Flying-Tiger
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Lufthansa/Condor Fleet Rumour

Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:58 pm

Rumour is, that Lufthansa is currently heavily interested in replacing the Avro RJ85s with Fokker F100s. In addition they are seen as one potential - if not the launch customer - for the Fokker F70/100NG (pending launch, however this attempt looks quite serious), as these aircraft would mostly fit their RJ requirements.

Condor/Thomas Cook is apparently in the market and is looking for B737/757 and/or A320/321 for this summer season.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
StarFlyer
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RE: Lufthansa/Condor Fleet Rumour

Fri Mar 05, 2004 4:21 pm

From the passengers point of view these Avro's are a slow, cramped pain in the arse. I will be glad when they are gone.
But what does this mean for the FD728 project? Is that even still going ahead?
Yours truly - StarFlyer
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: Lufthansa/Condor Fleet Rumour

Fri Mar 05, 2004 4:45 pm

Wow, all the sudden F-100s are hot stuff. First JetsGo, then Austrian, now Lufty? Unless they have specific reasons for the RJ-85 (short field performance) that can't be met by the F-100, it does make a hell of a lot of sense. I guess airlines are only becoming interested now with AA removing them from their fleet.
 
beechcraft
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RE: Lufthansa/Condor Fleet Rumour

Fri Mar 05, 2004 4:57 pm

Ah, never heard that rumour. Interesting.
Nice to see something else going on instead of the other: we´ll get Embraer, 717, 318 or CRJ 900 rumours.
Personally i don´t think this is going to happen.
I mean i´d like to see the Avros and the old CRJ100 go, but this won´t happen for a while as some people in management said.
Anyway, how did you hear of this, Flying-Tiger?

Denis
That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college!
 
pilatusguy
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RE: Lufthansa/Condor Fleet Rumour

Fri Mar 05, 2004 5:45 pm

Which a/c would LH use to serve LCY?

Interesting anyway... I love the F100's!
 
Setjet
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RE: Lufthansa/Condor Fleet Rumour

Fri Mar 05, 2004 5:47 pm

Seems very strange considering the "Rekkof" would need at least two to three years to start producion of the Fokker 100 again.

How about another rumor:
When will "Thomas Koch" finally be Condor again?
 
StarFlyer
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RE: Lufthansa/Condor Fleet Rumour

Fri Mar 05, 2004 5:47 pm

To London/City maybe props? Or keep a couple of Avros for FRA/MUC-LCY?

When they first got the Avro they put out a brochure saying they got it to fly into airports with short runways such as Florence and Kiev. But these are now served by all sorts of aircraft, right?
Yours truly - StarFlyer
 
Horus
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RE: Lufthansa/Condor Fleet Rumour

Fri Mar 05, 2004 6:01 pm

Are Condor going to replace their ageing 767s with A330s any time soon?
EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
maxmax
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RE: Lufthansa/Condor Fleet Rumour

Fri Mar 05, 2004 6:07 pm

Flying tiger,
interesting news.
do you have any ideas of who they are dealing with for the Fokker 100s?
I was looking it up on your website but no info

Rgrds

Max
 
TriStar500
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RE: Lufthansa/Condor Fleet Rumour

Fri Mar 05, 2004 6:23 pm

Horus,

The 767 will remain in the fleet for the foreseeable future.
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
Andreas
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RE: Lufthansa/Condor Fleet Rumour

Fri Mar 05, 2004 6:31 pm

Funny, that's the first time I hear LH in connection with the re-birth of Fokker, but the comeback of Fokker is right now already a bit more than just a rumour, it's on the way!
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
trident2e
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RE: Lufthansa/Condor Fleet Rumour

Fri Mar 05, 2004 7:13 pm

Getting rid of the Avros sounds like a great idea. If there is one aeroplane that should never have been made (from the passenger's perspective) this is it!
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: Lufthansa/Condor Fleet Rumour

Fri Mar 05, 2004 8:51 pm

Well,

as I mentioned in earlier posts on the return of the Fokker 70/100, the project is in a very advanced state. Expect the official "go" around mid 2004, or maybe at Farnbourough.

