GLAGAZ
Topic Author
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Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:18 am

Did a quick search and couldn't find any past topics on this....

I saw a programme on Discovery Wings last night about air disasters caused by language problems. I always thought that English was the necessary language in all countries but on this programme there was a runway collision because ATC were speaking in French to the French pilots, this meant that the 2 English pilots could not understand the instructions given to other aircraft which resulted in the accident.

CDG apparently still use French to talk to the French pilots, I would think this to be incredibly dangerous. Any pilots that fly into CDG have any thoughts?
Neutrality means that u don't really care cos the struggle goes on even when ur not there, blind and unaware
 
Leskova
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:26 am

I'm no pilot, but I still think it's not really wise for countries to not use english as language for ATC communications - it is the standard, however much you might like (or prefer) your own language.

I'm not sure if it's still the case, but I know that in Spain pilots and controllers used to talk to each other in spanish not so long ago - so I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few more countries that do this as well...

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:36 am

I'm an ATC in the Montreal Area Control Center, and we use both english and french here also, and let me tell you that in no way does this compromise the spacing between planes, whether it be at 30'000ft in the air or on short final for the rwy.

The english speaking pilots dont even need to understand the instructions given to the french speaking pilots. The ATC is the only one who has the picture of his airspace, and that is sufficient enough to provide the proper spacing.

Believe it or not, even in airspaces where the ATC is only in english (i.e all of North America, except the Montreal FIR), the pilots dont always have the picture of what is going on around them! and that is perfectly normal, they are busy enough flying their plane as it is!

Here is another example: Over the Atlantic, during the crossings, all pilots turn off their radios, because of the incessant background noise of the HF frequencies that are used as principle source of communication with the ATC!
If the ATC needs to talk to them, they use what is called a SELCAL device, with transmits certain tones of sound in reference to a single plane. This is how the pilots know that the ATC wants to talk to them. So wheter the pilot has the picture or not around him is completely irrelevant!

Hope this helps!

AK
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
DC9
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:37 am

My father used to be a DC9 pilot for SAS and he often commented on this problem even if his aviation french was more than adequate. I know NCE still uses english to communicate to francophones with.

 
AOMlover
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:50 am

French is an official ICAO language, along with English and I believe Russian and Spanish. So they had the right to speak French.
Edit; there are 6 ICAO languages: English, Spanish, French, Russian, Arabic and Chinese.

[Edited 2004-03-09 18:52:07]
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:11 am

"French is an official ICAO language, along with English and I believe Russian and Spanish. So they had the right to speak French.
"

Wonderful. Now one person is dead. Expect more. It is absolutely reprehensible that this is allowed at a major international airport like CDG, where those that speak French may very well be in the minority or slim majority. This is hubris and typical French union behavior at its worst and I place that man's death fully on the pilot's union.

[Edited 2004-03-09 19:19:06]
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Guest

RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:33 am

Friends -
xxx
Although I am multilingual, speak Spanish and French fluently, I agree that English should be used in any communications, but it is NOT the way it is in many, and many, and many countries.
xxx
ICAO language or not is not the point. The point is that understanding all and everything being said is important. I often use Spanish in South America, and a mix of Spanish/Portuguese in Brazil airspace, but if I hear an airplane from North America, Europe or Asia on the frequency, I revert to English so they can get the benefit of our communications.
xxx
I avoided a potential accident in France, when an Air Inter was given holding instructions (in French) at 3,000 feet, while I was there at 3,000 feet as well. It was an ATC mistake. By chance I understood. Gave a warning in French to that plane and ATC.
xxx
Using the local language expedites communications, and is a problem for the "English only" pilots. I have flown in Russia, and Greece, where I have NO idea about what is being said... Parakalo... Dobry Dyen... not easy.
xxx
Pilots who are (normally) assigned to South America SHOULD learn some basics of Spanish (numbers and aviation wording), same for those who are assigned to Africa, with French... Is it THAT difficult...? Is your paycheck not good enough for that effort...? Do you fly for an INTERNATIONAL airline, or are you limited to Alabamy...?
xxx
I learned Spanish when I was age 50... took me 3 months to be proficient. I wish I knew more than 50 words of Russian and 20 words of Greek.
xxx
Happy contrails  Smile
(s) Skipper

 
B747-4U3
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:54 am

I don't see what the problem is. Accidents do happen and we just have to accept that and I believe that French should continue to be used.

I have had a limited experience in the cockpit and from that I have gathered that many pilots are oblivious to what is going on around them. Once at LHR we moved forward to enter the runway as a plane was on finals (!) without realising that we had not been given perminssion to do so. Clearly, the use of a foreign language was not an issue there.

Mind you, I have to say, I am biased toward France.

A plus tard, mes amis.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:13 am

"Accidents do happen and we just have to accept that and I believe that French should continue to be used. "

Yes, and Controlled Flight into Terrain (CFIT) continues to occur so we might as well just not train CFIT avoidance.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
GLAGAZ
Topic Author
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:05 am

Just realised, i saw this on UKTV Docs. not Wings
Neutrality means that u don't really care cos the struggle goes on even when ur not there, blind and unaware
 
GLA MD11
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:29 am

MaverickM11,
Please provide some info about your MD80 and Shorts accident. I'd be curious to learn more about it and see how French did cause the death of somebody. Then we can talk more about it...
 
Skywatcher
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:49 am

Is it better to have a bunch of local, non-English speaking civil aviation pilots flying around who can't understand anything that ATC says to them in English?

Are you suggesting that only people who are fluent in English should be permitted to fly? What about the other 90% of the world?

I am English speaking but am worldly enough to realize that most of the world operates almost exclusively in many other languages.They have just as much right to fly as anybody else does.Why don't all pilots use Chinese, Hindi or Esparanto?

Seriously, we all have to share the sky as fairly as possible.Forcing a single language on everybody is impractical.Compromises must be made.
 
5T6
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:00 am

Why don't all pilots use Chinese, Hindi or Esparanto?

Because WE won the war!  Big thumbs up (just kidding)

Forcing a single language on everybody is impractical. Compromises must be made.

I respectfully disagree. Where safety is concerned, I really don't care if insisting on English is politically correct or not. English is and has been the accepted language for aviation. If a controller is working an airport where there is only local traffic that speaks something other than English...fine. But especially at something like CDG, yapping away in French is downright dangerous!

JMHO,

Mike

I see my Cats as Companions. My Cats see Me as Furniture!
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:10 am

"MaverickM11,
Please provide some info about your MD80 and Shorts accident. I'd be curious to learn more about it and see how French did cause the death of somebody. Then we can talk more about it..."

With pleasure...

http://aviation-safety.net/database/2000/000525-0.htm
http://www.ainonline.com/issues/09_01/09_01_languageconfusionpg6.html
en francais:
http://www.radiocockpit.com/2000_05_21_arc.htm
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
mrniji
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:20 am

Really weird... I just can't imagine to control aviation with multiple languages...

on UA 777, they offer (still offered?) in the Audio section a channel, where one could listen to ATC - Aircraft communication. I remember that in my flight from FRA-SFO throughout, the discussion was solely in English (with some nice accents, esp. Scottland and Island  Wink/being sarcastic )
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
GLA MD11
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:28 am

Thanks.
What I think: this incident could have happened without the 2 language problem. Look on the ntsb website to see the runway incursions in the US (no language problem). This is an ATC problem (give the Shorts authorization to enter after the MD is rolling).
The language problem is really secondary...
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:35 am

"The language problem is really secondary..."

I disagree; if everyone was speaking the same language then everyone would have had an additional assurance of their position, and the Shorts aircraft would have possibly decided not to taxi onto the active runway. Speaking two languages at a major international airport is not only uncessary, but absolutely dangerous.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
GLA MD11
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:41 am

I have to disagree. How many pilots do listen to the conversations to other aircrafts when they taxi / enter a runway? They are so busy with their own stuff that they concentrate on getting their ship on the air and that's all.
My point is the following: if the order to the MD80 had been given in English, that would certainly not have changed the faith of the Shorts (and its co-pilot / RIP).
You see lots of runway incursion when there is no language problem. That's a fact. See what happened in Milan when the MD80 crashed avoiding a private jet crossing the runway. Check out the NTSB simuations and you will be amazed (like I was) of how fast (and often) such an accident happen. There is in particular a frightening simulation of a Korean B744 avoiding an Air China B744 by 80 feet.
 
meister808
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:28 am

I'm an ATC in the Montreal Area Control Center, and we use both english and french here also, and let me tell you that in no way does this compromise the spacing between planes, whether it be at 30'000ft in the air or on short final for the rwy.

The english speaking pilots dont even need to understand the instructions given to the french speaking pilots. The ATC is the only one who has the picture of his airspace, and that is sufficient enough to provide the proper spacing.


Thenoflyzone:

Your standoffish and infallible attidude is exactly the kind of thinking that is damaging to aviation as a whole. Those of us who have been around aviation and payed attention to the advice and teaching that was given us realize that people do make mistakes, even if those people are highly trained pilots/ATC. The truth is that pilots, as well as ATC, need to pay attention to what is going on around them... this is called situational awareness, and includes making a 'picture' of what is going on in the sky just like ATC does. I am fully aware that the way Center radio traffic is worked keeps the number of aircraft on frequency down, but the awareness of where and what the traffic that is on frequency is doing can be a great help. Also keep in mind that the situation at hand wasn't a center, but a tower. In a tower situation, most airplanes can, in fact, hear the others on frequency, and this is certainly used to help maintain traffic avoidance. Any impedance to this process can only impede flight safety.

-Meister
Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
 
gkirk
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:36 am

IMHO, there should only be 1 language used throughout aviation - English.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
5T6
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:53 am

Meister808:

Well said, sir!

Even as a student pilot, one of the points that my instructor is always pressing home is situational awareness. As a pilot, I want to (and NEED to) know what is going on around me...not just in my own cockpit!

This is not an argument of "My language is better than Yours"!! Get a grip, people....the airways are no place for linguistic snobbery. English is the accepted standard. Use it. There must be ONE common language for Air Traffic Control.

Regards to all,

Mike
I see my Cats as Companions. My Cats see Me as Furniture!
 
s.p.a.s.
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:04 am

Here in Brazil most of the Brazilian pilots (airlines) speak in Portuguese (even when some English speaker is sharing the frequency) but in general the English proficiency level is low. Some pilots from the airline I worked nicknamed GRU airport as "say again sir airport" Big grin

Some airlines are trying to change this (at least on their side of the equation) and I have heard that the English test is becoming more important that the flight hours logged, at least two guys I know got a job (over other guys who had more flight hours) just because they were excellent on English.

Rgds

RS
"ad astra per aspera"
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:18 am

Well said Skywatcher!

As for you Meister808, I have one thing to say to you about your situational awareness:

IT"S CALLED A TCAS!

The language IS a secondary problem to the issue, whether you americans believe it or not!

AK
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
A330
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:32 am

ATCO's will always have a better situational awareness than the pilot, and it is FAR MORE IMPORTANT that a pilot FULLY understands HIS instructions than that he knows the instructions of others.
Only if ALL pilots flying to an airport are fluent in English comms., we can adopt an all English communications environment. At this time however, we are from this situation.

Another thing, If you read Annex10 "Communications " of ICAO, it states that you mus use the language normally spoken in that country during communications unless otherwise stated or if you don't know the language. Then, you must revert to English.
The official ICAO languages have nothing to do with air-ground communications.
Shiek!
 
5T6
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:40 am

Nofly,

"I have one thing to say to you about your situational awareness:

IT"S CALLED A TCAS!
"

It's obvious that as a "trainee" at ATC, you've NEVER flown an airplane. It may be easy for you to think that way sitting there looking at a radar screen, but guess what? When REAL airplanes collide, they make a very loud noise and people get hurt!! It's much more than a computer telling you that two "blips" just converged!! I am right now very grateful that I will not be flying into YOUR airspace anytime in the near future.

BTW...If the only thing pilots needed was TCAS...YOU wouldn't have a career to look forward to!! Think about that, mon ami.

Bon chance,

Michel
I see my Cats as Companions. My Cats see Me as Furniture!
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:47 am

"The language IS a secondary problem to the issue, whether you americans believe it or not! "

And the mountain was secondary to the fact that Cali's radar equipment was inop when the AA 757 hit it. Most, if not all, accidents are a string of errors that lead to a catastrophic result. If you guys keep excusing this error here, that error there, because they weren't the primary cause of the accident, you're going to end up with an extremely unsafe aviation industry. For example, if that bizjet in Milan taxied north, like it was supposed to, instead of south, it would have never collided with the SK M87. However, when taxying on the southern taxiway there was no signage stating that they were on the incorrect taxiway. The ATC did not acknowlege that the bizjet was in the wrong place when they announced their position. People make mistakes, don't give them more reasons to make mistakes by complicating their communication.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:51 am

5T6,

FYI I have flown a plane!

The thing you cant seem to understand is that it is not about "when the airplanes collide", but why the airplanes collide! I am not saying that the language didn't cause a problem, I'm just saying that is is not the primary reason why those 2 planes hit at CDG!

P.S If I didn't have a career to be looking to, you'd be hearing a lot more "loud noise" at an airport near you!



[Edited 2004-03-10 01:53:57]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
5T6
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:06 am

P.S If I didn't have a career to be looking to, you'd be hearing a lot more "loud noise" at an airport near you!

Which is why I (and all other students where I'm training) have the utmost respect for ATC!!

YOU are the one that said to leave it all to TCAS. There is no replacement for a good pilot and a good controller working together. BUT they cannot do it if they don't speak the same language...and at International Airports, that language is English!!!

The only thing worse than an inept AT Controller is one who is a good controller that insists on speaking in a language that the pilots under his control do not understand. Mon Dieu!!!!!  Big grin

Keep them apart and safe, my friend!!

Regards,

Mike

I see my Cats as Companions. My Cats see Me as Furniture!
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:29 pm

5T6,

Yes they can do it speaking different languages!!

You want proof?....Paris, Montreal and all the other french and english speaking area control centers or Towers around the world do it all the time!

You're pissed off at the wrong problem!....The problem here is that the ATC shouldn't have given that instruction to the Shorts to taxi onto the active runway!..Whether he said it in english or in french is completely irrelevant!

Now think about that for a moment before responding!

P.S And don't worry, I will keep them apart and safe, that's my job...and I will do it speaking either french or english! Why? Because the ICAO tells me I can do so! and if your pissed off about that, then I feel sorry for you, because what you believe in is irrelevant, whether you realize it or not!
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
santosdumont
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:11 pm

Just a quick note. There used to be a live internet feed from the TWR at GRU and it was standard procedure for ATC to talk to the Brazilian acft in Portuguese (and vice versa) and to the non-Brazilian acft in English (and vice versa).

I'm not an ATC nor am I a professional pilot (one day...), but I'm just curious about how airports with heavy international traffic in a country where English is not the primary language handle that situation.

Anyone know how they do it at, say, AMS or FRA?
"Pursuit Of Truth No Matter Where It Lies" -- Metallica
 
Guest

RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:20 pm

MaverickM11: "The French unions are (*#&$(*@# jerks and now they have blood on their hands because of the stupidity and stubborness. "

You are talking about French people having blood on their hands? That's a joke, sorry.
AA made mistakes in DC 10 maintenance. Plane(s) crashed. The handbooks were published in english language, AA employes didnt read them. Hundreds of people were dying cause of that failure. So don't talk about (*#&$(*@# , ok?
 
User avatar
sebolino
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:36 pm

The fact that an accident can be caused by a language problem is the proof the system has to change.

The ATC orders should for example be transmitted to an on-board computer in a standardized way and not only by voice.

If speaking French is dangerous, speaking English to a bad English-speaker is then also dangerous.
 
jcs17
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Thu Mar 11, 2004 12:11 am

It is very dangerous for more than one language to be used by ATC and pilots. As a pilot (not speaking from experience), it is very important for one to know the instructions that the ATC is giving other a/c, not just yours. What happens when ATC gives an instruction in French to another a/c and another pilot who happens to be in the same heading etc. cannot understand--he simply cannot react.

Sebolino, I would feel much more comfortable with a bad English-speaking pilot at the helm than one who only spoke French fluently and had little understanding of the English language. At least other a/c could understand the instructions given to that pilot.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
flykal
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Thu Mar 11, 2004 12:23 am

1. Yes, there are controllers who have poor English, just like there are pilots.

2. Yes, ICAO does have 6 official languages.

However, ICAO has mandated that by 2008, all pilots and Air Traffic Controllers (even native speakers), must take an ICAO certified Aviation English test which will assess their English level. If you can't pass the test, you can't operate to any other ICAO member states (which basically means you can't fly internationally).

This is one step to ensuring that all pilots and ATC personnel have an English standard that is in fact 'a standard'.

I flew into CDG last week and had a difficult time to comprehend some ATC instructions. Numbers are sometimes hard to distinguish and all people understand accents differently. The other issue is that it's extremely difficult to gain situation awareness if controllers are speaking in different languages as you cannot understand the instructions being given to other aircraft in your vicinity.


The reality is that aviation IS an international operation, however, ICAO (which is essentially the United Nations aviation division), has elected English as the primary means of communication. This was ratified by the large majority of ICAO members (of which the majority are English speaking countries).

That's politics for you my friends!

Cheers,
Phil
One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Thu Mar 11, 2004 12:49 am

"MaverickM11: "The French unions are (*#&$(*@# jerks and now they have blood on their hands because of the stupidity and stubborness. "

You are talking about French people having blood on their hands? That's a joke, sorry.
AA made mistakes in DC 10 maintenance. Plane(s) crashed. The handbooks were published in english language, AA employes didnt read them. Hundreds of people were dying cause of that failure. So don't talk about (*#&$(*@# , ok?
"

How can you defend the French unions for supporting a dangerous system? They absolutely are 100% blameworthy for this accident. AA made a mistake....they didn't have unions protesting that shoddy maintenance is acceptable and engine attachment points don't have to be sturdy. If they did then I would agree with you but that is not the case. These are completely different scenarios and it's insulting that you compare the two. The French protested that half the pilots should not have to understand what ATC is saying, and it's resulted in a death. Sounds like (#@&*$( to me!
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
fraT
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:16 am

LH pilots in FRA have their conversations with ATC in English.
Please do not respond telling me that German is no official ICAO language.

So if German pilots and ATC staff (as well as those from a lot of other countries) can speak English at intl. airports why others can't??

You cannot ask pilots for major carriers to speak every language of countries they are flying to. For example a CO pilot would need to speak English, French, German, Spanish, Dutch, Hebrew, Italian and Portuguese (maybe I forgot one or two) when he/she is flying the 772/764/762.
 
GLAGAZ
Topic Author
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:24 am

The incident over india involving the Saudi 747 and Ilyshuin 76 was also blamed on misinterpretation as the pilots didn't understand what ATC had said and by the time the engineer on the 76 realised they were descending too low, it was too late.
Neutrality means that u don't really care cos the struggle goes on even when ur not there, blind and unaware
 
meister808
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:45 am

The problem here is that the ATC shouldn't have given that instruction to the Shorts to taxi onto the active runway!..Whether he said it in english or in french is completely irrelevant!


Once again, thenoflyzone, you demonstrate a very dangerous attitude here, as you did in your first post and in your "its called a TCAS" post.. people make mistakes. The fact that wrong instructions were given to the Shorts is true, and very relevant. However, it is also very relevant that the Shorts pilot, who could have conceivably been unfamiliar with the airport, was unaware which runway was active, something that wouldn't be helped by not understanding the clearances being given to other aircraft. If I was taxiing, getting ready to cross a runway, and either just before or while I was on the runway another aircraft was cleared to take off on that same runway, I would damn sure speak up about it, hopefully before the other pilot could even get a chance to read back the clearance. I couldn't do that if the takeoff clearance was given in a language that I was unfamiliar with.

