wgw2707
Posts: 1110
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:37 am

An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:25 pm

This thread is addressed to the pilots of Delta Air Lines and to the employees in general of US Airways. It is not addressed to the flight attendants, ground personnel and other staff of Delta Air Lines who have already had to accept huge paycheck reductions.

I beseech you to realize the dangerous position you are putting your jobs and the jobs of your fellow employees, millions of dollars worth of investments, and the future of airline service along your respective employers' routes in. By failing to agree to slight reductions in your paycheck, you run the risk that you will never receive a paycheck from Delta or US Airways again. This is not a question of you being over-compensated, or in more simple terms you not being worth the money the company spends on you, but rather a question of your company not being able to sustain its current cost structure due to a dramatic decrease in revenue. Since the tragic events of 9/11 and the economic downturn, economic patterns, especially relating to travel, have shifted dramatically.

Instead of preferring to fly on the well established network carriers, the public have turned in large numbers to an ever expanding number of low cost carriers, which take advantage of a large number of often temporary cost advantages to hugely under-sell the major carriers in terms of ticket prices, yet which are able to generate a profit as a result due to their low cost structure. The major carriers have to match the low fares on routes that face LCC competition, for obvious reasons. However, to do so frequently results in a loss as the major carriers have much higher cost structures. A portion of this cost is inevitable; it is baggage left over from years of doing business, years of debts, years of pensions accumulating and the added costs associated with providing regional and international services and using a hub-and-spoke route system.

However, the larger portion of these costs are adjustable. Both Delta and US Airways have made admirable progress in reducing costs in other areas, by cutting back service and improving efficiency. However, in both cases, one final area of cost needs to be addressed: labor costs. The salaries paid to pilots at Delta are way out of proportion to the industry average, and the salaries paid to most employees at US Airways remain out of proportion to the company's ability to generate revenue. This means that the sad reality is, as long as Delta and US Airways continue paying you what they currently are, they cannot generate a profit.

In both cases, management has made huge strides in reducing costs elsewhere, but still it is not enough. The LCCs are eroding the marketshare of both airlines and will continue to do so. In addition to the LCCs, both airlines also face the problem of competition from other network carriers and for shorter hauls, competition from the automobile. More people drive rather than fly now than before 9/11. Delta and US Airways both suffer from some of the highest cost structures in the industry, and until they can lower their labor costs this will continue to be the case, meaning that in the current economic condition it is unlikely that either company will be able to generate a profit. Both companies will run out of cash and be forced into bankruptcy.

By voting for concessions when it comes time to cast your ballot (assuming negotiations get that far with the leaders of your unions), you will be securing the long-term future of your paycheck, your pension and your travel benefits. I urge you to consider before voting "no" on a concession what your single no vote could potentially cost. It could cost you a 30-50% involuntary reduction in your salary when your company enters Chapter 11 protection (and it WILL), or worse, it could cause you to no longer receive any paycheck at all should your company be liquidated. In addition, thousands of investors, many of them elderly retired persons, would loose their savings that they had invested in your companies under almost any scenario involving your company entering into bankruptcy. Finally, the consumer will loose out because left to their own devices with no competition, the LCCs will quickly raise their fares on all markets they will serve exclusively. In addition, should your company go under (likely in Chapter 11), the number of non-stop flights from cities such as ATL and CLT to points around the country will be substantially reduced, in a manner similar to what has occurred at STL following the unfortunate demise of TWA. Finally, proud companies with glorious, decades-long histories spanning nearly the entirety of commercial aviation will no longer exist.

However, by agreeing to a reduction in your salary, you will ensure the future of your paycheck, the future of your job, the future of your airline. You will help keep a vital transportation service in operation. You will help to ensure that air service continues in small communities, and that competition exists on the international markets. Finally, in a few years time when your companies return to economic health and prosperity, your paychecks will almost certainly increase. Think of it as an essential investment. By agreeing to these wage cuts now, you will be investing in your future, and in the future of your companies and the jobs of your fellow employees. Management will take pay cuts along with you. By working with management, rather than against them, you will contribute a great deal to the national transport system.