Lufthansa was a potential buyer when the Fokker 70/100 were still in production, so who knows, maybe Rekkof will get them a good deal. It would be a good start for the new series of Fokkers, such a big name as Lufthansa as launch customer!

Time will tell, but I keep my fingers crossed!

Cheers!

LifelinerOne
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
keesje
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RE: Lufthansa/Condor Fleet Rumour

Fri Mar 05, 2004 9:10 pm

From what I understand the F70 is a very good aircraft.

The new F100 would incorporate all improvements introduced on the F70.

Is there any source ?

Perhaps LH would demand new CF34 engines, winglets hmmm






"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Flying-Tiger
Topic Author
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RE: Lufthansa/Condor Fleet Rumour

Fri Mar 05, 2004 9:24 pm

Obviously I cannot name my source/sources - as usual.

Don´t forget that the original decision at Lufthansa was between the ARJ85 and the Fokker F70 - LH had choosen the F70 from the Pax´s comfort point, however BAE Systems came with a much better deal financially which made it more attractive for LH to go with the ARJs. That´s at least the version I know.

IMO the F70/100NG only have a chance if they get a major facelifting in form of winglets (i.e. the Sharklets which were designed for the 928JET), new engines (I guess the BR710/715 would be the most likely contenders as they are RR products) and a whole cabine update.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: Lufthansa/Condor Fleet Rumour

Fri Mar 05, 2004 9:38 pm

There is an source at the site of Rekkof, summing up all the new things the Fokker 100 will have. Also, there will be new engines, avionics etc installed on both types.

They estimate that when they decide to go on with it, production can start within 1,5-2 years.

LifelinerOne
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
codeshare
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RE: Lufthansa/Condor Fleet Rumour

Fri Mar 05, 2004 10:31 pm

LH could look at the EMB170 and bigger models. They should be certified for LCY also.

LOT is getting them, so as LH's Star partner they will certainly know how it is performing.
How much A is there is Airliners Net ? 0 or nothing ?
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: Lufthansa/Condor Fleet Rumour

Fri Mar 05, 2004 10:43 pm

I somewhat doubt that the EMBs will be the choosen ones in this contest. LH is not too fond about them as far as I can hear, and the only version which will be crtified for LCY will be the EMB170, even though only with some modifications, adding 400kg to the OEW. Not the best selling point on rather short European hops.

In addition the Embraers don´t have a really large cargo space to offer, the Fokkers are a bit better, which might be a selling point as Lufthansa Cargo is still one of the largest Cargo carriers in the World, and is currently trying to regain some market share, especially in and ex Germany/Europe (the current B747-400F rumours for LH Cargo point into this direction as well). Belly-capacity could be important in this case.

I really doubt that we will see one Star order - OS has effectively dropped out of the tender as they have decided in favour of the Fokker F70/100 and Dash 8-Q400 for their 70/100-seat needs, and LH will go CRJ700 and F100 for their requirement IMO. Spanair will be somewhere in the middle, I would guess mostly Fokker F100. At a later stage all "old" F70/100 would be replaced with brand-new Fokker F70/100NG. IMO quite a likely szenario, especially as most delivery slots for the Embraers have been booked in the coming years.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
keesje
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RE: Lufthansa/Condor Fleet Rumour

Fri Mar 05, 2004 11:58 pm

I haven't found any positive signal from LH on this,

is there a link ?
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Greg
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RE: Lufthansa/Condor Fleet Rumour

Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:05 am

I thought there delay until Q4 was mostly due to seeing if the FD728 was going ahead. It appears it will be a Chinese/German/Korean effort--with the money coming from China..the Tax breaks from German...and the major subcontracting to both China and Korea.

I realize much still needs to be done.

I think Berlin will be an interesting place in May!
 
