airNondo
Posts: 237
Joined: Sun May 14, 2000 2:09 pm

PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:43 pm

Could anyone give an update on how the PDX-FRA-PDX and the Mexican flights are doing.
Last I heard the FRA flight was doing very decent, and the Mexican flights were getting shuffled around to various Mexican airports? (typical of Mexicana)

Any new information? Any trip reports on either?

Thanks, Nondo
 
kwbl
Posts: 425
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RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:17 am

the LH flights are doing OK but the loads were not good in January-somewhere in the 64% range though the cargo is still good. They were down to 3x weekly during Feb but are back up to 5 for March and then will daily in April. As for MX, the loads are improving but still do not appear to be very strong-as much as I hate to say it, I would not be surprised if MX is gone fairly soon.
 
as739x
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RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:27 am

Unfortunatly I have to back what kwbl said about MX. I spoke with a Mexicana employee who helped open the station. She told me the same, that loads have not cut it and don't be surprised if they pull out of PDX. I don't know anything about LH so I can not help you there.
ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
Leneld
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RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:41 am

Maybe these airlines just need to move up north to Seattle.. I'm sure thier passenger counts would improve greatly there. The reality is Portland just cannot support International flights and the city is failing domestically also. No one want to travel here. I'm sure Northwest will eventually leave Portland as well in about a year.
 
kwbl
Posts: 425
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RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Thu Mar 11, 2004 2:06 am

Leneld-I think your statement is a bit over the top. MX is doing poorly (IMO), because of competition to Mexico. Many from PDX still fly AS or HP because they can fly to resort destinations direct (one-stop service). Also, MX is only 3x per week. LH appears to be fairly satisfied with the market at this time-They will be back to daily for the next 6 months and then we'll see. If LH thought they would do better at SEA, I am sure they would have gone their. Don't forget that SEA already has BA, SAS & NW flying direct to Europe. Also, don't forget that the PDX market feeds SEA flights. You have posted many times that AS "ignores" PDX and I tend to agree with you on that one but remember they feel they can get PDX people to fly QX up to SEA. If someone begins to infringe on AS routes out of PDX, you will see AS react by adding flights-especially to the east. PDX can support these flights-the only question is will they. As for NW leaving in a year, I am not sure what you are using to base your opinions on for that one. I personally think NW will be the most succesful of the 3.
 
Leneld
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RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Thu Mar 11, 2004 2:53 am

Actually I was being really sarcastic. For some reason when it come to Portland, most of the posting are so negative about our city and its flight potentials. Sometime I leave this forum thinking that there are a lot of member here that really have a dislike for PDX. I'm probably one of the most passionate and pro Portland supporter in this forum. I do agree with you though. The real issue isn't the fact that Portland cannot support these flights. If people refuse to change their flying habits and continue to use these other airlines its inevitable that airlines like Mexicana will fail here. Northwest will probably do well here with the feed it will receive from Alaska and Horizon and I still hold high hopes even for Lufthansa.
 
kwbl
Posts: 425
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RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:03 am

Agree with you there Leneld. I find it interesting that currently SEA has around 14 daily nonstops to NYC and PDX has 1 (2 in summer). However the O& D numbers are roughly 2 to 1. SMF has 2/3 of the O & D number to NYC but has the same number flights. Why is that? Most of SEA markets are about 2 times as large as Portland's but the number of flights are far greater from SEA-especially to PHL, BOS, MCO, JFK etc where PDX has zero nonstop flights. Just seems odd to me.
 
Leneld
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RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:29 am

Kwl..You have just summed up what I been saying on this forum for such a long time. I understand that Seattle should have more flights than Portland, since Seattle has roughly 24,000,000+ passengers a year to Portland 13,000,000. Wouldn't you think we would have at least half of the routes currently being served from Seattle. We don't even have that..Maybe we need to build our own cruise ship teminal in downtown Portland. Who know....
 
searpqx
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RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:54 am

Actually Leneld, you've hit on a big piece of the problem. It isn't just the raw numbers that dictate which cities are flown from which airports, it's also the roles each city plays in the northwest. Portland, for the most part, is an O&D destination. Yes there is a small amount of feed into PDX that goes on to Coos Bay/North Bend, etc., but for the most part, if you're flying into Portland you're ending your trip. That has been the case since the area was settled. PDX was never a transportation hub, not for rail, sea or now air. SEA on the other hand, grew up as being a gateway. And over the years, continues to add to that, as indicated by the explosion of cruise traffic that Seattle will see this year.

None of this is to say that PDX couldn't support one or two non-stop flights a day to more destinations, it probably could. But the airlines, especially in this day and age, are focused on deploying their assets where they will get the most return. The perfect example of this is Southwest. Southwest is known for 'connecting the dots' between stations, purposely avoiding hub flying. So while WN obviously sees a market in PDX (else they wouldn't be there), they see other new routes as providing a better return, so you don't get the new service you crave.

And to close, before you lump me in with those that "hate" Portland, you couldn't be farther from the truth. I love the city, and actually like PDX more than SEA (at least until the renovations are done). But economic reality is economic reality, as long as the Puget Sound remains the transportation hub of the PNW, SEA is going see a disproportionate share of n/s flights as compared to PDX.

Rgds
Duane
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:41 am

PDX was never a transportation hub

interesting....

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Coronado990
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RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:29 am

PDX, TPA, SAN...

They're all in the 13-15 million pax category...deserving their own intercontinental service...but situated near larger airports such as SEA, MCO and LAX. We're too far to be considered an alternative and too close to warrant it's own service. It's a tough row to hoe.

For example, I counted 8-9 non-stops flights a day from LAX-LHR this summer. Granted San Diego is only one-fourth the size of the L.A. Metro area, but it should deserve at least one of those flights. And that's assuming one-half of those LAX flights are serving onward connecting passengers to the smaller communities around California (including a large sum to SAN, BTW). They'll just squeeze more flights into the TBIT somehow while the new international gates at SAN sit empty. For one of the most populated area's in the country, it is absurd for Southern California to only have one intercontinental airport. Spread it around man!!!
Uncle SAN at your service!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:38 am

BA just withdrew LHR-SAN.... so, so much for that at this point.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
searpqx
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RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:00 am

Big difference between one airline at the airport having an international gateway for a relatively short period and the entire area being a transportation hub, which is what I was saying. And actually, DL's experience is exactly what I was talking about. Because there was neither enough local O & D or feed from other markets to support it, Dl's PDX gateway never performed the way DL wanted it to, so they reallocated the planes, crews, etc., to markets and destinations that provided a greater return.

Again, I'm not saying PDX doesn't deserve broader coverage than its got, and couldn't support some additional service, but as Coronado990 pointed out, PDX is in a tough position, and until something drastically changes up in SEA, it's not likely to happen.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
Coronado990
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RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:09 am

BA just withdrew LHR-SAN.... so, so much for that at this point.

I heard they couldn't keep it up!...They had to withdraw.  Big thumbs up

Oh wait...that was Concorde.
Uncle SAN at your service!
 
airNondo
Posts: 237
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RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:14 am

PDX is a transit hub for air cargo, rail, and to a degree, shipping (with grain shipments coming down the Columbia on barges, and shipping out of PDX to Asia, etc).
Other than this, I agree with pretty much what has been said.

Any more specifics (or stats) on the LH flight?
 
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ramprat74
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RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:25 am

I work at PDX. I rather see the LH flight up in SEA. As soon as the companies, city and airport stop giving LH incentives. What is LH going to do then? They would be better off in SEA. The SEA market has more O&D traffic. It would be easier for them to fill the flight without incentives.

The Port of Portland is a joke. I would love to see LH close up shop in PDX.
 
kwbl
Posts: 425
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RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:08 am

Ramprat-Why would you "love" to see LH fail at PDX. Using the logic that PDX has less O & D, then why doesn't PDX just close the whole airport and send everyone up via Amtrak?. SEA already has 3 daily nonstops to Europe (not including Aeroflot) in addition to the many connections available thru YVR, ORD, CVG, MSP, DTW etc. I agree with you the Port does some weird stuff (high landing fees etc) but more important than your dislike of the Port of Portland is the Oregon economy - LH is very important to the region from an economic standpoint. If LH does close shop here, it would be very bad for the local economy and not something I would want to see. Another question, and I am not trying to flame here, but if you hate the Port of Portland so much, why not work somewhere where they do not have have influence on your job.

Airnondo- I am being lazy so I cannot look up the numbers and give you an exact statistical breakdown but LH was around an 85% load factor for the calendar year 2003. They also carrier a very substantial amount of cargo which far exceeded LH's expectations (from an article I read several months ago). The January number were closer to 64% but cargo appeared strong on the 5x weekly flights. I would guess February's numbers will be low since they were at 3x per week for that month. They are going back to daily so I would anticipate the LF to go back up to the 80 to 90% range for April through October. Then we'll see if LH keep daily year-round or reduces frequency again.

The real key to keep LH here is to get people to use the flight instead of connecting somewhere the USA
 
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ramprat74
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RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Thu Mar 11, 2004 8:36 am

Kwbl

Its just a sore subject with me. The city of Portland gives all this money to LH when its schools are falling apart. They were going to cut 18 days off the school year. They were going to get rid of all the sport programs. The economy is still bad in Oregon with the LH flight. I hate to say. All airports like the Port.
 
kwbl
Posts: 425
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 11:55 am

RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Thu Mar 11, 2004 8:49 am

Ramprat- I cannot remember the details of the incentives for LH but I do not believe the city of Portland or the Port actually gave money to LH. They waived landing fees and leases on space and the state chipped in some money to promote tourism. I think the only thing I saw was that if LH was to drop below daily flights (which they did), they were going to have the other carriers pay more (which is really stupid-maybe that is why every major west coast airport has jetBlue but not PDX?). The city of Portland has many problems that go way deeper than what is going on at the Port of Portland-primarily bad leadership. I am familiar with the plight of schools in our great state but I do not think it's really a problem of not enough money but rather tremendous waste and excessive administration. Notice that the schools were screaming that they did not have enough money, yet for the most part, they have continued to operate, programs are still going, and some school districts (forest grove and Salem come to mind) found additional dollars after measure 30 went down in flames. The economy is improving, albeit slowly so hoprefully this will help ALL of parties (LH, schools, more flights etc...)
 
zonks
Posts: 156
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RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Thu Mar 11, 2004 12:16 pm

Right, so lets say LH does leave PDX. Do you really believe because of that happening, Portland Public Schools will suddenly get more money?

I still don't see the logic in wishing for something (the departure of LH) that would damage our economy here. I don't know how much money LH brings in, but I'm sure it's something.
 
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ramprat74
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RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:31 pm

Right, so lets say LH does leave PDX. Do you really believe because of that happening, Portland Public Schools will suddenly get more money?

No, I didn't say that. I said the city of Portland probably added to the incentive fund to lure LH into PDX. The POP is like the mafia. They charge the other airlines higher rent for a year so they could give a newcomer free rent. They charge the airport retailers rent plus take 10% of their sales. They charge every employee $30.00 a month to park in their employee parking lot. Then they build it 10 miles away.

I'm just saying, the POP and city of Portland needs to get their priorities straight. They give money to LH, build a 5 million dollar riverfront walkway. Then they say they have to cut back in the schools and police. I will step down off my soapbox now.
 
Leneld
Posts: 600
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RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:38 pm

Ramprat74..Here's a little word of advise..Move...............Try Seattle.
 
StevenUhl777
Posts: 3281
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 11:02 am

RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:43 pm

Specific to the LH flight:
- Actual revenue passenger miles?
- Cargo revenue vs. passenger revenue? (I'll bet cargo is much higher)
- Ave. # of passengers during the winter season?

Remember, LH started this almost a year ago, so the people flying on it druing the past 11 1/2 months are using the tickets that were purchased (at a discount?) as part of a block sale to several different local companies, at a set rate, and LH is benefitting from incentives offered by the port. So yes, the first year of operations will look good. The key statistic to look at will be revenues and expenses once the incentives disappear and the original ticket blocks are used up. Only then will we see the true performance of this service, and only then can we make a determination of its long-term viability.

Remember also that the economies of both Oregon and Germany are still in recession mode right now. If the economy of one or both improves, then the long term outlook for PDX keeping the service is good. If the status quo remains in place, hmmm...not good. There is a lot of political pressure in Oregon to keep this LH flight and make is successful, so I would expect the Port to modify/renew to whatever ends necessary to keep it. Oregon has closer business ties with Germany than the Seattle area does, and I'd be curious as to how many people from the SEA area fly to PDX to catch this PDX-FRA, avoiding the hassle of going through YVR. In SEA, LH would have to compete against BA, SAS, and NW. By sticking with PDX, they can serve the US Pacific Northwest knowing there will always be some incentives offered from the city, not to mention no other competition for nonstop service to Europe.

Here's what Oregon/Portland can do to increase their chances of keeping the flight:
- aggressively market Oregon/SW Washington as a tourist destination in the FRA, MUC and Berlin markets, especially the natual outdoors and recreational opportunities. Germans LOVE the outdoors, and if marketed correctly at a good price, Oregon is a perfect place to come visit. An hour to the ocean and mountains!
- Promote Oregon's tax structure to German companies, i.e. lower property taxes and NO SALES TAX...compared with WA and CA, Oregon clearly has the advantage.
- growth potential of Oregon's agribusiness industry, not to mention wineries/microbreweries.

Just my .02.

And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
zonks
Posts: 156
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RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:08 pm

Ramprat74:
Right, I think we can all agree that the City of Portland could certainly do a better job in running the city, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that I hope LH leaves.