I urge you to consider this appeal. Nothing less than the future of your employer, your job and the jobs of your co-workers is at stake, nothing more than a "YES" vote on a 15% paycheck reduction is necessary to solve the problem.

-WGW2707


 
jessman
Posts: 1457
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 1:11 pm

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:41 pm

Just to be clear, DL employees have not had an official "paycut". We have, however, had changes in our healthcare and retirement benefeits. Here in RES we have hade some changes in our time management expectations. The airports have drastically reduced staffing at ticket counters, gates, and the ramp. BUT Changes in gross pay haven't happened at Delta. Yet.

Other than that, I think you're right that it would be in the company's best interest if the pilots took a pay cut. The pilots won't be working if the company goes belly up. HOWEVER, the pilots' salaries are not the only thing wrong with either company, and both really need to focus on all ways to keep costs down.
 
wgw2707
Posts: 1110
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:37 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:49 pm

With US Airways, labor costs in general are too high. At Delta, it is a specific problem with pilots. Though other problems exist, Delta has made so many cutbacks that if pilot wages were normalized they probably would immediately enter into profitability. From my understanding of the situation, all DL is asking for is 15% from the pilots, not 30%, which I believe is the difference between their salary and what is currently the industry standard.

-WGW2707
 
ScooterTrash
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2001 10:39 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:51 pm

Look kid, I appreciate your opinion, but you have allot to learn about how the airlines operate.

This thread is addressed to the pilots of Delta Air Lines and to the employees in general of US Airways. It is not addressed to the flight attendants, ground personnel and other staff of Delta Air Lines who have already had to accept huge paycheck reductions.


So basically you are talking about pilots and mechanics? How about the wholly-owned U Express pilots at Piedmont and Allegheny? Do we cost too much? Should we all be whoring ourselves out like Mesa and Pinnacle or did your in-depth research and vast experience in the aviation industry not get to that point yet?

There is another thread here about Siegel asking for more concessions where I responded to you, so I will not repeat everything I had to say. Suffice it to say, the wage earned by the employees is not the problem. The problems (both DL and US) are primarily productivity related. By relaxing some work rules labor can help by doing more with less, but slashing wages and benefits will not change a single thing. The leadership for change has to come from management.

Your last comment is what really made me chuckle:

I urge you to consider this appeal. Nothing less than the future of your employer, your job and the jobs of your co-workers is at stake, nothing more than a "YES" vote on a 15% paycheck reduction is necessary to solve the problem.


If you think giving up another 15 percent is going to save these companies, you are seriously out of touch with reality. Giving money to those guys is like tossing it into a well... You will never see it again. By the way, do you know how the payscales between U and WN compare? As far as the pilots go, WN makes MORE.

You act as though giving up 15% of your pay is so easy... Tell me, how would you feel? Do you have a family you support? I highly doubt it. You have allot of learning to do. Don't buy everything airline CEO's try to sell you.

Scooter


 
coa764
Posts: 309
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:32 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:51 pm

I urge you to consider before voting "no" on a concession what your single no vote could potentially cost. It could cost you a 30-50% involuntary reduction in your salary when your company enters Chapter 11 protection (and it WILL)

This is not necessarily true in this sense. If the pilot group agrees to a pay concession of lets say 20% and the company enters chapter 11 you could and still see that additional cut of 30-50% on top of the 20% you gave away prior to entering bankruptcy.
Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
 
concord977
Posts: 1224
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 1:43 pm

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:59 pm

WGW2707,

Interesting perspective.