AA737-823
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RE: Lufthansa/Condor Fleet Rumour

Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:43 am

Honestly, if Boeing can't sell 717s, and the 318 isn't exactly popular, either... what makes Fokker think they can move 100NGs? The operating costs can't be as low as the E190 or CRJ900 or whatever else...
So what gives?
R
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: Lufthansa/Condor Fleet Rumour

Sat Mar 06, 2004 4:48 pm

@ Keesje: I can only say so much that I have this from sources quite close to this subject. Sorry, can´t go into more details here. Don´t expect anything offical from LH - officially the competition is still between the CRJ700/900, Embraers, B717 and the A318, even though the FD728/928 are reviewed since some time, and the Fokkers which have come into this just recently.

@ Greg: This is what I was thinking before I heard this about the Fokkers. However, waiting until 4Q04 has now three advantages:
- to see what is going to happen with the FD728/928
- to see what is going to happen with the F70/100NG restart
- to see the "real" performance of the Embraer 170

In addition you could add that especially Boeing should get quite desperate in its trys to sell the B717 which might be an additionally lowered price. But as you say, both Berlin and Farnborough will be highly interesting this year, and Lufthansa will be one of the centralplayers.

@AA737-823: Fokker has something neither Boeing nor Embraer have - a customer base which is alread flying this type since many years - plus carriers which in the past had these types in the fleet and might reconsider a new version.

Besides the price tag for the Fokkers will be quite a bit lower as the development costs which have to be regained will be way lower than those of the B717 and the Embraer family. Means that they can undercut Airbus, Boeing and Embraer nearly all of the time if necessary. Besides they offer a growth plattform with the Fokker F100 and a shrink plattform with the Fokker F70, at least the Fokker F130 as a 130-seater had already been planned and was only shelvedbecause of DASA´s particiation in Fokker and the higher anticipated sales volumes of the A319.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
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Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: Lufthansa/Condor Fleet Rumour

Sat Mar 06, 2004 9:43 pm

Goodday!

After the Lufthansa-rumours from yesterday, I talked to family of mine involved in the Rekkof-project.

When trying to restart the production, Lufthansa was always kept in the loop of the progress by Rekkof, as they were very much interested in the Fokker 70 in the early 1990's.

Ofcourse, I cannot go into details, but there are some other big airlines in the loop. Some of these airlines might consider interim Fokker 100's in the coming two years.

Rekkof is working very sneaky and quietly and will only bring the news out when everything is in place.

The new Fokker 70 and 100 have years of experience on the job, and therefore there will be no startup mishaps which are usual at completely new planes.

http://www.rekkof.nl is the website of the project and is recently updated. It could use a more professional image though.

I will keep you informed!
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Lufthansa/Condor Fleet Rumour

Sat Mar 06, 2004 9:46 pm

"[Avros are a] cramped pain in the arse."

Don't agree with that at all. I've flown on a few of them (and 146s), all of which offering good legroom for a 6' person.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Flying-Tiger
Topic Author
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RE: Lufthansa/Condor Fleet Rumour

Sun Mar 07, 2004 4:10 pm

LifelinerOne, could you please contact me under tiger-star@gmx.de?

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
GDB
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RE: Lufthansa/Condor Fleet Rumour

Sun Mar 07, 2004 4:56 pm

The numbers of people on here who slag off the 146/ARJ without realizing that it was designed to do a specialized job very well.
In the 70's it was thought that city centre airports would happen, for very quiet STOL jets that the market would eventually support after aircraft like the Dash 7 paved the way.
That it stayed in production for 20 years without city centre airports ever become common, proved the soundness of the aircraft.
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: Lufthansa/Condor Fleet Rumour

Sun Mar 07, 2004 9:04 pm

Flying-Tiger,

you've got mail!
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
voodoo
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RE: Lufthansa/Condor Fleet Rumour

Mon Mar 08, 2004 12:55 am

Since the subject has been mentioned above:
Just a note to recall that Swiss ordered its EMB-170s with a special ventral air brake to handle LCY. i.e. the 170 is not certified for LCY in its `off-the-shelf version.
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '