SInGAPORE_AIR
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Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Fri Mar 12, 2004 8:06 am

Singapore Airlines Limited's new vice-president for the South West Pacific region - Paul Tan - has said that it is time for the Singaporean and Australian governments to resume open skies negotiations - in particular SYD - LAX.

He said that the aviation sector was approaching the normalcy that the Australian Minister for Transport (and arguably Qantas) referred to last year. "Things are better. Qantas has made a profit, we have turned around our losses in the first quarter to show a profit. I think most airlines are reporting better loads, so its good indicators that things are going well."

Last year, passenger growth to Australia on Singapore Airlines flights grew 12%. We have a pretty strong marketing outfit on the West Coast of the USA, in Los Angeles. We believe we can help bring in people to Australia."

Unsurprisingly, the Australian Minister’s spokesman disagreed. “We said we wanted more steadiness in the international aviation sector, and I don't think anybody really says that it's completely steady right now. We're only just (past) SARS and bird flu and a number of airlines are still in a very tricky position. A decision on that was made basically yesterday and you can't keep looking at these things every few months, it's a medium- to longer-term issue rather than a short-term issue."

Meanwhile, to take advantage of unrestricted landing access to Australian destinations, Singapore Airlines will increase flights. MEL services will increase thrice weekly to 19 a week in September 2004 – taking total flights between Singapore and Australia to 70 a week by OAG’s Airline of the Year 2004. The Airline will also celebrate 20 years of service to BNE and ADL.

More information at The Australian website.

Information was rephrased with the exception of quotes from humans.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3230
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RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Fri Mar 12, 2004 8:44 am


In their dreams will they get SYD-LAX approval.
 
scottysair
Posts: 6442
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RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:10 am

Yep! It will able make get approval for SYD-LAX flight soon.
 
Marara
Posts: 634
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RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:16 am

Should be interesting, specially with NZ rumoured to return to the route this year.
I like work: it fascinates me. I can sit and look at it for hours. Jerome K Jerome
 
PVD757
Posts: 3063
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RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:36 am

Gee, I think BA would get cabotage in the US before this happens. Sorry, but this has a very slim chance of getting approval, especially with the A345 service that goes between SIN and LAX now.
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3230
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RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:44 am

PVD - SQ is the 2nd biggest International uplifter out of Australia after Qantas and they would love to get on this route. A daily SQ service would be a huge thorn in QF's side and would be highly profitable for them. Not to mention that UAL could codeshare with them and when faced with a choice between UAL and SQ on the same route who are going to choose?????? NOT UAL!!!!!

The A340-500 direct service is targeting a different market than a SYD-LAX service would.

 
nickofatlanta
Posts: 1274
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RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:54 am

I think SQ should be allowed to fly this route. QF gets a lot out of SIN. Equal the equation. More importantly, from a consumers' point of view, bring more competition to the current duopoly of QF and UA transpacific from Aus to USA. There is a very good reason for why fares from North America to Australia are equal to or more than fares from Europe to Australia even though a flight from LHR-SYD is longer than from SYD-JFK!
 
zonks
Posts: 156
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RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:15 am

The thing is, what would QF and other Australian carriers get out of this if SQ was allowed to operate Australia - US services? Yes, QF already gets a lot out of SIN, so SQ & CAAS don't really have much to bargain with. There is no way that CAAS would take back QF's fifth freedom rights from SIN. After QF could then move its operations to BKK or KUL, hitting CAAS where it matters most: in its wallet.

I think there is little to no incentive for Australian authorities to allow SQ to operate Australia - US services.
 
Qantasclub
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RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:17 am

I say let it rip with decent competition: SQ would be great competitor on this route with QF-forget about UAL and ANZ-they will not survive on this route should SQ enter. Qantas will defend this route aggressively given that it represents a huge slice of their profits, and judging by US-OZ traffic lately, there seems to be alot more room for capacity.
Long Haul is the only way to go
 
Ex_SQer
Posts: 1351
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RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:20 am

Spot on, Zonks. The CAAS has given away too much too early in its eagerness to develop SIN as a hub. The same can be said about the UK-Singapore bilateral.
 
aviasian
Posts: 1244
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 8:11 am

RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:28 am

Zonks is spot-on in saying that SIA and CAAS has little to bargain with. After all, Qantas has already tonnes of rights to and through Singapore.

