Spoon04
Topic Author
Posts: 179
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:15 am

Mgmt. Concessions - An Oxymoron?

Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:44 am

Pay concessions. Nary a day goes by without the mention of workers being asked, or blackmailed into sacrificing pay, health benefits, or other employee-related aspects in order to "save" a company, or "save" their jobs. As we know, the concept of pay concessions is universally inherent to the airline industry seemingly world-wide; and I just have to wonder: When management from say, US Airways, NWA, United, American, or ANY airline looking to boost, or improve their profitability brings to the table the subject of concessions, do the desired concessions pertain to management as WELL as rank & file? I'm just curious. And IF pay concessions pertain to management employees AS WELL, do those pay concessions just mean they forfeit this years multi-thousand dollar bonus they would normally collect off their hefty annual salaries? Just curious........ Also, (examining a hypothetical) should airline employees across-the-board have to pay the price (in concessions) if mismanagement initially, and continually played a significant role in any airline's dire financial plight? Again, just curious.....
 
aviaar
Posts: 227
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2001 8:16 am

RE: Mgmt. Concessions - An Oxymoron?

Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:51 am

Well........you've got a pretty deep post here.


Umm...Yeah, looks like you...you said a lot, that's....always a...a good thing.

But Seriously...
If I remember right, back when Don Carty was still on top at American, he chose to cut back on his salary as a way to lessen the airline's losses-it wasn't required of him. I don't think the concessions apply to senior officers and high-ranking officials, unless they choose to do so. I think it only applies to the mainstream employees.

Sorry I couldn't provide much.
I'd rather be flying (real original)
 
sccutler
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RE: Mgmt. Concessions - An Oxymoron?

Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:26 am

Well, to start with, the number of layoffs at the management level in most carriers has substantially outstripped those at the line level, and they have no expectation of recall at all- they are out of a job, period.

In addition, most management level employees are subject to, and have experienced, pay reductions, unilaterally taken, without the necessity for agreement by the affected employees. Take it, or leave. Forget "multi-thousand dollar bonuse" on top of the "hefty annual salary."

Management employees, of course, are given or denied pay raises based upon merit, not upon any CBA.

Management employees don't get overtime. So, while many have been laid off, those who remain are likely working dramatically extended hours.

There are not that many at the "top."
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
pmk
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RE: Mgmt. Concessions - An Oxymoron?

Wed Mar 24, 2004 2:38 pm

Sccutler:

Exactly right. As an executive I work seven days a week 80-90 hours a week, and as a salaried employee right now I make less per hour than most of the hourly employees. It's not easy at the top.

Peter
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Mgmt. Concessions - An Oxymoron?

Wed Mar 24, 2004 2:59 pm

"Exactly right. As an executive I work seven days a week 80-90 hours a week, and as a salaried employee right now I make less per hour than most of the hourly employees. It's not easy at the top."

Plus we don't have a union to scream bloody murder if out staplers aren't regulation size...or if HR alters our benefits, pay, or hours (a moot point if you're salaried).
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
ElkGrove
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Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 12:59 pm

RE: Mgmt. Concessions - An Oxymoron?

Wed Mar 24, 2004 9:25 pm

Spoon04-

Sccutler provided an excellent summary for you and I concur with all of his points. Management most definitely does share in the sacrifices of the employees. I received a decrease in salary of nearly 25%. This was in addition to receiving no bonus for two years and changes to my benefits package. It is very important that all employees, including management, share the burden of hard times. While these events have dramatically changed my lifestyle, it’s only fair to the employees of my company.

-ElkGrove
 
Boeing757/767
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Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 11:05 pm

RE: Mgmt. Concessions - An Oxymoron?

Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:36 pm

Absolutely does management share in the pain. I concur with the above posts based on my own experience and knowing management at other airlines.
Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
 
bobnwa
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RE: Mgmt. Concessions - An Oxymoron?

Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:45 pm

Spoon04,

Are you saying that to your knowledge non-contract management employees have not shared in the cost cuts at the major airlines? Are you saying they have not lost their jobs to a greater degree than union employees, with no chance of being called back?

Not quite sure what your point is.

Don't confuse the very top layer of airline management with the thousands of mid-level and lower level managers.
 
slider
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Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Mgmt. Concessions - An Oxymoron?

Thu Mar 25, 2004 12:06 am

Spoon- If your intent is to stir the pot and try to create discord and breed class envy, skip it.

As some of my fellow management colleagues above have succintly stated, a management employee is an at-will employee. He/she can be sacked for no reason at any time. There is no union with it's infinite number of grievance procedures, challenges and levels of discpline. One and done, if that's the way the chips fall.

Furthermore, as PMK stated, most mgmt employees work well in excess of 40+ hours a week, and if they travel, that is more time away from home. There is no overtime. There is no holiday pay, especially for operational management employees.

Additionally, as someone whose job was a 9/11 casualty, I can tell you that unlike a line union employee who has recall rights if furloughed within a seniority system, that doesn't pertain to management. And I know for a fact that UA and NW mgmt folks have taken pay cuts, with CO having been frozen for the past 3 years. I can't speak to the other major carriers as to their pay status. Moreover, most of those jobs that were cut after 9/11 never came back. Hence, many management employees have taken on more responsibility at ALL levels of the company, and are wearing several hats. If you have any perception whatsoever that management or non-union employees don't carry their "fair share" (the buzzword of the class-envy crowd), then I'll kindly tell you that your perception is grossly incorrect.
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: Mgmt. Concessions - An Oxymoron?

Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:06 pm

As with other companies experiencing difficulty, often it is the management ranks that see some of the first changes and restructuring. Pay cuts and benefit changes are imposed automatically with little or objection, and is not negotiated. As ElkGrove noted, the % paycut is often larger than the employees covered under a CBA. 25%...that's slightly more than the UA pilots took, and I think about 10% more than the mechanics took.

In addition, in many cases a large number of managers either leave or "encouraged" to leave, so that the company can move in a different direction with a fresh staff. In the case of UA, a large number of senior managers under the Jim Goodwin regime are now gone. I hope that Mr. Tilton and Jake Brace and of course 'ElkGrove' stay on for a long period of time, though it wouldn't surprise me if Jake leaves within a year after UA emerges.

And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
Spoon04
Topic Author
Posts: 179
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:15 am

RE: Mgmt. Concessions - An Oxymoron?

Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:13 pm

Slider, ah, no, my intent was not to stir the pot or create discord. I was actually attempting to obtain information from management folks regarding their positions regarding concessions from their respective positions. Fair enough?
 
Sydscott
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RE: Mgmt. Concessions - An Oxymoron?

Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:30 pm


"And IF pay concessions pertain to management employees AS WELL, do those pay concessions just mean they forfeit this years multi-thousand dollar bonus they would normally collect off their hefty annual salaries? Just curious........"

I'll assume you are talking about Executive Management rather than line management. This bonus will have a clearly defined contractual way of being calculated and of being paid. The fact a Senior Executive gets a bonus in times like these at someone like US is more to do with the individual performance of their designated role rather than on a measure of profitability and cash flow for the company as a whole. Only the CEO and the few at the very top of the tree should get judged on measures such as those. There is also the method of payment that can become an issue. I'm sure you wouldn't mind if Dave Siegels bonus was getting paid in options at a specified strike price or the like. Its the cash component that gets unions backs out of joint. As the posters above have said, middle management jobs are usually the first to go in any restructure so the people that are left carrying the can deserve a bonus for doing 2 to 3 jobs in one.

"Also, (examining a hypothetical) should airline employees across-the-board have to pay the price (in concessions) of mismanagement initially, and continually played a significant role in any airline's dire financial plight? Again, just curious..... "

Everyone pays the price for mismanagement from those perpetuating it to those working for the company. To say that one group of people within a mismanaged or non-performing company should in some way be exempt from making concessions that will keep them employed is a mistaken strategy to say the least. If a company is in dire straits then everyone shares the pain the same way that when a company is performing well everyone shares in some of the profits. No pain = no gain. No gain = no airline. Simplistic but basically true in this day and age.
 
Spoon04
Topic Author
Posts: 179
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:15 am

RE: Mgmt. Concessions - An Oxymoron?

Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:13 pm

Sydscott, yes, my mistake.... I was referring to Executive Management regarding the issue of bonuses. I should have been more specific.
 
mojo89
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RE: Mgmt. Concessions - An Oxymoron?

Tue Mar 30, 2004 4:34 am

Definitely speaking from experience here. I wear more hats now than I did two years ago, with less compensation. I have seen employees covered by a CBA go and come back while managers that were let go are still gone.
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. -Dr. Hunter S. Thompson