jeckPDX
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Delta's fleet of 777s is rather small compared to...

Sat Mar 20, 2004 6:40 pm

I have noticed that Delta's fleet of 777s is rather small compared with other US majors. I also read that all 777s on order will be leased out or sold. Why is Delta taking this route with the 777? Are they not happy with the aircraft, or is it another reason? I remeber hearing something awhile back about pilot unions and the 777 contract but that was years ago. Any information would be great!

Thanks!
JeckPDX
"Beer is proof that God Loves us and wanted People to be Happy" - Ben Franklin
 
ConcordeBoy
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Delta's fleet of 777s is rather small compared to...

Sun Mar 21, 2004 4:43 am

I have noticed that Delta's fleet of 777s is rather small compared with other US majors

DL originally planned to have 30+

They had to settle for 13, now it's 8.



Are they not happy with the aircraft, or is it another reason?

They love the aircraft, but they cannot afford to pay what DALPA wants to operate them.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
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coronado
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RE: Delta's Fleet Of 777s Is Rather Small Compared To...

Sun Mar 21, 2004 7:07 am

Could Delta and NWA work out some kind of joint venture (revenue splitting agreement similar to NW/KL on the AMS runs) on the ATL NRT route using some of their extra NWA 742's after these are upgraded with the new WBC seating?. This would allow DL to dispose of this mini fleet?
The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
 
TokyoNarita
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RE: Delta's Fleet Of 777s Is Rather Small Compared To...

Sun Mar 21, 2004 7:14 am

ATL NRT route using some of their extra NWA 742's

Not this NW NRT-ATL stuff again..

It would be very tough city pair for B747-200. The regular B742 wont make it. Even with P&W 7R4G2 engines it will kill payload with fuel stop on the way back.




[Edited 2004-03-20 23:20:51]
 
phollingsworth
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RE: Delta's Fleet Of 777s Is Rather Small Compared To...

Sun Mar 21, 2004 8:20 am

I don't know why people seem to think that just because they are canceling or selling off orders, DL would want to eliminate the remainder of their fleet of 8. Many other airlines operate fleets of less than 8 aircraft. They might want to sell their current ones off, but then again, given where they are using them, my guess is that the load factor/route combination makes the remaining 8 attractive. Further as long as they have them in the fleet they can potentially in-source maintenance on other RR powered 772s. This is a potential revenue stream. Further, DL owns all 8 of the 772s; therefore, they can potentially be used to borrow money against, or may be they already have. Depending on the status of loans and the like it may make more sense for DL to keep them, settle the pilot pay problem, and then increase their fleet.
 
behramjee
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RE: Delta's Fleet Of 777s Is Rather Small Compared To...

Sun Mar 21, 2004 9:42 am

There are many reasons why DLs B 777 fleet is way smaller than AAs and UALs :

1. DL ordered the B 777 much later than these 2 airlines did and during this phase suffered an acute financial crisis which has resulted in them selling off any remaining B 777s on order.

2. DLs hubs of ATL-JFK and CVG are not as popular for O & D traffic on a whole (except for JFK) where as UAL and AA have intl hubs at MIA-JFK-LAX-SFO-ORD-IAD and DFW. All these cities warrant larger aircraft to key cities around the world nonstop with B 744s (UAL) and B 772s (UAL+AA) as there is a lot of O&D traffic + transit traffic. However for DL, a lot of ppl flying them transatlantic or transpacific to and from ATL and CVG, more often than not take a connecting flight to another city hence the smaller B 763ER is used a lot transatlantic than the B 777 is!!!

3. DL has over a 100+ B 767s and around the same B 757s. The B 767s capacity is ideal for a majority of its transcontinental high demand routes as well as long haul intl routes transatlantic. The B 777s are mainly used on routes where demand is huge for O&D + transit traffic combined like LGW-MAN-FRA-CDG-AMS-AA), Japan">NRT from ATL and JFK.
 
Thrust
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RE: Delta's Fleet Of 777s Is Rather Small Compared To...

Sun Mar 21, 2004 9:47 am

We should be worrying more about Delta's survival right now, not the size of their 777 fleet.
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Delta's Fleet Of 777s Is Rather Small Compared To...

Mon Mar 22, 2004 7:10 am

DLs hubs of ATL-JFK and CVG are not as popular for O & D

Hmm, is that why ATL is the second largest O&D airport in the USA? Always wondered  Laugh out loud



DL ordered the B 777 much later than these 2 airlines did

DL and AA's initial orders were barely a year apart
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
bucky707
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RE: Delta's Fleet Of 777s Is Rather Small Compared To...

Mon Mar 22, 2004 7:58 am

"they love the aircraft, but cannot afford to pay what DALPA wants to operate them"

That is the biggest load of crap I have read on this forum. Is the 777 pay at Delta out of line? Yes. But, spread accross the 277 seats on a 777, the difference in pay between Delta and CAL or UAL is not a make or break issue. Delta never had more than 13 firm orders for the 777. There was some talk about more than that, but they never made the orders. The issue for the ones they do have on order but are defferring is financing. Right now they cannot get financing for these aircraft without paying very high rates.
 
LUV4JFK
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RE: Delta's Fleet Of 777s Is Rather Small Compared To...

Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:16 am

If Delta had a big presence in Asia as Northwest or United, I'm sure they would love to have more 777's. But, since their bread & butter internationally is Europe and they have a ton of 767's they can do the job from primarily the east coast cities like ATL, CVG, & JFK, the 777 is really not needed. Currently, they only really need it for their Tokyo flight from Atlanta, once a day. I'm sure they would love it if their 767's could make it to Tokyo.

LUV4JFK
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John F. Kennedy International Airport: Where America Greets The World.
 
behramjee
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RE: Delta's Fleet Of 777s Is Rather Small Compared To...

Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:52 am

I cant believe that ATL has a larger O&D mkt than LAX-SFO-ORD-DFW-MIA-IAD-EWR-BOS etc....esp ORD-LAX-SFO.

There are more ppl based in the areas mentioned above than in ATL.

ATL may get a lot of high yield O&D traffic with COCA COLA and CNN plus Turner Inc HQ'd there...but surely LAX-ORD get more O&D traffic than ATL which ConcordeBoy u claim is 2nd in USA for O&D!!!
 
papatango
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RE: Delta's Fleet Of 777s Is Rather Small Compared To...

Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:47 am

Bucky707 This info is from the ALPA site the comparison is for captains only. 777 AA 73% LESS THAN DL 767 AA 66% LESS THAN DL 757 AA 71% LESS THAN DL 737 AA 72% less than DL MD80 AA 63% less than DL. So for 5 aircraft types delta captain's pay averages almost 70% more than what AA pays. So don't tr y to tell us pilot pay is not an issue.
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: Delta's Fleet Of 777s Is Rather Small Compared To...

Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:05 am

ConcordeBoy-ATL is actually fourth in O&D travel...LAX, LAS, ORD are 1, 2, and 3 respectively, ATL is #4, and, in case anyone was wondering, the next three are MCO, PHX, and LGA...
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Delta's Fleet Of 777s Is Rather Small Compared To...

Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:32 am

I cant believe that ATL has a larger O&D mkt than

Why on Earth would I be concerned with what you can or cannot believe..?  Laugh out loud

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1383986/6/



ConcordeBoy-ATL is actually fourth in O&D travel...LAX, LAS, ORD are 1, 2, and 3 respectively, ATL is #4, and, in case anyone was wondering, the next three are MCO, PHX, and LGA...

Due to date, that may currently be the case, but tell it to First Equity (who typically posts their compiled findings long before the ACI does) not me  Big grin

[Edited 2004-03-22 03:34:28]
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
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yyz717
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RE: Delta's Fleet Of 777s Is Rather Small Compared To...

Mon Mar 22, 2004 3:23 pm

So for 5 aircraft types delta captain's pay averages almost 70% more than what AA pays. So don't tr y to tell us pilot pay is not an issue.

Papatango is right. The DL pilots are grossly overpaid.

AWST reported on March 1st the following 772 pay rates for captains:
AA $180/hour
CO $204/hour
DL $306/hour

For the 752:
DL $256/hour
NW $220/hour.
all other US carriers <$200/hr

For the 737:
DL $221/hr
Next highest CO $158/hour.

These are all for 12year captains.

This is insanity.

DL pilot wages should immed be rolled back 1/3. I feel like mailing this info to all shareholders.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
jessman
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RE: Delta's Fleet Of 777s Is Rather Small Compared To...

Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:24 am

The shareholders can do nothing about it. The Pilots have it in a CONTRACT. A contract is a contract. Leo taught them that. They have no legal need to give concessions. The contract is not to be amended for some time yet. A bankruptcy judge can void the contract with a swipe of a pen, but IF DL goes into Bankruptcy the stock price goes immediately to ZERO, thus the shareholders want this LESS than they want pilot concessions. The pilots know this.
SO, in conclusion FULL PAY TO THE LAST DAY!!!, I'll see you in the unemployment line the day after.  Smile
 
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yyz717
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RE: Delta's Fleet Of 777s Is Rather Small Compared To...

Tue Mar 23, 2004 8:31 am

With that attitude, perhaps DL should enter Chap 11.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
papatango
Posts: 380
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RE: Delta's Fleet Of 777s Is Rather Small Compared To...

Tue Mar 23, 2004 8:51 am

Yes and on top of that he /she is a Delta emp but not a pilot. It's a wonder Delta has survived this long with emp like this!
 
jessman
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RE: Delta's Fleet Of 777s Is Rather Small Compared To...

Tue Mar 23, 2004 11:12 am

I meant to put the wink smiley face. The point I was trying to make is that the shareholders can't do a darn thing about pilot costs. I have simply echoed every sentiment that the pilots have told us on the employee message boards.
Don't get me wrong, I would like to see the pilots give concessions and the company make money; not necessarily in that order. I DON'T think that Delta's financial problems are all the pilot's fault.
BTW it was not only pilot PAY issues that caused DL to not order more 777s, DAL and DAL ALPA did not see eye to eye on work rules either. They wanted the crew rest facilities installed for long haul flights, they were not content to have business elite seats reserved for them while they were off duty. They got it. DL reconfigured the three 777s for the ATL-NRT leg with the overhead crew rest facilities at great cost to DL. Every 777 under the new contract would have had to be redone. Understandably DL said forget it. It's an expense that will have to wait until DL is making money.
I do my part for DL. I sell their product, I sell their partners, I do what they ask when they ask me. They have changed my insurance, my sick time, my retirement plan, I don't care. They have consistently paid me and I get enough benefits to be happy about it.
HOWEVER, I did not start working for an airline with the notion that it afforded me any type of job security. Heck, Pan Am went under when I was a kid and that was really on my mind when I joined an airline. At the time they were making oodles of money and giving raises and such. I was barely working for DL a year when the pilots inked their current contract. It was 9 days before my two year anniversary that September 11th happened.
I have loved working for this company. I like most of the people that I work with. I don't expect things to go well in the near term with the rhetoric coming both from the pilots and from management. I hope Mr. Grinstein follows through with what he wants to do, but I am not optimistic that the problem of costs will be solved without chapter 11. I am not afraid of losing my job, as I have plans for most contingencies. I would be sad, but not shocked.
The most heated message board argument I got into was with a pilot who, when asked about the possibility of management going into bankruptcy to get concessions, threatened that ALPA could STRIKE! I ended up telling him that if he struck I would immediately search for a different job, so when he didn't have one maybe I would be the one making more money than him.
I just wanted to give you guys an idea of what mentality is coming from the pilots. Management is just as bad, but their sin is acting as if the current money-losing business model will work indefinitely. They may say that our biggest competition is from Low Cost Carriers, but actions speak louder than words and Delta is still trying to be all things to all people. If you don't believe me just check out the Delta board over at flyertalk. The FF program could not possibly get more convoluted. DL seems to have no direction. It is frustrating, give me something I can sell more than schedules. God knows the fares aren't any different than anyone else. I would love to tell someone something that makes Delta different. Where did the "Delta difference" go?, appearantly the same place as the "Delta family".
Once again, I want Delta to succeed. I wish no ill on any airline, especially not the one that pays me, but pilots are just the current convienient scapegoats; they are not the only problem. DL needs some good leadership so it can become a good airline again. I don't have all the answers. I will follow anyone with good ideas.

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