It is all about decency and addressing an inbalance that dates back all the way to the 1930s when Qantas Empire Airways was given beyond rights to Singapore. This tiny nation has never flinched at granting QEA and Qantas ever more rights . . .

When will Qantas EVER feel that it is steady enough for some real and fair competition? Never, I suspect. In the meantime, SIA can continue to see itself shut out of trans-Pacific via Australia and trans-Atlantic via London.

At the end of the day, Australian and British travellers will benefit from a greater choice of services - they could choose to boycott the new entrant out of sheer patriotism or other personal considerations.

KC Sim
Bangkok
 
aussie747
Posts: 1005
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:15 pm

RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:22 pm

Should Air NZ hop back in the route I doubt SQ would operate. Three Star Alliance Carriers on the one route (I don't think so).

 
Shenzhen
Posts: 1666
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RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:14 pm

If the 7E7 is actually launched, and with a 8500 nmi range for the base/200 seater, we could see a whole lot of competition in the N. America / Australia market through fragmentation.

How many N. American carriers have/or will have rights to fly to Australia?

Cheers
 
QANTASpower
Posts: 515
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RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:46 pm

How nice .. all our Singaporean members think their majority Government owned monopoly should be able to cherry pick QF's most profitable route. How precious of you all  Yeah sure

Just to let you know it has no chance in hell of ever coming through unless QF takes its stake in ANZ.

And in any case your airline is not so special anymore. In fact it is quite ordinary.

QANTASpower




 
chrisrad
Posts: 967
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RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:01 pm

I would welcome SQ on a SYD-LAX, or even better MEL-LAX route. The competition between SQ AND QF no doubt would be a bonus to all travelers to the US.
And in any case your airline is not so special anymore. In fact it is quite ordinary and when was Qantas ever special to begin with???
Welcome aboard Malaysia Airlines! Winner of Best Cabin Staff 2001,2002,2003,2004,2007,2009,2012
 
easyjet
Posts: 60
Joined: Sat May 05, 2001 6:27 pm

RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:22 pm

I agree with Chrisrad and Qantasclub. Competition is good for the consumer. Think of it, there is no real need to "protect" a route if an airline is capable of defending itself. Unless it's not capable of doing so, then perhaps it should improve itself by offering better service and price!!

Get a grip.....non of us owns Qantas Airways. Why get so agitated, spiteful and defensive?
 
Ex_SQer
Posts: 1351
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 5:43 am

RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:16 am

Should Air NZ hop back in the route I doubt SQ would operate.
Nope, the NZ-SQ relationship has been strained ever since NZ blocked SQ from taking over 50% of AN.
 
FoxBravo
Posts: 2769
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:34 pm

RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:46 am

Shenzhen, we have an Open Skies agreement with Australia, so theoretically any U.S. airline could fly there if they wanted to.

While this is obviously an issue for the Australians and Singaporeans to work out amongst themselves, I think most of us Americans would have no problem with SQ injecting some much-needed competition on the U.S.-Australia routes. And I can't imagine the U.S. government would object either. However, as others have pointed out, I see little incentive for the Australian government--which does have an interest in protecting its own carriers--to allow SQ to compete. Unless, of course, Singapore threatened to withdraw QF's rights between Singapore and Europe, but I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon...
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
jupiter2
Posts: 1163
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RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:47 am

If UA go under and no other carrier form the US picks up the route SQ may get the rights, otherwise I believe it will be a long time before it would happen.
The problem for SQ if the Singapore govt was to block QF's onward rights if it came to that, would be the retaliation from the Australian govt.
If QF was banned from the onward flights then you could bet that SQ would suffer worse than QF, simply because all that SQ would get would be reciprocal rights. QF would only serve SIN to what the market would actually require, maybe a 747 from SYD and MEL, a 767 from PER and BNE, no oncarriage rights at all. SQ would get the same, including the banning of carrying passengers beyond SIN. QF could always route their European flights through another Asian city, an inconvienence but no great loss, SQ on the other hand go from offering some 1200 seats a day from SYD to SIN to 400 and they have o be going to SIN, ouch.
So for everyone who believes that SIN has given away too much to the likes of Australia and the UK, please remember those all important oncarriage rights, they are what keeps SQ going.
RL
 
aaway
Posts: 1292
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RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Sat Mar 13, 2004 9:11 am

I've heard suggestions that QF be given reciprocal rights to fly transpac from Singapore if SQ is given AUS - U. S. rights. Could this be a bone of contention as well? The Singaporean market would be insignificant (w/o 5th freedom rights) for QF vis-a-vis the AUS-U. S. market for SQ?
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
767er
Posts: 821
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 2:24 pm

RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Sat Mar 13, 2004 9:46 am

I very much doubt NZ will re-enter SYD LAX in the immediate future. They just do not have the aircraft and what with no Star Alliance domestic carrier within Australia , it would not be worth their while.
Aircraft flown:F27,Viscount. EMB120, SAAB340, ATR70, 737-200.737-300,DC8, DC10,747-100,747-200,747-300,747-400, A320, A3
 
nickofatlanta
Posts: 1274
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 1:06 am

RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Sat Mar 13, 2004 11:40 am

Why do people get so patriotic about the airline industry? Just think, regularly, you consume / use stuff from multiple countries. You may:
- drink Coca-Cola (US company)
- bank with HSBC (UK company)
- stay at a Bass hotel (UK company)
- use an Optus cell phone (Singaporean company)
- buy medicine made by GlaxoSmithKline (UK company)
There are so many foreign companies operating in the Australian - and many other - economies and competing with domestic companies. I am all for foreign airlines being able to compete and provide choice for the consumer whether it be SQ from Aus to USA, VS from HKG to Aus or CX from LHR to JFK.

To say that QF is not stable is a joke. They are on of the most profitable airlines in the world - and in a time of supposed crisis!
 
Gemuser
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Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Sat Mar 13, 2004 1:39 pm

Gees what a mis informed thread! Taking the points in no particular order:

Fox Bravo - There is a US/Oz Open Skys agreement??? There IS NOT and wont be until you open your beef and sugar markets to competition. According to all press reports I have seen, Aviation is NOT even mentioned in the US/Oz Free Trade Agreement, just negotiated. The full text has not yet even been released, yet.

Aviasian (& others) - The current Oz - SIN bi lateral treaty is actually biased in SIN's favor, so SIN really, really has nothing to offer to get fifth freedom rights. I gather you think QF got the fifth freedom right for nothing? Don't you believe it! SIN got sixth freedom rights Oz - Europe, and I'll bet that's worth at least, if not more than QF's fifth freedom.

While I am in favor of compertation I am not in favor of it coming from a majority government owned, monopoly. To me that is basically unfair!

I am not convinced that SYD-LAX (or SFO/SEA/YVR/etc) service would be all that profitable to any new airline. It takes two B744's to operate a daily service and because of time windows there is not a lot of room for creative scheduling. In fact I think it would only be profitable to an airline that fits the description in the paragraph above.
If not why do we only have one US carrier? (HA does not count for this discussion, because they don't offer OZ-west coast, non stop services).

As I have said in other threads this is a loooong thin market, it is hard to make money on and unless you have to be in it, you can usually find easier ways to make money.

Qantasclub - DO NOT write off the Kiwis! NZ will be the last airline standing on the South Pacific, what ever happens! Why? Simple, they have no where else to go, it is their home turf, even more so than QF. We have seen that the NZ government will not let NZ go under, I don't think that will ever change for very good economic/stragic reasons.


Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
krisworldB777
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2000 10:28 pm

Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:31 pm

Some interesting points have been raised above, some pertinent to the real argument and some not.

As any Australian knows, the government and most of the Australian regulatory bodies are keen to have increased competition with the objective of driving prices down and hence increasing the number of tourists into Australia. There is little doubt that Singapore Airlines will eventually get the rights, it is rather a case of when, not if. With Australia faced with the frightening predicament of having a Latham government by the year’s end, SIA could be getting the rights far sooner than many of you think.

