SHUPirate1
Topic Author
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 7:38 am

For an airline that seems to pride themselves on an extreme amount of aircraft utilization, I noticed in a Southwest timetable that they do not run a single red-eye flight. Obviously, this is a departure from the jetBlue method of having every plane in the air all night, to keep the planes earning revenue around the clock, and to save on parking fees. Could somebody please enlighten me on why Southwest chooses not to run a single red-eye flight?
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
SouthwestMDW
Posts: 296
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 9:39 am

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 7:44 am

In June of 2003 I was on a scheduled Southwest red-eye.

Southwest Airlines flight 2255
Phoenix-Chicago
Departs: 8:10pm
Arrives: 12:20am

According to their Summer Timetable.
 
COTXDFW777AA
Posts: 314
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 10:36 am

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 7:47 am

What routes would they fly them on? BWI-LAX that is only 2x day anyway.
Red-eyes are great but if you don't have high enough loads it is just more wear and tear on an aircraft. (a problem that is going to sneak up on Jetblue, those planes are going to very expensive to maintain very soon)

-COTXDFW777AA


Texas- it's like a whole different country!
 
S12PPL
Posts: 3603
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:26 am

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 7:47 am

I always thought a red eye flight flew all night and arrived the next morning....
Next Flights: 12/31 AS804 PDX-MCO 2/3 AS19 MCO-SEA QX2545 SEA-PDX
 
upsmd11
Posts: 642
Joined: Sat May 17, 2003 10:56 am

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 7:48 am

I would say that flight #2255 is not a true red-eye. A red-eye is one where you arrive and the sun is already coming up. Arriving in Chicago at 12:20am would still give you time to sleep in the Central Time Zone and wake up refreshed. What do others think?

John
 
S12PPL
Posts: 3603
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:26 am

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 7:53 am

I agree. This can't be a true red eye flight
Next Flights: 12/31 AS804 PDX-MCO 2/3 AS19 MCO-SEA QX2545 SEA-PDX
 
SHUPirate1
Topic Author
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 7:54 am

SouthwestMDW-I was referring to a flight that you got on at night, and got off the next morning, and your only chance to sleep was on the plane. Every single 737 that Southwest has RON's somewhere, and it seems like jetBlue doesn't have a single A-320 that RON's (although it's not true, obviously)
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
jetbluefan1
Posts: 2852
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:39 am

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 8:18 am

and it seems like jetBlue doesn't have a single A-320 that RON's (although it's not true, obviously)

It's not true, but a lot of planes are flying around on JetBlue for red-eyes:

LGB-JFK (1)
SAN-JFK (1)
ONT-JFK (1)
SMF-JFK (1)
OAK-JFK (1)
SJC-JFK (1) beginning in June
DEN-JFK (1)
SEA-JFK (1)
SLC-JFK (1)
LAS-JFK (2)
DEN-BOS (1)
LGB-BOS (1)
OAK-BOS (1) beginning in May
SMF-IAD (1) beginning in May
OAK-IAD (1)
LGB-IAD (1)
LGB-FLL (1)

So that's 18 red-eyes as on mid-June, and 19 if you include a 2:55am departure from SJU to JFK. But 19 planes flying around is not even half of JetBlue's fleet. But I guess it's pretty good to do as many planes get to rest while some are still out there taking in revenue.

JetBluefan1
 
Pe@rson
Posts: 16001
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 8:28 am

"I noticed in a Southwest timetable..."

On the Internet?

Flying during the night would be very much off-peak, therefore requiring incentives - i.e. low to very low prices - to make people fly. This would mean that yields on such flights would be low to very low. Would it really be worth it? Perhaps on long transcontinental flights, but otherwise probably not. Yes, it would increase aircraft utilisation, but if you have to substantially reduce your fares to attract passengers, then it probably would not be worth it. And then you have to have additional costs, like more maintainence...
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
deltaflyertoo
Posts: 1479
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 3:18 pm

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 8:35 am

I think I read on here once that the reason for that was because WN's planes are so utilized during the day, more so than most carriers that the fleet needs the night to rest and get proper maintenance checkups.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18100
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 8:58 am

Pe@rson:

Attitudes to red-eyes are abit different here in the US. For business people, if you have to get from LAX to NYC for a meeting, the easiest way is often a red-eye.

Any flight that leaves the West Coast in the morning doesn't arrive on the East Coast until much of the day is over.

TWA used to do terrific business with their coast to coast red-eyes, JetBlue does great with theirs, and little Frontier is getting in on the act.

In the case of Frontier, it's not even coast to coast, but DEN/BWI and DEN/LGA. Those flights are regularly sold out. They are starting a coast to coast with LAX/PHL.

They even have week-end red-eyes DEN/CUN which also do very, very well.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
SHUPirate1
Topic Author
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 8:59 am

Pe@rson-Southwest still prints timetables, and I flew over the weekend (ISP-PHL-RDU-IAD-PHL-ISP, with RDU-IAD-PHL on UA, and the rest on US) and the Southwest counter is right next to the US Airways counter at ISP, so I picked a timetable up there...
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
airxliban
Posts: 4285
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 12:14 pm

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:05 am

Red-eyes are great but if you don't have high enough loads it is just more wear and tear on an aircraft

COTx why is this the case? What difference does it make what time of day it is to a plane?
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10889
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:22 am

S12PPL,

Your right, a true red eye is a flight that leaves in the evening and arrives the next morning. I have flown red eyes from JFK-GRU. That is a true red eye. WN will not fly them because they probably won't fill them and make money.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
wgw2707
Posts: 1110
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:37 am

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:36 am

COTx why is this the case? What difference does it make what time of day it is to a plane?

I presume he meant that running red-eyes in addition to daytime flights puts more wear and tear on the airframe, which it does, of course. However it doesn't matter whether or not these flights are at night. The point is that it is just additional hours of service that otherwise would not be on the airframe.

-WGW2707

 
redngold
Posts: 6673
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2000 12:26 pm

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:41 am

I was on a red-eye one time, it was a Continental Airlines flight LAS-CLE... on a 757... left LAS at about 1:15 AM and arrived at CLE at about 7:30 AM. Argh! They're still running CO 580, it's now a 737-900 that departs LAS at 12:05 AM and arrives CLE at 6:56 AM.


redngold
Up, up and away!
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:45 am

There are some specific reasons WN doesn't schedule redeyes.

WN services the aircraft minimally during the workday, by the end of the day many of us have experienced a NASTY lav on a WN 737.

Also, WN schedules whatever 8 hour maintenance cycles they can on airframes overnight.

There was a good post on this once, I wish I could find it.

N
 
FoxBravo
Posts: 2767
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:34 pm

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:54 am

I also read somewhere that WN sometimes flies charters in the middle of the night (they rarely do them during the day).
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10889
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:00 am

Gigneil is right, plus WN flies a lot of short flights, they don't have flights from LAX-JFK and the like. So they couldn't really have a true red eye. I don't think they care, they are making mucho dinero with their current business model.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
txagkuwait
Posts: 1388
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 1999 7:39 am

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:25 am

WN is one of, if not the, biggest charter operator for domestic runs for the United States Dept of Defense. There was a running joke that they were boarding more passengers at Fort Hood's Robert Gray Army Airfield than they did out of their station at Corpus Christi. These military charters invariably run between midnight and 5 am so as not to interfere with their daily scheduled flights.

Southwest runs a whole bunch of Las Vegas charters too.
 
InnocuousFox
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:30 am

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:31 am

1) Red-eyes are only for long distance, west to east flights
2) WN's non-hub network doesn't make them as necessary as repositioning flights on the east coast for morning service.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8544
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:08 am

Obviously, this is a departure from the jetBlue method of having every plane in the air all night, to keep the planes earning revenue around the clock, and to save on parking fees.

A departure from the jetBlue method? Haha... WN is a good 3 decades older than B9, they have their own method. Since B9 is the new kid on the block, if anyone is departing from anyone, jetBlue is the departure from the LCC norm.

I think Pearson, Gigneil, and TxAgKuwait have pretty much nailed it on the head why Southwest do not fly red-eyes.
 
JBLUA320
Posts: 2997
Joined: Mon May 27, 2002 8:51 am

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:27 am

For the record, Southwest does fly red-eye charters...a few months ago, a military charter was flown DAL-EWR... it left Dallas at 12:30am and arrived Newark around 5:00am

JBLU
 
PSA53
Posts: 2928
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:54 pm

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:30 am

I'm surprised that WN/LUV, don't do more,"Midnight Flyer" specials.
This was started by PSA and was successfully it did attract
sometimes,"problem child passengers",because of the
reduced price, that normally don't fly.


Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
txagkuwait
Posts: 1388
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 1999 7:39 am

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:51 am

Oh, and lest we forget, Southwest didn't have just a whole lot of success back in the early 80s with some Las Vegas red eyes.

They had one that came out of Las Vegas, bound for Houston Hobby, at about 2...maybe 2:15 am. Arrival in Houston was around 6:15 although it almost always got in early.

Every time I rode it there were between 5 and 14 people on the airplane.

 
sprxflySWA
Posts: 587
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 3:37 am

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 12:06 pm

TxAgKuwait,
From what I gather from folks who worked in LAS, that flight was for freight/mail movement more than for pax convenience.

But I do wish we had some red-eye flights. OAK/LAX/LAS-BWI,or to Florida would be nice.
 
InnocuousFox
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:30 am

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:12 pm

"From what I gather from folks who worked in LAS, that flight was for freight/mail movement more than for pax convenience."

Also looks like a simple repositioning for the next morning.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
hz747300
Posts: 1906
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 pm

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:20 pm

I don't know if they still do it, but when I had stayed with my uncle in Roanoke, TX, Southwest jets would do touch-and-go's at Alliance airport in Ft. Worth overnight. They would stop after a few circuits to change pilots. The whole thing went on for a while.
Keep on truckin'...
 
Pe@rson
Posts: 16001
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:06 pm

Mariner - yeah, I understand the flights which leave the west coast very late at night and arrive in the east in the early morning. I did actually say "Perhaps on long transcontinental flights..." Cheers for the clarification, though.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
ChiGB1973
Posts: 1394
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:39 am

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 8:42 pm

I am not sure that it is an indusrty standard or our fearless leaders at TZ, but they define red-eye as: Flights operating between the hours of 2300-0600.
 
bacxboys
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 6:15 pm

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 8:58 pm

Another airline we often forget that has Red-eyes and outside the states is Qantas.
I recently flew PER-MEL left Per at 2250 and arrived Mel AT 0525 all on an ultra modern 2day old A330.
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:49 pm

I would say that flight #2255 is not a true red-eye. A red-eye is one where you arrive and the sun is already coming up. Arriving in Chicago at 12:20am would still give you time to sleep in the Central Time Zone and wake up refreshed. What do others think?

I agree with this, its not a red-eye hence its only a few hour flight and not a long haul flight arriving at like 6 or 7am.

I also read somewhere that WN sometimes flies charters in the middle of the night (they rarely do them during the day).

This is how our beloved U.S. military sneaks around  Big thumbs up LOL!!



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
Boeing757/767
Posts: 2179
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 11:05 pm

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:54 am

Don't forget Canada has a good number of red-eyes.
Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12361
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Tue Mar 23, 2004 6:09 am

Don't forget to consider that WN does few, if any, true non-stop/same plane transcons which are the most appropiate use of 'red-eyes', although that could happen in the future with longer range 737's now available (i.e.: LAX-BWI, PHX-BWI). Also, many airports are not open to pax services during wee hours (often closed 12 mid-6 am). You also have to staff on the ground at the counters, ramp, as well as the a/c themselves with their overhead costs.
 
ScottB
Posts: 5413
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:57 am

I think LTBEWR is on the mark here; historically, as a primarily short-haul carrier, Southwest has had few routes which would work well as red-eyes. A route like LAX-MCI, for example, leaving at 12:30 AM and arriving at 5:30 AM probably wouldn't get too many passengers, especially those paying walk-up fares.
 
jayspilot
Posts: 237
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 12:32 pm

RE: Southwest-not A Single Red-eye?

Tue Mar 23, 2004 8:03 am

red eye's would work on routes such as LAS-ALB, BDL and MHT. i could see them throwing this frequency into the schedule or to another city they decide to connect to vegas on the east coast