futureualpilot
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2 Capts. Flying Together, Common?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:33 pm

In the pic below, if you enlarge it, it looks as though both pilots have 4 stripes. Is it common for two Captains to fly together, or is the one in thr right seat an instructor training a new Capt.?



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Photo © Carlo Bertolini




thanks for the answer, I was just curious.
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DeltaGuy
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RE: 2 Capts. Flying Together, Common?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:43 pm

Good thread!

Well, two reasons...first, and this one's interesting...

This photo you post is of an ex-TWA Mad Dog...those two Captains are both ex-TWA....for awhile, and for a little bit longer, the TWA guys stuck to their own MD-80's, and the AA dudes to theirs...different a/c specs, procedures, etc etc...but same paint scheme (had a TWA sticker though). The F/O's who SHOULD be flying these jets have been long since furlughed (I know as my best friend's dad is one of those unlucky ones furloughed off of the right seat here). So basically, AA paid TWO Captains to fly this thing, almost doubling their expenses for the second crewmember. Soon all will be AA MD's, so the Capts will be flying with other AA guys...maybe a little bit of tension in those cockpits!

But.....in "normal" situations, you'll see two Captains on an IOE, or Initial Operating Experience, say when a new Captain in the jet is being checked out.....so the Line Check Airman will occupy the F/O seat, and the fresh, sparkling new Capt will be in his new seat.

Hope that helps!  Big thumbs up

DeltaGuy
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BOEING747-700
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RE: 2 Capts. Flying Together, Common?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:45 pm

I was on Pace Air from MCO to YYZ and we had two captains on the flight, no first officer just two captains. The F/As make a joke saying how it was going to get us home quicker.
 
futureualpilot
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RE: 2 Capts. Flying Together, Common?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:51 pm

Hey thanks guys, Id heard about this happening and thought that might have been the case. Thanks for your help!

Suppose they ever do rock paper scissors or something for who gets what seat in the flight deck?  Laugh out loud
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SV777KiloAlpha
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RE: 2 Capts. Flying Together, Common?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:57 pm

After 9/11, the FAA forced some international airlines to have two captains at the controls whenever they are in the US airspace.

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qqflyboy
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RE: 2 Capts. Flying Together, Common?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 3:05 pm

I don't think the tension issue is so big... right now in STL we have TWA captains flying with AA first officers on the AA equipment. They're just like all other pilots and generally the crew dynamic is unchanged. It's nice to have them onboard as we get to hear fresh stories and here the about the legacy that is TWA. I rather enjoy it.
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DeltaGuy
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RE: 2 Capts. Flying Together, Common?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 3:10 pm

Suppose they ever do rock paper scissors or something for who gets what seat in the flight deck?

So whoever calls "shotgun" first gets the F/O seat?  Big thumbs up Less work for those who'd like to slack  Big grin

Naw, like I said, the subject of the IOE will occupy his new seat...so Capt in his new Capt seat...the Check Airman can fly either. I'd imagine for those TWA Capts, they'd be assigned the seat by senority? Anyone care to chime in?

Again, good thread UALpilot Big grin

DeltaGuy
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Big777jet
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RE: 2 Capts. Flying Together, Common?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 3:14 pm

Once, I remembered I was visiting the cockpit before the flight to RFD from ORD on McClain 727 and same day return to ORD. I went to the cockpit and I noticed captain was before flew to RFD and he was seating on F/O seat. I bet they are two captains.

Big777jet


 
Guest

RE: 2 Capts. Flying Together, Common?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:42 pm

Correct, quite common to have two captains together...
After all, captains can be first officers, why not...
Many scenarios are possible...
xxx
There may be a check-captain in the right seat, giving training to the other.
That is quite common with all airlines.
xxx
Reserve crewmembers. First officer is calling sick.
Crew desk calls reserve first officers, but none available, so they get a captain.
I am a management pilot (captain) as instructor. I often replace first officers.
xxx
Many of our 747 first officers were captain 737, they continue wearing 4 stripes.
All our captains AND first officers are qualified as captain in 747 (same qualification)
So you may also see a first officer in the left seat with us. They are captain qualified in the 747.
We just "trade seats", the captain decides "who flies left seat" going out and coming back...
xxx
Now were are getting these 747-400s on the line. I will not fly them.
The normal crew complement is 2 captains + 1 first officer. That is because of length of sectors.
Both captains will occupy pilot seats for takeoff and landing.
The first officer will only occupy a pilot seat in cruise. They are... "cruise first officers".
xxx
Happy contrails  Smile
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Starlionblue
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RE: 2 Capts. Flying Together, Common?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:46 pm

Skipper, I had heard of these "cruise" people before for the A340. Doesn't life get boring for them? No takeoffs or landings apart from a few each month to keep your qualification. Or is it considered a rite of passage, like going from F/O to Captain.

How long do they have to do that before starting to make serious ass-shaped indentations in one of the two front seats?
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EMBQA
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RE: 2 Capts. Flying Together, Common?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:02 pm

Like Skipper said, it's really not that uncommon and can happen for any number of reasons.

Could be a Check Ride...
Could be the F/O called in sick, and a Capt was the replacement.
Could be the Capts final flight and he asked his buddy to F/O for him....
Could be a new Capt getting some training....
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ERFly
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RE: 2 Capts. Flying Together, Common?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:15 pm

Other thing it could be is a displaced captain. Beacause of all the furloughs, the guy in the right seat could have been a captain. However, because of furloughs and downsizing, it could be the only position he could hold is MD-80 F/O. The thinking is though, once a captain, always a captain. They won't take away your stripes, but you don't get the scambled eggs on your hat. It is very common sight now. If you don't believe me, it's happening a lot at US Airways. Just walk through PHL, PIT or CLT. You'll see plenty.

It must be hard to go from Captain to F/O, but at least they're still flying.
 
ord
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RE: 2 Capts. Flying Together, Common?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:36 pm

As an aside, don't forget in the original Airport movie you had two captains flying the plane. Dean Martin was in the co-pilot's seat on the flight to check out the other captain. According to the movie captains (at fictitous Trans Global) were checked out every six months.
 
SlamClick
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RE: 2 Capts. Flying Together, Common?

Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:54 pm

. . . and so they got to arguing seniority and forgot to put the gear down!

At at least one airline (US) almost everyone who still has a job wears four stripes. The junior guy on the property has more than fifteen years seniority.


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CO2BGR
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RE: 2 Capts. Flying Together, Common?

Tue Mar 23, 2004 12:02 am

When I flew CO to MXP during break the IRO "International reserve officer" or second first officer for legs over 8 hours was a displaced captain so he wore 4 stripes but no branches on his hat. That is the most likely scenario at the US airlines today.
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N323ER
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RE: 2 Capts. Flying Together, Common?

Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:35 am

Training. That is why they are two CA's the first three months (depending on airline procedures)

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DeltaGuy
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RE: 2 Capts. Flying Together, Common?

Tue Mar 23, 2004 3:00 am

They won't take away your stripes, but you don't get the scambled eggs on your hat. It is very common sight now.

Correct...displacement is a very common thing, or a 737 Capt going to 76ER F/O for example....you can still wear the stripes on your coat, but the wings, epaulets, and cap all have to be F/O again...I often see a 4-striper Delta guy walking through a terminal, and upon getting closer, see that he has F/O wings or a cap...some just choose to take the extra stripe off and look like a regular joe F/O. There's a few stories behind those! And as SlamClick said, there's alot of former Capts on property...and at least with DL, (until recently) there were just a few ex-Captains on the furlough list (those very junior DL Express Capts, like my dad)

DeltaGuy
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northseatiger
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RE: 2 Capts. Flying Together, Common?

Wed Mar 24, 2004 9:36 am

On our North sea Helicopters we regularly have 2 captains flying together I was just commenting today on the fact that at least 1/4 of the flights had 2 captains on.
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