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Any Single-aisle Aircraft Orders By AC?

Sun Jan 30, 2000 6:55 am

I'm well aware that Air Canada does have orders for several A340-500 and A340-600s, as well as up to 6 A330-300s, 2-3 of which are already in service. But I heard a rumor that AC might start ordering a number of smaller aircraft, like the A318/319/320 family, or maybe even a few CRJs. This rumor began around the time when CP was formally taken over on Dec. 23/99. Any truth to these rumors? I certainly haven't seen or heard anything official from AC yet, unless I missed it.
 
AC183
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RE: Any Single-aisle Aircraft Orders By AC?

Sun Jan 30, 2000 7:12 am

I think they can be considered as rumours, at least as far as new orders. Really, anything could happen with regard to CRJ's, 717's, 767's, A318/319/320/321, who knows. On the subject of RJ orders, when AC announced it would merge its regionals, the new president did mention RJ's in the Globe and Mail. It may be a while before something happens on that front, but I think it is a good bet it will happen eventually. As far as orders they currently have, there are 10 firm and 10 options that CP currently has for A320's. CP also has 2 767-300 and 1 747-400 option outstanding. AC has no narrow bodied orders outstanding, just the 330/340 aircraft.
 
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RE: Any Single-aisle Aircraft Orders By AC?

Sun Jan 30, 2000 10:32 am

Thanks, AC183, for the info. But it's interesting, I didn't know that CP has 10 firm orders and 10 options for A320s despite its huge debt load, although I do already know of its orders for 767-300ERs and a 747-400. I thought about the CRJs, as they were pulled from service in Western Canada entirely mainly because they had to be put onto transborder routes from YYZ, YOW and YUL. I noticed the CRJs were flying on Western Canadian routes until early 1997, I think. Then these planes completely disappeared from airports like YYC, YEG and YWG! I suppose AC could probably start ordering more CRJs and possibly other narrowbodies as well. We should keep our eyes and ears out - with the rate at which the Canadian airline industry is changing, you'll never know.
 
AC183
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RE: Any Single-aisle Aircraft Orders By AC?

Sun Jan 30, 2000 11:39 am

On the 320's- they were ordered years ago, but deferred continually because of the terrible finances at CP for most of this decade. I remember well seeing the CRJ's running the YYC-YEG hop for quite a while. While I am told anything but the Dash8's aren't friendly for rampers in terms of regional aircraft, I would think CRJ's would be perfect for YYC-YEG shuttle runs during off-peak hours. Or really for any short hop business route. I think when the combined regional gets RJ's we'll see them on that hop, and probably Thunder Bay-Winnipeg and everything but peak hour flights from YWG, YEG and YYC to Regina and Saskatoon. Good to see an Edmontonian on here. I'm from Calgary, studying in the 'Peg. You going to NAIT?
 
Guest

RE: Any Single-aisle Aircraft Orders By AC?

Sun Jan 30, 2000 1:09 pm

The thing about RJs, is that I'm talking about Canadair Regional Jets which disappeared from the western scene. I'm sure that the combined regional airline will order new RJs, but probably not CRJs as AC already owns or leases them directly. They might be Avro RJs(BAe 146 derivatives), EMB-135/145s, or something else. Then again, AC *could* shift all CRJs under the combined regional's name.

Yes, I'm taking evening classes at NAIT. Not my favourite time of day for sure, but they're the only classes I can get in, as space is so little and enrolment so high. NAIT only accepts only fresh high school grads for daytime programs, that's why. I want to be able to get an IT career in the airline industry or for airports in the future.
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: Any Single-aisle Aircraft Orders By AC?

Sun Jan 30, 2000 10:46 pm

We had a disucssion about Air Canada RJ´s not far ago. Here is the only rumour about Air Canada or its subsidaries concerning RJs:

"Canadian Regional Airlines will buy up to 30 regional jets within the next two years to replace F28. The introduction of the new jets is scheduled in 5 years, the 728JET is prefered as the carrier can offer a business class in."

I don´t think that AC will order Avro RJs. Why using a 4-engined regional jet when cheaper 2-engined jets of the same size i.e. 728JET/928JET and ERJ-170/-190 and the CRJ700 and probably CRJ900 are aviable? I think the Avro production won´t run for many years from now on, I expect them to close the line in less then 5 years.

In the 50-seats segment I don´t know what they are going for. They have a substatial CRJ100/200 fleet (26) so an order for a CRJ50 or however they call a 30-seat CRJ is more likely. I don´t see Embraer or Fairchild having much chances in this competition. But if you hear something different please let me know it.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
slawko
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Jut A Rumour

Mon Jan 31, 2000 8:54 am

I heard from some people at Air Ontario and Air Canada, that AC was considering droping the CRJ totally from teh fleet and Getting the Dash 8-Q400 to replace it. reason for this was that During bad weather like we had at YYZ last winter around new years, all of the RJ's were stuck in the snow, becaause of their low wheels. The Dash 8's on the other hand had very few problems getting throught the snow. The Q400 seats more people then the CRJ's has an almost equal range if not exactly equal, and would therefore serve the same routes as teh RJ but with more pax, and a larger airplane. In terms of performance, they have a simmilar cruise and max alt. The new Q's are all just as quiet as the jets, and they have almost equal range.

At teh same time AC was looking at teh 318's and 717's for some of their shorhaul low capacity routes to finaly get rid of teh DC-9's and supliment the 319's and 320's.

All orders and future fleet plans were put on hold by Air Canada because of the merger/takeover talks that started last summer, but now that it is all calming down, AC is looking at these planes again, as well as alot more 767's because they are ideal for some of the new routes that AC want's to go ahead with. AC pilots say that it is a perfect plane for routes like Telaviv, and Amsterdam. It is becoming more and more likely that AC will be putting in a new order with Boeing and Bombardier, in the near futeure, and get out of it's airbus rut.
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
superdawg
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RE: Any Single-aisle Aircraft Orders By AC?

Mon Jan 31, 2000 11:22 am

I still occassionaly see CRJ's here at Calgary. Haven't gone spotting in about a month but the last time I did I saw some.
 
AC183
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RE: Any Single-aisle Aircraft Orders By AC?

Mon Jan 31, 2000 11:41 am

Superdawg, AC's CRJ's at YYC? Or are you talking about Skywest/Delta? Anyways, into the discussion. A couple of points on the RJ issue. First of all, on the CRJ's. All in all I think Bombardier will offer a good enough deal for AC's regionals to buy CRJ's, the threat being that AC would simply buy more mainliners or continue to fly the not-all-that-old Dash8's for longer if the deal isn't sweet enough. I can't see them going from AC. The reason being that passengers prefer them, and it allows AC to compete better with aircraft like WestJet's 737's into smaller cities, like Thunder Bay or Regina or on transborder hops. Simply put, passengers have become so sold on jets since the short hop jets like the DC9's and 737's came out in the '60's that I'm not sure they'd go for props, even though I think they'd be pleasantly surprised with the Dash8Q's. I also can't see them transferring to the regionals. The reason being I'm not sure the pilots union would allow it. There is also, I believe, at this time a scope clause with the pilots that says the AC regionals cannot get more RJ's than the 146's in service, but I do expect that to be removed, and for the regionals to get RJ's. Indications from the management of the merged AC regionals indicates that will happen. The reason, by the way, that AC got the CRJ's in the first place was for transborder operations, where they felt the AC name would be better recognized than AirOntario or AirBC or AirNova. As far as the Fairchild 728's. Canadian Regional is to be merged with AC's regionals if it isn't sold in the next 2 months, so I rather doubt they will get 728's. I predict AC's mainline aircraft will operate at least during peak hours on routes where they need business class, and Canadian Regional's presence on mainline routes will disappear. And that's not all a bad thing, as I think Canadian Regional when merged in with the AC regionals will be very good at their short hop connector routes, but I'd rather mainline aircraft on the mainline routes. Now, as far as the ERJ's. I rather doubt it. The only reason I could see that would be for the 35 seaters, but I kind of think they'd just extend the life of the current Dash8 fleet for that. Which brings me to the Dash8's. I would love to see Q series aircraft. They would be great for short hops like YYJ-YVR, or for any number of airports where STOL is a big plus, especially in the BC interior. The Q100 could be a nice complement for the CRJ's in terms of size. I don't see them really going for Q400's, though, as I think as long as they're going for 70 seats they'd start to want a business class of a larger aircraft. Which brings me to the AvroRJ/BAe146 jets. I have to wonder what will happen there. They are comfortable, quiet, spacious, and have business class cabins. However, they do have 4 engines, smaller overhead bins, and lack the audio and video of larger aircraft. For these reasons I don't think we'll see new orders for Avro's, but I would't mind seeing (though it is improbable) AC's regionals acquiring a few additional used 146's to tide the fleet over in the short term. Perhaps it would be possible if they are waiting for BRJ-X series aircraft? As far as 717's, I don't know. I think AC will at least give it serious though. If the price is right, the delivery schedule should be favourable. And I think they're quite well suited for flights on AC's routes of under 1000 miles. But if Boeing doesn't give them an offer they couldn't refuse, well, I wouldn't count on it... Also, Flying-tiger, I think you can call Inter-Canadien's order for ERJ's dead. The investment fund which was looking at restarting them has pulled out, and there's nobody else looking to invest. I think it's pretty much final that they're shut down for good, even the employees have given up on a re-starting of operations.
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: Any Single-aisle Aircraft Orders By AC?

Mon Jan 31, 2000 7:09 pm

Thakns AC183. I knew that Inter-Canadian wasn´t operating in the last months but I didn´t know that they were dead. To my knowledge the Inter-Canadian ERJ-145 order is still listed in the Emrbaer books but I will see what I can get from there.

The Canadian Regional decision is expected to be late this year or early 2001. And nothing has been said what they prefer now. The 728JET would be nice for them as I think that the CRJ700 isn´t the ideal 70-seater. But the 728JET will make its maden flight in about 2 years and they will need about three years till they can deliver the first to CCR.

The BAe 146-200/300 which are used by airlines in Canada are getting old and need to be replaced in a few years. I don´t think that the Avro RJ70/85/100 are a good choice as they have four engines and are expensive. A new design (the ERJ-170/728JET) fit better I think. And I think that the Avro RJ line will be closed soon.

The Dash 8-QX00 isn´t really a oppotunity AC will choose. Here the "prop-avoidance-factor" is important.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
slawko
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If You Think That AC Will Get ERJ's Or 728's

Tue Feb 01, 2000 10:55 am

Then you are out of your mind. First of all, would you think that VARIG or VASP would every buy a CRJ?? There is now way that Air Canada will ever buy any of the other planes, if it is going to get anything it will be CRJ's, CRJ700's, or CRJ900's or Dahs-8's from Bombardier. It will support the national economy and be viewed as something that they can use for publicity within canada. Besides the CRJ's already have a history with the company, and considering the trade "war" going on between Canadian and Brazillian aerospace companies lately orders for ERJ's on Canada are more Science Fiction then they are Fact
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: If You Think That AC Will Get ERJ's Or 728's

Tue Feb 01, 2000 8:11 pm

I´ve never said that AC will order the ERJ-135/140/145/170/190. The 50 seater order will go to Bombardier bu concerning the 70 seaters I´m not so sure. The CRJ700 and possible the CRJ900 are long tubes and don´t have extremly good economics. The CRJ700 MAY be added but the 728JET is a bit bigger and they can offer a business class in it. I THINK that a new generation 70-seat RJ will make the race, most probably the 728JET.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
AC183
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RE: If You Think That AC Will Get ERJ's Or 728's

Wed Feb 02, 2000 5:51 am

I'll throw a little more of my speculations out there for you guys' consideration. I know, they're nothing substantial, but perhaps of interest. First of all, I want to remind people that Air Nova, Air BC, Air Ontario, and if it's not sold otherwise Canadian Regional are all going to be merging. This creates some consolidation of capacity. Secondly, the entire AC/CP buyout deal will see CP operated as a subsidiary, but both airlines will effectively share a single schedule. This also means consolidation. What I'm getting to is that I'm not even so sure any 70-80 seat aircraft will be ordered. If these moves can consolidate capacity, it is possible that 2 flights will be replaced by a single mainline flight, possibly even a new 100 seater for AC or CP. The other option, as I see it, is that the regionals may hang on for up to 5 years in order to get BRJ-X90 aircraft, if they are built, even though they are a little bigger. If they don't go for BRJ's, business class would be a major issue on choosing another aircraft, but that's partly why I'm not discounting routes being passed up to mainline aircraft. Also, on the 146's. They are aging, but I can't see them being replaced immediately. Their business class seating is why. At this point, replacing mainline CP aircraft, and AC's DC9's would have to be higher on the priority list. But I wouldn't rule out a few extra 146's being leased for a few short years, despite their age, because there's nothing they're ready to replace them with yet, and they may be able to replace some F28 routes. Honestly, however, a few short term leased 146's is highly unlikely, as much as I'd like to see that happen. More likely is the reshuffling of 146 usage within the combined regional network. As to the CRJ, I think 50 seaters are obvious, and for this reason a handful of 70 seaters could be added for short routes, notwithstanding the lack of business class. My curiousity would be whether any new props would be coming, or if they'll just run the same Dash8's indefinitely.
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: If You Think That AC Will Get ERJ's Or 728's

Fri Feb 04, 2000 4:01 am

AC183, if the different regional carriers merge it is clear that the capacity will be cut but I think most probably of the cost of the Dash 8s. The F28 is to my knowledge in several fleets and we can´t deny that these planes are getting old an need some kind of replacement, most probably a 70 seater of the new generation. I wouldn´t rule out an Avro-RJ order but it is very unlikely.

To the BAe146-x00 leasing: To my knowledge there are nearly no BAe146 avaialbe on the leasing market and BAe Asset Management has no offers for some on their website.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/orders
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20

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