Like others have mentioned on this thread, it's not that clear as to how much the Port spent to attract LH here, but I personally think that it was a good thing to get them in here.

Portland's a great town and I'm sure all of here just want to see it reach its true potential. We just have different ideas as to how that could be done.

Cheers,
Kevin.
 
airNondo
Posts: 237
Joined: Sun May 14, 2000 2:09 pm

RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:58 pm

move to Seattle....Never!
 
airNondo
Posts: 237
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RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:07 pm

Hey, Zonks, Leneld, Ramprat, Surprised to see so many of you Portlanders still up-- Great to see interest for NW airports back again to A.net, been gone for a while.
Cheers! Nondo
 
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ramprat74
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RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:45 am

I just read this in the paper today. The Port is going to move AA to the C concourse to make room for the bus stop for connecting NW passengers. It will cost the Port 1.2 million. The article stated that the port will make up the cost by charging more rent for the other airlines.  Angry

This is what makes me mad. The POP has more money then the city of Portland. Why do they have to charge the other airlines for the move. They have plenty of money to pay for it. They bring in over $2 million a year in just employee parking.

I like Portland. I know its good for the city and businesses to have LH flying to Germany. I just don't like how much power the Port has. I just like anything that makes the Port lose money. This is the main reason I would like LH to leave PDX.
 
flyboy80
Posts: 1857
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 8:10 am

RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:51 am

down here in EUG... we have recently got some growth as well... Half of our market place uses PDX... Which Kinda sucks... however United Express is adding An 8th SFO and has added a third DEN out of here... iN addition we are getting DL connection to SLC, and Mesa is going all CR9 here supposeably!
 
Leneld
Posts: 600
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 9:00 am

RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Fri Mar 12, 2004 7:42 am

Does anyone know why Portland hasn't received 1 additional service this year domestically?
 
zonks
Posts: 156
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RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Fri Mar 12, 2004 8:23 am

Leneld:
Maybe it's shenanigans such as the raising of rent that has made domestic carriers think twice about starting service to PDX.

For AA, though, the C concourse is nicer than D/E. Didn't they used to be over in C prior to the renovations over there?
 
flashmeister
Posts: 2671
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 4:32 am

RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:14 am

Can someone post the link to the AA moving to C story?

I fail to see why they'd need to move AA over there just for the bus stop. How can that take up so much room? Why not shuffle AA to other empty gates on D?

This has more to do with AA wanting to be in the same security 'zone' as AS, to make their codeshare more appealing to connecting pax, who have to clear security now to go from D to A/B/C. If that's the case, then I'm fairly irritated that the Port is paying for this at all.
 
mymiles2go
Posts: 169
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2003 4:00 pm

RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:32 am

I think too many people try to draw and analyze too much based on simple population numbers. Assuming that if there are 2X in Y city, that there for if there are 1X in Z city, Z will have 1/2 of Y. Not true. A million factors determine how many and what flights will end up being to/from various cities.

I don't mean to sound mean to all those Portlanders - but quite honestly, if Portland could support all these (currently non-existant) flights that everyone says they have the "potential" to support - then I can guarantee you that the airlines would have those flights. But...quite obviously, there simply isn't the traffic to support more flights than currently scheduled.
 
jeckPDX
Posts: 250
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RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Fri Mar 12, 2004 12:37 pm

Not to stray horribly off subject but to just set apart some strong OPINIONS!

Mymiles: I'm not so sure about your your statement. Ramprat: The POP does have some shady business practices, but as a grad student in Urban studies @ PSU, I attend sity planning meetings regularly, and the POP does not see much money at all, nor LH. The only major expenses involved with the sity were the airport construction/renovation and MAX light rail. Granted these are expensive operations but necessary to keep the airport as alluring as it is. Most people I know would much rather travel through PDX because the terminal is very user friendly, modern and elegant with excellent shopping at reasonable prices. (the stores are not allowed to charge any more than they would at any other outlet) As far as PPS, their costs are the administration's fault more than the city's.(many labor/wage strikes) PPS received more govt $ than many other school districts in the metro area that were not inflicted with any hardships mentioned. Perhaps you pay too mucj attention to the papers which are not always entirerly accurate when concerning these matters.
If any one wants to know more about the city and spending analysis, etc, contact me b/c I have loads of great info on all kinds of city, planning, and spending issues.

As for the international service, this is something that is necessary to help our economy grow hopefully attracting new German/European business' to PDX through LH nonstop and to help AS and NW create more domestic direct flights to feed LH and upcoming NW to AA), Japan">NRT traffic in and out. It is a smart investment in resources if the move is played out correctly.