I know that this may be a hard thing to grasp if you haven't ever piloted an aircraft in a busy airspace or on a busy airport, but staying aware of other airplanes around you is something that you have to do if you are interested in safely completing the flight.

-Meister
Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
 
Guest

RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:46 am

Friends who are pilots/future pilots... one advice...
xxx
If you are not born to the English language... well - it is the designated aviation language. So, study English, in all its forms and accents, North American English, British English, and English spoken by other people...
xxx
For heaven's sake, I say again, if you fly internationally, learn some basics of the dominant language(s) for the areas you will fly to. Spanish, French are among those languages that could help you a lot...
xxx
Any pilot should learn to be able to understand -
"Buenas, Bogota - Argentina uno dos tres, nivel tres siete zero... or
"Bonsoir, Paris - Air France un deux trois, au niveau trois soixante-dix...
xxx
Again, put this in your head.
ICAO recommends the use of English in aviation, not a law.
The local language is always permitted anywhere, in addition to English.
xxx
Happy contrails  Smile
(s) Skipper

 
LHcapt2007
Posts: 227
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:59 am

"The ATC orders should for example be transmitted to an on-board computer in a standardized way and not only by voice."

any previous discussions or leads on this technology?
sounds like the solution - in addition to finalizing with the "ICAO certified Aviation English test". person talks:computer types:sends to pilot:pilot comlies

there are backups to every other system, how about the most critical one-language?

english will never make everyone happy(especially not the french).
cheers,
LHcapt2007
TNCM
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15326
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Thu Mar 11, 2004 2:00 am

"For heaven's sake, I say again, if you fly internationally, learn some basics of the dominant language(s) for the areas you will fly to. Spanish, French are among those languages that could help you a lot..."

That's an excellent lesson for life not just pilots, especially for Americans. However, it is still critical that at any international airport, everyone is able to understand each other. It also helps that when Chinese pilots hear a strange noise in the cockpit repeating "PULL UP" they know what action to take...
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
A330
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The Icao Law On This Matter

Thu Mar 11, 2004 2:29 am

B747Skipper,

You are so right! I flew for a while in Spain, and i'm now fluent in Spanish RT
"Iberwold 123 Viento en cola pista 30" "Iberwold 321 Mantenga position"...

Most complainers about multiple language airports come from native English speakers, who would WITHOUT ANY DOUBT do the same as the French, Spanish, Chinese etc. if the Preferred International ICAO language would be Spanish. By the way, When the ICAO member-states chose the uniform language to be used in aviation, English only won because Mexico was bribed by the USA to vote for English... If not it would have been Spanish.
And one other thing, I do know that 99% of the A.Net know nothing about Air-Law but if you read the ICAO Annex10, you will see the ONLY true answer:

5.2.1.1.1 Recommendation: In general, the air-ground radiotelephony communications should be conducted in the language normally used by the station on the ground. (whether this is English or Swahilli)
note: the language used by the station on the ground may not be necessarily the language of the state in which it is situated.

5.2.1.1.2 Recommendation: PENDING THE DEVELOPPEMENT AND ADOPTION OF A MORE SUITABLE FORM OF SPEECH FOR UNIVERSAL USE, the English language should be used as such and should be available, on request from any aircraft station unable to comply with 5.2.1.1.1 , at all stations on the ground serving designated airports and routes used by international air services.

END OF DISCUSSION!
Shiek!
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:11 am

"5.2.1.1.2 Recommendation: PENDING THE DEVELOPPEMENT AND ADOPTION OF A MORE SUITABLE FORM OF SPEECH FOR UNIVERSAL USE, the English language should be used as such and should be available, on request from any aircraft station unable to comply with 5.2.1.1.1 , at all stations on the ground serving designated airports and routes used by international air services.

END OF DISCUSSION!"

Yes precisely, "the english language should be used ...for universal use", end of discussion. You are correct even though your evidence completely disproves your rantings that English speakers bribed everyone blah blah blah. The fact remains that the US is the biggest aviation market in the world, and combined with Canada, Australia, the EU, and Asia, they all have spoken English for years and will continue to do so. Spanish would serve no one but Spain and Latin America. French? Forget it. Despite France's enormous ego and extensive monuments to wars they lost, very few people on earth speak French, relatively speaking, and even fewer fly. To propose a Tower of Babel solution is to propose aviation anarchy.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
LHcapt2007
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:33 am

quick, get out the Annex10, he can't be speaking french! crash...
TNCM
 
A330
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:39 am

MaverickM11,

I suggest you to read the recommendations again, becaus you don't seem to understand what is written.

We must use the language used by ATC, whatever that language is.
If we can't speak that language THEN we must revert to English.
Shiek!
 
wingnutmn
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:41 am

Just to add something to the situation. I feel that it is ok for a pilot and ATC to talk in their native language or language that they speak most fluent when there is an emergency situation. It is ridiculous for anyone to expect someone to understand a second language when they are fighting for control of a situation. There was a story about a 747 pilot over in Japan (I think) who had a catastrophic failure of the tail and was struggling with speaking english, so they converted back to japanese. Unfortunately the plane still crashed, but the pilot didn't have to worry about language barriers while he was attempting to regain control of his plane.

Situational Awareness is more than a TCAS. I personally don't want to put my life in the hands of just one piece of equipment. TCAS has failed before, and when it goes, I don't want to be left wondering where everyone else is. This isn't a problem so much for when you are cruising in flight, but rather on takeoffs and landings, when you are decending and climbing through other peoples airspace. Thats when my SA goes way up and my reliance on TCAS is still there, but not at what it is as is cruise flight.

Also, not every plane has TCAS, so one can't make a blanket statement about how everyone should rely on it. TCAS didn't help the 4 pilots and however many pax that died when the 2 planes collided over Germany a few years back, SA - South Carolina">AND, they all were speaking english that day.

Just my thoughts on the conversation

WingnutMN
Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
 
hawkeye2
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:17 am

It's not the case for all countries that they speak their native language.

I've flown a lot within Asia, on UA, listening to their Channel 9. In Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, and Hong Kong (but not mainland China), they still always use English, even to the planes from their own countries. They don't speak Japanese or Chinese or Korean. Interesting, isn't it?
 
donder10
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:31 am

Are you suggesting that only people who are fluent in English should be permitted to fly? What about the other 90% of the world?


I think you are missing the crux of the argument.We're not talking about a tiny little regional aiport in South America where only native airlines fly in so the controllers have no need to speak English or anything but Spanish(or Portuguese).That's fine.
But,ALL the controllers at Roissy-CDG can speak perfectly good English and all the French pilots speak perfectly good English as well.It's a major international hub yet around 1/2 the instructions are given out in French only.The Shorts incident(I believe) occured because he was told to line up at an intersection and the controller then cleared a French aircraft to take off at the full length(or vice versa).If the instructions to the French pilot had been given in English then there is a good chance that the incident wouldn't have occured as the pilot would have been fully alerted to the situation.That's my understand of it anyway.
 
N79969
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:15 am

There is a compelling safety reason behind having a lingua franca for aviation. As B747Skipper pointed out so well, having a single language allows for far greater situational awareness for pilots and controllers.

Maintaining aircraft separation is the responsibility of both pilots and controllers. If you know where other aircraft are, what they intend to do, and where they are coming from, it certainly helps everyone 'see and avoid.'

Those of you who speak more than a single language know that fumbling words and meanings happens more often when going back and forth between languages.

[Edited 2004-03-10 21:23:10]
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Language Problems At CDG.

Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:14 am

"MaverickM11,

I suggest you to read the recommendations again, becaus you don't seem to understand what is written.

"

I understand perfectly; I'm saying it's an abhorrent procedure. Tell me, what do you do when a critical piece of information is relayed in one language but you don't understand it, and it's not translated. Don't you think the Shorts crew would have appreciated a translation of the takeoff clearance to the MD-80? I think they might have liked very much to know that an airplane was just cleared to takeoff on the runway they were approaching.
E pur si muove -Galileo