I would remind you that Qantas isn’t overly concerned about competition from SIA on the route. Indeed they realise that fares and loads will fall, but this will mainly be seen up the back with the lower-yielding leisure passengers on their annual vacation. Of course they’ll fight against it until Dixon’s red face turns purple but in reality, as Dixon well knows, he’s just procrastinating which is actually working.

In today’s aviation world, it is exceptionally important not to underestimate the power of alliances, particularly on business travellers. Across the Pacific, you will find that the majority of high-yielding passengers rate their frequent flyer point accumulation as an important factor in their choice of airline and these are the important people when it comes to winning the bread and paying the bills. As long as there is no star alliance airline in Australia, Australian business travellers will continue to patronise Qantas. It is United Airlines that will be hurt, and badly too.

Whilst so many of you are quick to run to the aid of Singapore and claim injustice after injustice, remember that Qantas has been an instrumental factor in getting Changi going as a true air hub, bringing many billions of dollars into the economy. The Singapore Government, in line with their entrepreneurial genius, rightly saw Changi’s air-hub status as being a more important factor for the whole nation as well as shaping SIA into a global force, which they are.

The times ahead will no doubt be interesting. However, I’m always sceptical of the ACCC’s extraordinarily linear approach to business and the airline industry in particular. But alas, I think SIA’s presence on the route, provided frequencies are limited, won’t be a bad thing for Australia and for Americans alike.


 
us330
Posts: 3442
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2000 7:00 am

RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:38 pm

I say give SQ the rights to SYD-LAX when and only when they become a publicly traded company and not majority owned by the Singaporean government.
 
Qantasclub
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:48 pm

RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Sat Mar 13, 2004 7:21 pm

Qantasclub - DO NOT write off the Kiwis! NZ will be the last airline standing on the South Pacific, what ever happens! Why? Simple, they have no where else to go, it is their home turf, even more so than QF. We have seen that the NZ government will not let NZ go under, I don't think that will ever change for very good economic/stragic reasons.

Gemuser: I'm afraid I don't share your optimism about this airline competing with QF, SQ, UA on SYD-LAX. Sure, it's survival is assured given it's government's support but it is destined to be a peripheral boutique carrier in the SW pacific without any meaningful impact following it's disasterous misadventures in an attempt to improve it's market share in Australia in recent years. ANZ has recently annouced plans to expand the other way-directly from it's shores to SFO which seems like a good move but SYD-LAX? Not for awhile, and certainly NOT if SQ comes in.
Long Haul is the only way to go
 
TBCITDG
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:17 am

RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Sun Mar 14, 2004 7:33 am

Gemuser,
I have to say that even though the NZ government has bailed out ANZ, it does not mean that the government will always support it financially.There is only so much that the government is willing to take on. If it means selling a stake in ANZ to whoever, then so be it, just as long as they don;t have to keep on giving them $$. (I don't see the point to this discussion, as ANZ have posted a profit)

The one thing that I don't understand is: Why should the AUS government provide this route to airlines lie SQ or even CX, when they won't even allow for the foreign cap to be raised as requested by QF.
I say let SQ and CX fly the AUS-US route, but at the same time allow for foreign capital to be injected into QF. . . Even out the playing field a little. Because at the end of the day, what does QF get in return while all these foreign airlines are free to operate wherever they want out of AUS??
 
Ex_SQer
Posts: 1351
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 5:43 am

RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Sun Mar 14, 2004 9:26 am

The current Oz - SIN bi lateral treaty is actually biased in SIN's favor, so SIN really, really has nothing to offer to get fifth freedom rights. I gather you think QF got the fifth freedom right for nothing? Don't you believe it! SIN got sixth freedom rights Oz - Europe, and I'll bet that's worth at least, if not more than QF's fifth freedom.

In the Singapore-Oz bilateral, sixth freedoms are not addressed. For all intents and purposes, SQ and QF compete for more or less the same pool of passengers between Oz and Europe - SQ's traffic is a mix of 4th and 6th (ex-Oz) freedom traffic, QF's is a mix of 4th and 5th (ex-SIN) traffic.

Sixth freedom rights are generally not negotiated, and even if they are, it would be hard to enforce them. In theory, therefore, the bilateral is actually biased in QF's favor because QF has a bunch of fifth freedom rights ex-SIN while SQ has none ex-Oz.

In reality, though, both carriers operate on more or less the same footing on the Kangaroo route because SIN's geographical position allows SQ to enjoy sixth freedoms. There is, theoretcially, nothing to prevent QF from carrying sixth freedom traffic ex-SIN, but its options are limited because of Australia's geographic position.

The bottom line is, until governments can come to some agreement on negotiating and enforcing sixth freedoms, the bilateral will continue to be viewed, rightly or wrongly, by many as being in QF's favor because of the fifth freedoms.
 
QANTASpower
Posts: 515
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2002 3:07 pm

RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:10 am

Singapore has been after this for years and it has been rejected time nd again by the AUS Govt. There is nothing in this for QF. They may as well give CAthay the right to fly one SYD - LAX per day in exchange for rights to fly to LHR from Hong Kong. At least QF will get something in return. Even though they shoud have this right in any case given that Cathay can carry as much Australia to Europe traffic as it wants to.

 
Sydscott
Posts: 3230
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Sun Mar 14, 2004 1:33 pm

Lets put this argument into perspective shall we.

Will SQ get the rights to fly from Syd-LAX. The answer is no. Why not???

1. QF gains nothing in return for allowing this to happen. If the Singapore government objects then QF can move its hub to Bangkok and resume services as normal.

2. UAL already flies the route for the Star Alliance. Why would SQ want to poach UAL's traffic??? UAL's Sydney services would have to be some of the most profitable in its network so its not as if they are going to withdraw from it. Plus they have an arrangement with DJ at this end for connecting traffic.

3. I cant see how 1 daily service by SQ will create more competition on this route. UAL flies daily to LAX and SFO, QF flies 3 times daily from Sydney, Daily from Melbourne, Daily from Auckland and soon 3 times a week from Brisbane. Thats 7 daily B747 flights with approximately 2730 seats, (assuming 390 seats per aircraft). SQ flying daily will add 390 seats, or an extra 14%, to the route. The market will grow by that in a couple of years anyway and its not as if SQ will start a price war with QF over the route because QF have the capacity and frequency on their side. Besides which I'm sure once UAL comes out of bankruptcy they will be a much stronger competitior to QF especially with the connections at LAX and SFO that they have.

4. Will SQ want to commit 2 747-400's to build a new route that will be marginally profitable at best, and at worst be a major source of red ink for them?? I doubt it. SQ wont act unless they have a domestic presence here in Australia or an interline agreement with DJ. Plus do you think UAL will be happy to take connecting traffic from an SQ flight that is competing with them?? I dont think so.

Latham becoming Prime Minister wont automatically give SQ rights for Syd-Lax. QF had been on the nose with Canberra in the past but Geoff Dixon has put the relationship right. Plus with James Packer on the QF board do you think Latham will give them rights without a huge amount of consulting with QF??? I think not.

It's academic anyway. I'm sure the Australian government would rather see Richard Branson start services between SYD-LAX before SQ.
 
TBCITDG
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:17 am

RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:25 pm

I am not too sure as to wether this may play an effect, but would the route be proffitable for SQ seeing as they would fly to an AA hub??
What about the issues of slots, etc?
Can someone fill me in ?
 
Ken777
Posts: 9376
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:40 pm

The interesting comment is that any US carrier can start flights between the US and Australia. When Richard Branson gets his Virgin US LLC going what is to stop him from using it to fly the route? There is also talk about Virgin getting Australia to Asia flights. All of these coming together would bring a Virgin Alliance to a position of providing flights around the world, which would drive a few airline execs nuts!
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3230
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

RE: Time To Reopen SYD - LAX Negotiations: SIA

Sun Mar 14, 2004 3:06 pm


Ken - Your exactly right. Now that Virgin Blue is flying Internationally it would be easy for them to start an Australia-US service, although I think its unlikely given their current problem with Etops and their desire to stay a single aircraft type operator. However I'm sure they could do a deal with Virgin Atlantic which would allow them to use the Australian Air Rights and operate a Virgin Atlantic Aircraft on the route. A joint venture between Virgin LCC in the US and DJ down here could provide a viable 3rd competitior for the route.

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