Flashmeister, you are correct, AA used to gates in concourse C before the rebuild of C took place 1998-2002. It is a great possibility that would also like to share a common gate area with thier aliance partner AS.

JeckPDX
"Beer is proof that God Loves us and wanted People to be Happy" - Ben Franklin
 
kwbl
Posts: 425
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 11:55 am

RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:34 pm

MyMiles2go-Though some people refer simply to population as a basis of flights, I've been using the DOT statistics for city pairs. 4th quarter (and I am going off memory), SEA-NYC had roughly 1600 daily passengers and PDX had roughly 700 per day. Yet SEA has a 14 to 1 ratio on nonstop flights. I don't agree with the statement "if the market was there, someone would be fly it". If this statement were true, then all the airlines would be making money and every community would be happy. The simple fact is that airlines don't always do a good job of analyzing their markets. I'll give you an example: For many years, PDX did not have a nonstop flight to HNL. There was a very strong demand so passengers ended up having to fly to SEA or SFO. The moment those NS flights started, the flights were packed.
 
mymiles2go
Posts: 169
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2003 4:00 pm

RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:45 pm

Kwbl -

I agree with you that airlines don't always guage n/s flights or even entire markets correctly. But - I believe that once a n/s flight is in a particular market, they are able to fairly accurately guage the demand for passengers on that particular route. Hence, your NY example. But... a brief check of the Electronic timetable only show's between 8-9 flights a day nonstop SEA-NYC. Up to 10-12 flights during the summer. Which does compare roughly equal with your numbers of 1-2 for Portland. I'm not sure where you're getting 14 N/S a day to NYC from Seattle, but that's all right.

For tomorrow I show:

SEA-JFK:
Jetblue (1 flight at 1:05AM)
Delta (1 flight at 8:20AM, codeshared on AZ)
American (1 flight at 11:30AM, codeshared on AS)

SEA-EWR:
Continental (3 flights total, 8:00AM, 12:20PM, 3:55PM)
Alaska (2 flights total, 8:55AM, 2:34PM)
(misc codeshares layed on top of those flighs to EWR)

Total daily SEA-NYC flights: 8

Now... that all said, yes, there is a large number of folks who apparently will pay for the N/S service out of Seattle. But...keep in mind, it's also Alaska's hub (accounting for the 2 flights alone), and EWR is one of CO's Major hubs (so they are pretty much obliged to have flights to hit thier hubtimes from a larger city like Seattle). But... anyways...enough analysis... it's all interesting stuffs.

 
airNondo
Posts: 237
Joined: Sun May 14, 2000 2:09 pm

RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:56 pm

...a brief check of the Electronic timetable only show's between 8-9 flights a day nonstop SEA-NYC. Up to 10-12 flights during the summer. Which does compare roughly equal with your numbers of 1-2 for Portland.

Mymiles--- How does this compare equally to the ratio of 1600 daily pax SEA-NYC, and 700 daily PDX-NYC? You are mistaken, there would need to be 4-5 daily non-stops PDX-SEA in winter alone for this ratio to be equal.

The bottom line, airlines route pax through their hubs instead of starting n/s flights from 2ndary cities because the profits to be made by filling a/c at a hub are greater than the opportunity cost of not starting the nonstop route from the 2ndary city. This does not mean the 2ndary city can not support non-stop flights (or additional non-stops in the PDX-NYC example). This is also where ,in perfect competition, a competitor jumps in to the market.

Cheers! Nondo
 
kwbl
Posts: 425
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 11:55 am

RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Sat Mar 13, 2004 12:50 am

I may have been a bit high in my estimation on the SEA nonstops. Granted, I was looking at the summer schedule where JetBlue & DL are each adding a flight and I think CO is adding 2-I thought AA was adding one as well but could be wrong. Another example of how airlines "miss" the mark: SEA is admittedly a huge market but for periods of time in the last 5-10 years, they have not even had nonstops to such places as Orlando, Boston, Miami. They are still lacking BWI, FLL, MSY and based on the # of daily passengers in those markets, could easily support the nonstops. If it wee not for Alaska having an eastward mindset, I am pretty sure CO / KMCO), USA - Florida">MCO, & MIA would not have NS flights from SEA
 
airNondo
Posts: 237
Joined: Sun May 14, 2000 2:09 pm

RE: PDX Updates Anyone? FRA, Mexico

Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:48 am

Oops, in my post 2 up, " there would need to be 4-5 daily non-stops PDX-SEA in winter alone" should read 'PDX-NYC', not 'PDX-SEA'.

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Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos