klwright69
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DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?

Sun Mar 14, 2004 12:02 pm

We have discussed already how NWA has started DEN-LAX in retaliation for F9 starting LAX-MSP.

I travel in this market so I keep up on things.

The question is, no flights can be found for this market at NWA website after the end of August. I even called NWA reservations, and the agent could not give me any information and assumed the flights just weren't loaded in yet. But I called several weeks ago, and still nothing. Something is not right. Already going away maybe? hummm....
 
MAH4546
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RE: DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?

Sun Mar 14, 2004 1:44 pm

It is still happening.

The flights will only operate until 31 August 2004.
a.
 
klwright69
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RE: DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?

Sun Mar 14, 2004 3:10 pm

Yes, I know they are currently operating. Just seems kind of silly just to enter a market, operate it for a few months, then hightail it out.
 
klwright69
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RE: DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?

Sun Mar 14, 2004 3:20 pm

No, no correction here. The LAX-DEN NWA service has yet to begin. It starts April 4 I think. I think this might be a first. A route is being discontinued before it has even begun. Amazing
 
NLINK
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RE: DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?

Sun Mar 14, 2004 3:49 pm

It could be PARS/worldspan hasnt gotten the updated schedule from NW yet, which this is common on new routes and it defaults back to the old schedule which DENLAX was not in
 
AirframeAS
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RE: DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?

Sun Mar 14, 2004 4:37 pm

Keyword here: retaliation
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
Mizzou65201
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RE: DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?

Sun Mar 14, 2004 6:00 pm

My NW e-Timetable confirms:

NW 959 Lv DEN 10:30a Ar LAX 11:50a
NW 960 Lv LAX 11:45a Ar DEN 3:00p
NW 961 Lv DEN 4:00p Ar LAX 5:20p
NW 962 Lv LAX 6:00p Ar DEN 9:15p

All service scheduled on A320 a/c. Begin 04Apr, End 31Aug.

 
klwright69
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RE: DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?

Mon Mar 15, 2004 1:38 am

Yes, yes, yes. That is what I thought. An end to the service is announced before it even commences.

Can someone here tell us about any other routes that have ended before it even beginning?

Anyone?
 
Guest

RE: DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?

Mon Mar 15, 2004 1:49 am

Yes, yes, yes. That is what I thought. An end to the service is announced before it even commences.

Huh? The flights will operate for the summer season only, as originally planned... there haven't been any changes.
 
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mariner
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RE: DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?

Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:04 am

IndustrialPate:

Am I missing something? Here is the original NWA press release announcing the service:

http://www.nwa.com/corpinfo/newsc/2003/pr121820031257.html

I can't see anything about "summer only" service, and I don't remember any announcement since the one linked above.

Just because I don't remember it doesn't mean it didn't happen, of course.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
Guest

RE: DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?

Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:12 am

Mariner,
The flights were never loaded beyond August into the reservations system...
 
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mariner
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RE: DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?

Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:27 am

IndustrialPate:

Yes, I guess that's clear. But I think, then, that you can understand the confusion - there was no actual announcement of "summer only" service?

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
klwright69
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RE: DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?

Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:29 am

Huh? Check out
http://www.nwa.com/corpinfo/newsc/2003/pr121820031257.html
Where is the seasonal part as "originally planned?"

"The flights were never loaded beyond August into the reservations system..."

Exactly! The flights have not even begun yet and they have already gotten the ax.

If it is seasonal that means it will be coming back right? Where is that information?
 
MAH4546
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RE: DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?

Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:37 am

Guys, airlines very often never say a new service is seasonal. It is a very common practice. Just check go to AA's website and look at how they never mention new service is seasonal.

One reason is to test demand to see if it can go year-round. When AA announced MIA-LIR a few months ago, they never once mentioned it was seasonal, even though it was. Demand was strong, so they made it year-round.
a.
 
Guest

RE: DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?

Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:43 am

Where is the seasonal part as "originally planned?"

The press release was issued a week before the flights were available for purchase... this very, very rarely happens and implies it was done rather quickly, so I’m not surprised it doesn’t contain detailed information.

Exactly! The flights have not even begun yet and they have already gotten the ax.

Again, what the hell does that mean? The flights are available for purchase & service is expected to begin in about six weeks… claiming the flights have gotten the ax before they’ve begun implies service will not inaugurate at all (e.g. DL offering PDX-KIX for sale for several months, then dropping service shortly before it was to begin). When NW adds seasonal service, the flights are added into their reservation systems on a seasonal basis, like these. When NW adds year-round service, they’re added into the system on a year-round basis. In the past, NW’s added seasonal service then extended it to year-round when they’ve performed well… it’s still too early to judge the DEN-LAX flights.

If it is seasonal that means it will be coming back right? Where is that information?

Not always. Some seasonal service (e.g. NRT-ANC, GCM, etc.) is evaluated on a year-to-year basis. That information won't be available for awhile.
 
klwright69
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RE: DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?

Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:10 am

The flights have not even begun yet and they have already gotten the ax."

The flights are beginning in April (not currently operating) and ending in August. It appears to be discontinued. Of course, they might be reinstated. That is what I meant.

I called reservations several weeks ago to book flights way in advance. The agent did not say they are being discontinued, but she had no idea why there were no flights. She didn't say it was seasonal either. She was totally confused.

DEN-LAX is a huge very highly travelled domestic market with consistent year round traffic. Some people fly between the two cities every week. It just seems like an odd choice for a temporary little trial run. All the seasonal routes described and discussed in the above post are the exact opposite of the DEN-LAX market. They are usually international flights, often long hauls, that are not super competitive.

"Again, what the hell does that mean?"
Isn't that kind of rude? I am just asking a question and making an observation.
 
MAH4546
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RE: DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?

Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:15 am

. It just seems like an odd choice for a temporary little trial run.

No it doesn't. Northwest knows very well that thier two daily flights most likely:

1) Make little, if any, money
2) Be going out pretty empty, probably 40% LF at best

All it is is a scare tactic against Frontier Airlines.
a.
 
klwright69
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RE: DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?

Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:38 am

Well, I am just disappointed those great fares are leaving with them!

Gasp!

I doubt F9 is scared. Obviously NW is not serious about LAX-DEN.
 
alphascan
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RE: DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?

Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:41 am

I'd be surprised to see the NW DEN/LAX service last through August. I remember once when AA initiated MSP/LAX in the late 80s, NW retaliated with DFW/LAX. It was a disaster for AA (with NW doing better on the DFW flights than AA on the MSP flights because of Asian feed) and the flights were discontinued by both carriers after a very brief period. I think NW may be looking back to that time and thinking that a similar scenario will occur.

If F9 sticks with the MSP/LAX flights through May, I look for NW to admit defeat and utilize the Airbii on more lucrative routes. If F9 drops the service earlier, look for NW to exit DEN/LAX even sooner.

I don't, however, think F9 will drop the service. Their MSP/DEN service continually has the highest or nearly the highest load factors in their system. F9 has quietly grown from two 737 flights a day in the market to 3 319s and one 70 seat RJ over the past year and a half. They have already gained a loyal following in the MSP market, with their low fares and superior coach class service vs. NW and UA.

NW will have to depend heavily on Asian originating traffic to fill those DEN/LAX seats as they did for the DFW/LAX service that was short lived. With Asian mega-competitor UA also in the market, I just don't see it happening. NW traffic will be spill at best for DEN originating passengers. I have no idea how well they will penetrate the LAX originating passengers which they will desperately need to fill seats.

NW lost its chance to defend against F9 four years ago when they looked the other way on their two flights a day. Then F9 CEO Sam Addoms came to town to testify against NW in an anti-trust case (think it pertained to Sun Country or Reno Air) and NW never was as brilliantly aggressive vs F9 as they usually are against most hub trespassers.

I expect that loyal following in the MSP market to make the difference for F9's success.

That being said, I do remember a post by a F9 employee saying the first two F9 MSP/LAX flights were booked at "0" about four weeks ago. Those flights are on Easter Sunday though. It would be interesting to get an update on bookings.



"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
 
klwright69
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RE: DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?

Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:45 am

Their loads will depend on how many seats they allocated at such rock-bottom fares!
 
SCRAMJET
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RE: DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?

Mon Mar 15, 2004 6:38 am

It's quite common for an airline to cancel service before it starts. UA announced ORD-DEL service and never started it. NW announced DTW-MAD and canceled it before it began...

As for DEN-LAX, it hasn't necessarily been canceled yet, but might just be in till August 31 for the time being to see how the flights perform?
 
klwright69
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RE: DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?

Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:10 am

Well, I DO believe NW will start the service.
 
MAH4546
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RE: DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?

Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:52 am

Another example of this practice is AA's new ORD-SMF service.

Ends 31 October 2004. Nowhere in the PR did is specify an end date, because if the service does well, it will continue.
a.
 
norjet
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RE: DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?

Mon Mar 15, 2004 12:33 pm

Don't forget NW's mini-hub at RNO when Reno Air began MSP-RNO service back in the mid-90s. NW was going to fly SEA-RNO-LAX with 722s. Got into their printed schedules and res computers but never actually flew.

I also have a NW system timetable with the services out of MDW that they were going to run after their acquisition of Midway mk1. Also never happened...

--Scott
Publishing travel advice for adopting families - to justify being an airline geek
 
klwright69
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RE: DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?

Mon Mar 15, 2004 1:04 pm

The responses in this thread are interesting. But I clearly misnamed this thread. I do think this service will start as planned and will happen. I was just perplexed and disappointed since it seems like they only wanted to operate the route briefly.
 
DTWINTLFLYER
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RE: DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?

Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:04 am

Excuse me for what will be a long post, but .....let's not miss the first obvious fact...the press release (dated DEC) says the flights will BEGIN in April. They are in the schedule to operate through the last day of August. I don't think it is surprising, as September is when the loads begin to fall off with school starting. And no, these flights will not go out 40 percent full.....I think for what NW wants to do (and it is an experiment after all), in the end it will be a success. If it does work well, does it mean we'll keep it, who knows, but it is something new.

The following schedules are ALL taken on 25JUNE


DEN LAX
NW 959 DENLAX 1030A1150A A320
NW 961 DENLAX 400P 520P A319


NW 960 LAXDEN 1145A 300P A319
NW 962 LAXDEN 600P 915P A320

These of course are in addition to ...
MSP DEN

1.NW 559 MSPDEN 700A 808A A320
2.NW 561 MSPDEN 900A1006A 757
3.NW 557 MSPDEN 1120A1228P A320
4.NW 555 MSPDEN 1255P 203P A319
5.NW 549 MSPDEN 220P 315P A319
6.NW 551 MSPDEN 305P 413P A319
7.NW 563 MSPDEN 450P 553P A320
8.NW 553 MSPDEN 640P 743P A320
9.NW 547 MSPDEN 855P 958P 757
and of course DEN-MSP return


DTW DEN
NW1224 DENDTW 755A1252P 757
NW1226 DENDTW 1120A 406P 757
NW1220 DENDTW 315P 804P A319
NW1222 DENDTW 434P 923P A319
and return flights

LAX MKE
1 NW 984 LAXMKE 530P1121P 319
and return

LAX MEM
1 NW 176 LAXMEM 740A 115P 319
2 NW 180 LAXMEM 1254P 630P 320
and return



I think a nice comparison is to look at another major and see what they do on nonstop from LAX DEN

AA
1 AA1398 LAXDEN 630A 949A M80
2 AA1458 LAXDEN 1145A 306P M80
3 AA 678 LAXDEN 333P 656P M80
4 AA1490 LAXDEN 700P1020P M80
and return


NOW....
Because it IS hub to hub, you would expect UA to have a significant number of nonstops from LAX and they do.....

1.UA1296 LAXDEN 600A 918A 757
2.UA1254 LAXDEN 655A1010A 735
3.UA1194 LAXDEN 800A1118A 757
4.UA 908 LAXDEN 905A1224P A320
5.UA 362 LAXDEN 1045A 204P A320
6.UA1190 LAXDEN 1120A 242P 763
7.UA 252 LAXDEN 1245P 403P 757
8.UA 630 LAXDEN 200P 520P 735
9.UA1154 LAXDEN 220P 538P A320
10.UA 496 LAXDEN 345P 655P 757
11.UA 326 LAXDEN 444P 755P 757
12. UA 504 LAXDEN 600P 917P 733
13.UA1175 LAXDEN 745P1054P A320
and of course return...


And finally let's look at our friends at F9

1 F9 621 LAXDEN 645A 955A 319
2 F9 401 LAXDEN 900A1210P 319
3 F9 444 LAXDEN 1055A 205P 319
4 F9 426 LAXDEN 300P 610P 319
5 F9 407 LAXDEN 455P 805P 320
6 F9 416 LAXDEN 800P1110P 319

Any questions......
 
frntman
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RE: DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?

Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:51 am

Any questions......

5 F9 407 LAXDEN 455P 805P 320


Hmmmm........this is being operated with a 320? All my figures show this as a 319, but then again, there has been discussions of F9 taking some 320 options.



 
Guest

RE: DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?

Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:12 pm

Don't forget NW's mini-hub at RNO...

If NW hadn't been forced to drop their plans to open a mini-hub at RNO, they probably would've gone ahead with their plans...

I also have a NW system timetable with the services out of MDW that they were going to run after their acquisition of Midway mk1...

Because NW cancelled the merger less than 24 hours before it was to be complete... NW was more-or-less interested in Midway for its aircraft and employees to expand its own network, not because they wanted Midway's MDW and PHL operations...
 
nwa man
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RE: DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?

Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:33 pm

AA's presence on the route is another interesting variable in this case. I see they fly several hundred daily seats in this market - how do they fill them, with no feed at DEN and very little feed on the LAX side of the operation.

Do they have corporate contracts on this route? How are they able to maintain this route, both in number of passengers and profitability? (AA's LAX-DEN has been around for at least a year and a half- I remember the (full) flight from a NW trip to DEN across the hall.)

Thanks-


N-Dub
Create your own luck.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DEN-LAX On NWA Still Happening?

Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:40 pm

AA has been on DEN-LAX since the late 90's. This was a transition of a former Reno Airlines flight. They used to fly DEN-SJC, but that was cut post-9/11. AA does have significant connection opportunities out of LAX. To/through LAX to all the major Hawaiian Islands - HNL, OGG, LIH, KOA....AA), Japan">NRT starting in April, and many other smaller Eagle markets in California, plus the large O&D between the two markets.