CO could easily operate to Australia.

When DL, CO, and NW are all in SkyTeam, a daily flight to Australia at least could be profitable with feed from all three carriers.
 
keno
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Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:46 pm

RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:20 am

If the Australian flight is fed from CO, NW & DL, what would be the ideal launching point?
LAX? IAH? ATL?
 
gte439u
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:25 am

IAH-AKL-SYD is certainly within the range of the 772, however there would be ETOPS concerns with the most direct routing.

Since LAX or SFO are both cities that receive many flights from the SkyTeam hubs, those two cities might make the most sense.
 
toltommy
Posts: 2496
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:04 am

RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:47 am

I wouldn't originate the service from LAX or SFO. If it were me, I'd be trying to connect those pax further east to avoid the direct competition at SFO and LAX. AC has been using a 763 on a YVR-HNL-SYD routing. Why not a NW 744 on a DTW-HNL-SYD routing? I don't believe NW operates daily DTW-HNL service year round. This could make if feasible. You've got the feed that all 3 carriers could provide at DTW, and local traffic rights on the HNL-SYD segment (Can AC carry local traffic HNL-SYD?). CO has a FF partnership with QF, that should be ended in order to give an incentive to use the new codeshare service. Of the 3 carriers, I think NW or CO would be best to provide the new service because of name recognition. But using IAH would add too much time to most routings, where a DTW connect and HNL stop would likely result in a shorter travel time. Especially when you compare it to a domestic connection followed by a change of carriers at LAX. Just a thought.....
 
FoxBravo
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Fri Mar 05, 2004 4:48 am

I would like to see CO extend its EWR-HNL flight to SYD and its LAX-HNL flight to AKL or MEL, with both arriving in HNL around the same time (say, early afternoon), allowing for connections between the flights and also to/from the IAH-HNL-GUM flight. Easily doable with 767s or, if demand warrants, could be upgraded to 777s. Toss in connections from MSP, SEA and maybe DTW on NW, and from ATL, CVG, SLC and LAX on DL, and there should be more than enough connecting traffic to make it work. Besides, HNL seems to have plenty of terminal space and is an uncongested airport, not to mention a very pleasant stopover option. If successful, the HNL mini-hub could then be expanded to include other destinations like BNE, CNS, etc.

Probably not going to happen anytime soon, but hey CO management, are you reading this?  Smile
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Fri Mar 05, 2004 4:59 am

Hmm, while you're on the subject of daydreaming: why doesnt CO just order the 772LR for nonstop IAH-SYD  Big thumbs up


....sigh, maybe someday.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
azncsa4qf744er
Posts: 328
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Fri Mar 05, 2004 5:21 am

LAX-SYD is actually 8120nm (or something closer to that figures)
Flight time is actually 13.5hrs to 14.5hrs depending on winds.
The return flight SYD-LAX is mostly 12hrs long but sometime can be up to 13hrs. I don't think B772ER would make the non-stop.

If NW was to start its routes to SYD from HNL, then they are up against Air Canada A340-300X Daily, Hawaiian B763ER , and Qantas B743. I don't see a point for NW to start that route or service since many carriers have once had the service down under but pulled out. Pan Am, American, and Continental. All these carriers pulled out because the route was too expensive and not profitable. I doubt any US carriers would start Sydney or Auckland service anytime soon. (UA have daily services from LAX and SFO, HA will have service from June)
Also, NZ would be operating out of SFO as of May or June this year...
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Fri Mar 05, 2004 5:28 am

LAX-SYD is actually 8120nm

Where on Earth do you get that from...?

The G.C. distance is 6507nm, and the Still Air sure as heck doesnt add 1600nm+
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
fxra
Posts: 600
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 1999 1:03 am

RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Fri Mar 05, 2004 6:25 am

OK, i don;t work in schedules or revenue management but how about this...

Delta runs an ATL-HNL and CVG-HNL nonstop, CO runs EWR-HNL and IAH-HNL nonstop, lets have NW run DTW-HNL and MSP-HNL plus its normal LAX-HNL leg it runs already.

Have pax change planes in HNL and let NW run a 744 one down to SYD and(or) MEL. The combination of the 3 carriers inflows from the east coast should more than make the route profitable right? ANd if I'm coming from the East coast, i wouldn't mind being able to walk aound for a few minutes somewhere before getting back on the cattle car.

This could also potentially help increase the normally low (ie frequent fliers redeeming ponts) yeilds on the long runs to HNL from the eastern half of the country. Or possibly, have CO run a 777 down on normally lighter days and alternate with the NW 744. I would suggest DL do a 777 down but since CO and NW have historical authorities to Oz, this makes them more likely a candidate.

IN a way make HNL a sort of hub for the 3 to funnel pax through. JUst an idea...
Visualize Whirled Peas
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Fri Mar 05, 2004 6:45 am

Delta runs an ATL-HNL and CVG-HNL nonstop

DL runs ATL/CVG/SLC/LAX/SFO - HNL



and MSP-HNL plus its normal LAX-HNL leg it runs already

NW runs DTW/MSP/SEA/NRT - HNL

LAX is currently suspended, but will resume.

Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
FoxBravo
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Fri Mar 05, 2004 6:47 am

Fxra, read my reply #20...  Smile
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
fxra
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Fri Mar 05, 2004 6:56 am

my bad, thats what happens when you don't do the research (apologies Concorde) and don't read all the posts... (Apologies FB)

I'll pour myself another martini and get away from the message board.

Still i think it could work. ANd i'd rathr DL run the HNL-SYD legs, since i can get passes on them. Later

JD
Visualize Whirled Peas
 
Sydscott
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Fri Mar 05, 2004 7:02 am


"Pan Am, American, and Continental"

Well Pan Am pioneered the non-stop flights to Australia using 747Sp's and operated right up until its Pacific division was bought out by UAL. Hardly a failure.

American codeshares with QF which is a far better arrangement for them. Why have 1 777 flight a day when you can drop your passengers at LAX and connect them to 3 dailies to Sydney, 1 to Melbourne and soon services to Brisbane???

Continental withdrew.

Northwest wont be returning to Australia unless they can fly via Japan. The reason their last Aussie service didn't work was because they were breaching their conditions for flying to Australia via Japan. Basically they had to have a specified percentage of passengers that originated in America aboard when they arrived in Sydney. Usually they didn't so the government kicked up a stink about it and NWA withdrew. Besides which you dont have to fly via Japan to get to Australia anymore. If you cant fill a 747 then there are A340's and 777LR's that can do the job.

As for which carrier Skyteam should nab the answer is simple.........SQ!!!!!! If they can get SQ from Star then they secure the 2nd largest uplifter of International passengers out of Australia. (After Qantas) It also adds Southeast Asias best airline to the network and a major hub in Changi. If they can capture the passengers that fly SQ for NWA/Co/Delta services out of Australia then they will be successful.
 
yul332LX
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Fri Mar 05, 2004 7:42 am

No way NW will serve SYD again via Japan.

They tried 12 years ago and broke their teeth. I'm sure that on their priority list of new destinations ranging from 1 to 100, Australia is number 101!

As for a non-stop LAX/SFO-SYD, it makes no sense for NW to get A340s or 777s just for that route... So CO would be a much better candidate but CO has no planes available now and if they do get a few more 777s, their priority will be non-stop flights between EWR and Asia.
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
Sydscott
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Fri Mar 05, 2004 9:20 am


YUL332LX - Yes but the reason they broke their teeth was because the Australian Government enforced the Air Traffic Agreement and NWA breached it. Take away the restriction and NWA has a big market in Japan and could easily fill a daily 747 Japan-Sydney/Brisbane flight. Add in Delta and Continental feed from the US and you have a winner.

If 3 large US airlines combined can't fill a daily 747-400 LAX-SYD nad make money off of it then they should have a good look at themselves because there is something very wrong!!!!!
 
yul332LX
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Fri Mar 05, 2004 9:52 am

Yes but the reason they broke their teeth was because the Australian Government enforced the Air Traffic Agreement and NWA breached it

Yep, NW was allowed to transport O&D traffic for up to only 50% of its total capacity between OSA and SYD. The problem was that NW never got decent loads on the other 50% (coming from US and Canada) even with fares well under those charged by United or Qantas between USA-Australia. Adding a feed from CO and DL doesn’t change much to the EWR/ATL/MSP/DTWKIX-SYD if it takes 5 hours more than the usual connection at LAX/SFO!

If you take away that restriction, that might be another story but there is no reason for Australia and Japan to change their position now.
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
keno
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Fri Mar 05, 2004 11:51 am

Does anyone care to venture the possibility of Air Tahiti Nui in SkyTeam? They could provide LAX-PPT-AKL themselves and complete Air France's CDG-LAX-PPT service until AKL.
 
nickofatlanta
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Fri Mar 05, 2004 12:50 pm

How about Hawaiian Airlines? They are partners with NW and CO and about to start HNL-SYD.
 
keno
Posts: 1809
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Fri Mar 05, 2004 1:14 pm

It's just a pity that there's no link between PPT & AKL because this would make a very attractive RTW ticket. Star Alliance is served by NZ while Oneworld uses TN (with QF flight number).

Probably TN should end the codeshare with QF and either join or cooperate with SkyTeam, while QF can forge an alliance with PH. Similar to FJ, PH doesn't have their own FF programme but uses QF's instead. I know PH used to serve PPT-AKL until recently (also codeshared with QF) but somehow it doesn't appear on Amadeus anymore.

[Edited 2004-03-05 05:30:38]
 
Alitalia7e7
Posts: 184
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Fri Mar 05, 2004 3:41 pm

Does anyone know why Continental withdrew from Australia? What year did they commence flying to Sydney, I truely miss seeing some of their old 747's here.

Sydney has lost so many airlines.
 
klmcedric
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RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Fri Mar 05, 2004 8:07 pm

Where do I sign for KLM starting operations to SYD out of LAX
I wouldn`t mind that!!!
 
keno
Posts: 1809
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:46 pm

RE: SkyTeam's Missing Link Between US & Australia

Sat Mar 06, 2004 11:30 pm

How realistic is it to have Hawaiian Airlines in Skyteam? Since we'd soon have 3 major american carriers in the alliance, would there be a problem with anti-trust law if they were to add another one?