Your profile indicates that you are age 16-20. Is this correct?
No info
 
wgw2707
Posts: 1110
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:37 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:07 pm

In reply to Scootertrash:

The increasing tend of regional operations being outsourced to airlines such as Mesa is demonstrative of the high cost associated with operating these routes and as your comments make it clear, the higher cost of having in-house employees staff these services. Outsourcing regional operations has been a hugely successful way for many airlines to reduce costs and increase profitability. A case-in-point example is Delta Connection, which consists of seperate companies and wholly owned subsidiaries with different labor contracts that compete for the right to operate regional services, thus keeping costs low. Delta Connection is currently the only part of Delta that makes money.

While it is unfortunate that the need exists for your salary to be cut, and while your lifestyle may be affected slightly, I should like to point out that taking a 15% cut is hugely preferrable to taking a 30-50% cut or worse, loosing your job altogether. I assure you that if Delta and/or US Airways go out of business, their employees lifestyle will suffer a lot more than it would should they accept a modest pay reduction.

Accepting relaxation in work rules is another critical area to achieving savings, but certainly in the case of Delta and probably in the case of US Airways, it will not be alone sufficient to save the airline. US Airways must have a 700 million cash reserve by the end of the summer and must be profitable by 2005. Delta will have around 1 billion less cash at the end of the year than it has now. Clearly, it should be evident that this is short-term problem, but a critical one, one in which all employees should make contributions to solving the problem. Over time, with a short term reduction in salary and a permanent improvement in productivity, the situation will certainly improve. However right now it is clear that US Airways and Delta need every possible saving.

The unfortunate reality of the industry today is that low cost carriers are winning more passengers away from the major carriers through a combination of lower fares and marketing. The LCCs are in reality not that much different, the main difference being their service tends to be more selective, poaching passengers on more lucrative markets and doing less nitty-gritty low yield or high cost intercontinental operation, but given the opportunity to charge a high fare most LCCs will do so without question. Should more major carriers go out of business there will be a reduction in the quality of service. Until the economy recovers, it is therefore neccessary for employees of US Airways, Delta and other troubled airlines (SAS for instance) to agree to short-term concessions in order to secure the long term future of their job.

In reply to CoA764:
If Delta manages to get a concession from the pilots, entry into bankruptcy will be highly unlikely. If you study their financial position you will see that that is where the money is being lost. At US Airways, in all probability with the upcoming deals with Richard Branson, the improvements in productivity, the entry into Star Alliance and most importantly, the modification of the requirements for repayment of the ATSB-guaranteed loan, agreeing to these concessions now will also ensure profitability. Minus the additional labor and productivity expenses being discussed here, both airlines would certainly be in a better economic position.

-WGW2707
 
DeltaGuy
Posts: 3965
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 5:25 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:11 pm

By working with management, rather than against them, you will contribute a great deal to the national transport system.

Like passively getting ripped a new rear-end hole? There's unions for a reason- to keep management's snotty hands off of the employees. There needs to be some unilateral cooperation...not just blind submission to mgmt.

Perhaps you should crank out a thread "An Appeal to (greedy) Management of Delta"...they are much of the problem as well. Don't get me wrong, DALPA should give some cash, but with just cause....how do they know that managment isn't just going to piss it away with fare sales and more bonuses and another paint scheme? There's a thousand ways to filter that...

Honestly, I'm sick and tired of hearing that paycuts NEED to happen because everyone else is doing it...just because little Jimmy next door had a skateboard doesnt mean it was what you had to have, right? I will agree 15% is reasonable...but not 33 frikkin percent!

I respect you for going out on a limb...but the issues of DL and UsAir are different entities...for different reasons. Trust me, ALPA and Mgmt will do something...just, the question is when.

Delta(ready to get flamed)Guy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
MSYtristar
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:52 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:18 pm

Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion of course, but people who do not work in the industry itself can only learn so much. Interesting comments on the situation at DL/US, but I think that many people on here will find some of those comments to be arrogant and presumptuous, however truthful those comments may be. You obviously are firmly behind the pilots taking pay cuts, but there are always two sides to every story. I'm sure the pilots will have a dramatically different view of things. Fact is, it will take more than pay cuts to get ship righted.


Steve/MSY
 
ScooterTrash
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2001 10:39 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:26 pm


Outsourcing regional operations has been a hugely successful way for many airlines to reduce costs and increase profitability


I disagree about outsourcing. What you say has some validity if the Express operation is in house, that is, a wholly-owned subsidiary. But contracting to affiliate carriers is rather foolish, especially fee-for-departure arrangements. You are giving revenue to another corperate entity whether that flight makes a profit or not. To say nothing of the fact that you has less control of your product and will suffer the resulting consumer response.

Your next comment is great:

While it is unfortunate that the need exists for your salary to be cut, and while your lifestyle may be affected slightly, I should like to point out that taking a 15% cut is hugely preferable to taking a 30-50% cut or worse, loosing your job altogether. I assure you that if Delta and/or US Airways go out of business, their employees lifestyle will suffer a lot more than it would should they accept a modest pay reduction.


Listen kid, you have no idea what I make so I will tell you. As a senior U Group Turboprop FO, I knock down a measly 35K per year pre tax. That is flying 1000 hours per year and being away from home 210 nights. I can guarantee U is getting there money's worth out of me. You think another 15% (that will NEVER happen- where'd you get that number anyway?) of my salary is going to save U Group? Dude, step away from the management books and the CEO kool-aid.

By the way, do you think the money I have already given up has just a "slight effect" on my lifestyle? Are you freaking nuts? Go balance the checkbook and pay the bills with mom and dad for a few months, then come talk to me. Your comment that this supposed 15% pay cut would only be a slight impediment to peoples lifestyles only further demonstrates your immaturity.

You write well and you are obviously enthusiastic. I hope you continue to pursue your interests. But don't pontificate to people who are out here doing this job in the real world.

Scooter
 
wgw2707
Posts: 1110
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:37 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:28 pm

Concord977, all information in my profile is accurate.

DeltaGuy and MSYTristar

Delta's current pilot wages are absurdly high compared to the industry average, this is one thing that cannot be denied. It is unfortunate that Delta can no longer pay the industry-leading wages it was once known for, however the economic situation requires drastic measures. One thing we can agree on is that unless action is taken both Delta and US Airways do not have a positive long-term outlook.

It should be noted, by the way, that my position on this issue is not unconventional in the slightest. Management at both Delta and US Airways are calling for what I am advocating here: that employees be willing to make concessions. From my understanding the pilots at Delta and the FAs and mechanics at US Airways so far haven't even been willing to sit at the table and discuss this matter.

The management at both US Airways and Delta surely understands the problems facing the airline as well as any of us here. Both management teams have made admirable progress in cost cutting where it is possible to do it. Admittedly they have made errors; US exited Chapter 11 without making enough cost reductions and Delta didn't respond quickly enough to post 9/11 economic changes and wasted money elsewhere. However, they have also made positive improvements in other areas. It cannot be argued that the management of either airline is wholly incompetent. Since clearly the management of both companies seem to be doing a fairly competent job, and since clearly they are competent and responsible, and willing to take cuts themselves, the validity of their argument for lower wages should be recognized.

All I am doing is agreeing with the management of these airlines that their wages need to be reduced to ensure economic stability, and beseeching their employees who would happen to read this thread to recognize the situation and to go along with these proposed reductions.

-WGW2707
 
Guest

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:35 pm

From my understanding of the situation, all DL is asking for is 15% from the pilots, not 30%, which I believe is the difference between their salary and what is currently the industry standard.

This is exactly right and why UAL is moving ahead today, even if not at a sprint. They did what they needed to do.
 
mia
Posts: 813
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 1:40 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:35 pm

I think management should take a 15% pay cut along with their pilots. The CEO's and CFO's of this world making millions of dollars that they do not deserve should take a solidarious pay cut. Laborers, you should not back down to management. For years, companies wasted away at their bursary and now YOU are being forced to pay. If an airline like Delta where to collapse (which is highly unlikely), then a new airline would arise and take its place. All these airlines do is complain and complain, while the customer has been and continues to be subjected to substandard service and higher than necessary fares.
"Like all great travelers, I have seen more than I remember, and remember more than I have seen."
 
Guest

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:39 pm

MIA... Everyone in the industry needs to re-evaluate their salaries.
 
MSYtristar
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:52 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:42 pm

Upper management pay at most airlines is ridiculous to say the least. Notice I did not mention city/station managers....those people are underpaid across the board....just look at the work they do, all that they are responsible for....give them a 15% pay increase and take 15% away from the people who won't even notice the 15% cut off the paycheck. Alas, no one ever said this was a "just" industry to work in. Many people do it for the love of aviation, not for the $$$.


Steve/NewOrleans
 
coa764
Posts: 309
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:32 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:44 pm

If Delta manages to get a concession from the pilots, entry into bankruptcy will be highly unlikely. If you study their financial position you will see that that is where the money is being lost.

I have no clue what DAL financial position is but I find it hard to believe that the reason for DAL problems are solely to blame on labor issue (I am sure the folks over at ALPA would love to discuss it with you, you should post your message on their website). I can tell you something about another airline, CAL. CAL has been cutting cost over the last two years and has yet to ask for one labor cut. Care to guess the reason... employee relations. Happy employees mean productive employees that in turn treat your customer base right by delivering a safe, friendly and professional product. Gordon and his crew understand this and that is why pay cuts will be the last source of cost reductions you see at CAL. If you keep bleeding the employee groups for cost saving you loose the one productivity tool that is your number one key to success, a happy and motivated worker.
Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
 
wgw2707
Posts: 1110
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:37 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:44 pm

I think management should take a 15% pay cut along with their pilots. The CEO's and CFO's of this world making millions of dollars that they do not deserve should take a solidarious pay cut. Laborers, you should not back down to management. For years, companies wasted away at their bursary and now YOU are being forced to pay. If an airline like Delta where to collapse (which is highly unlikely), then a new airline would arise and take its place. All these airlines do is complain and complain, while the customer has been and continues to be subjected to substandard service and higher than necessary fares.

Such quasi-socialistic "I deserve the same pay as the CEO" thinking will get the employees nowhere. Delta and US Airways WILL collapse if savings are not made as soon as possible. US Airways MUST have $700 million in the bank this summer, and they MUST be profitable by 2005. Otherwise, it's back to Chapter 11, or worse, Chapter 7. Delta has a huge loan payment coming up this fall and from my understanding will have only half the cash it had coming into 2004 at the end of the year. That kind of negative cash flow is unsustainable, if it continues by 2006 DL will be out of cash and out of business. Both companies are in a crises.

It will do no good at all for the employees of US and DL to refuse these cuts in salaries. They must accept these cuts, becuase the simple economic facts indicate that unless these cost reductions are made, both companies WILL go out of business. The petty greed of the IAM mechanics at Eastern, who were filled with such similiar socialistic propaganda in the union war against management, killed the company. Airliners.net has several former Eastern employees who lost their jobs between 1989 and 1991, I'm sure they'd be more than happy to tell you how much fun going through that was. Anyone can see the eerie parallels between the situation at Eastern in the 1980s and the situation facing Delta and US Airways today. Hopefully though, we will have learned from our mistakes, and the employees will realize that if they want to benefit from working for a great company such as Delta or US Airways, sometimes they must contribute something back to their employer. It's a question of mutual aid and social responsibility.

So let's just set aside these pointless "Power to the People!" arguments and focus on the economic facts shall we? DL and US will go bankrupt unless savings are made, and the employees of both companies unfortunately have to give up something. Not much, but they must contribute. Otherwise they, and everyone else associated with their companies, will stand to loose everything. It's that simple.

-WGW2707
 
Guest

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:53 pm

DL's pilots make anywhere from 20-28% more than any other airline across the board in like aircraft. Nearly twice as much as a CO pilot on some birds.

Crew Block Hour Costs:

737-300/700
DL $1024
CO $ 549

MD-80
DL $910
CO $554

737-800/900
DL $1100
CO $ 697

767-200
DL $954
CO $705

757-200
DL $1050
CO $ 560

767-400
DL $926
CO $700

777-200
DL $ 1667
CO $ 942

Are DL pilots doing anything different than the CO pilots are? I would would argue the CO pilots are the ones actually doing more, and for less money They've face the loss of a company and survived. Makes all the difference int he world.




 
wgw2707
Posts: 1110
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:37 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 3:13 pm

BoingGoingGone raised a critical point-the disparity of pilot wages at Delta vs. those at the other airlines. There is nothing DL pilots do that their brethren elsewhere do not. So one clearly sees that this is clearly the area where Delta needs to cut costs the most.

CoA, admittedly having no clue as to DL's financial position you would not realize that CO had lower cost structures than DL at the time of the downturn and was better off in certain regards. At that time DL appeared to be better off due to its larger size and fantastic position, and consequently it was difficult for management to bring the wages into line with industry standard with such an elevated public image of the company. CO on the other hand had a much more viable cost structure, as is now evident, and was in a completely different position pre-9/11 anyway. After 9/11, they were able to reduce costs quickly using a wide variety of means not related to staff salaries, and it was indeed fortunate that they were able to do this. This does not by any means show that Delta and US Airways can or should do the same thing.

Their problems are completely different than CO's were. Under Bethune, CO was recovering from a series of crises, bankruptcies and mismanagement in the late 80s and early 90s, DL on the other hand was a classic example of a network carrier being unable to turn itself around in an economic downturn and being caught on the point, and US Airways was a company plagued for much of its history by huge inefficiency. So the realities are quite different at the three airlines.

-WGW2707
 
afay1
Posts: 1206
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 2:37 pm

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 3:16 pm

Decent service would also help Delta survive. It's called Deltaflot for a reason...
 
wn700driver
Posts: 1475
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 10:55 pm

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 3:25 pm

Like passively getting ripped a new rear-end hole? There's unions for a reason- to keep management's snotty hands off of the employees. There needs to be some unilateral cooperation...not just blind submission to mgmt.

Another great reason never to work for an LCC, unless of course you are young, single, & looking for hours in a T-fan. Certain companies who shall remain nameless may purport to be employee friendly, but never trust ANY company that refuses a perfectly qualified new hire for no reason other than that new potetial hire has experience at a union company.

As for the topic, there is no question that DL drivers make more than the averace by quite a leap, but 15% (If that is the correct fig.) is not to much to ask. Even if that comes to pass, you can bet my resume will find its way to DL soon. Just a little perspective there.
As for management giving some too, well, I will refer you all to the case of the goose V gander.
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
QF744
Posts: 327
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 3:05 pm

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 3:31 pm

WGW2707,

do you work in management in one of the two airlines?

IT'S ALL ABOUT THE UPPER DECK
 
wgw2707
Posts: 1110
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:37 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 3:50 pm

QF744,

No, and if I did, I probably wouldn't be able to (for various legal reasons) post such a topic on this website. I am an enthusiast with a knowledge of aviation history urging employees of Delta and US Airways to accept pay cuts if management asks, and to urge them to realize the highly tenuous financial position their respective companies are in. I care about the employees of Delta and US Airways, and this whole situation is looking eerily similiar to that of Eastern Air Lines in the 1980s. I don't think the EAL scenario is something any educated member of airliners.net would like to see repeated. It's neccessary for employees to see beyond their own pocketbooks and agree to concessions, to ensure the future of their careers in the long run. If you want a recent example of what happens to the employees when a great airline goes under, look no further than TWA.

-WGW2707
 
DeltaGuy
Posts: 3965
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 5:25 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 3:57 pm

Hey, why don't we just go hand this thread to DL's gate guard and ask em to go take this over to Gerald  Yeah sure ...I'll even use my nonrev benefits to hand carry it, I'm sure they'll listen..

Such quasi-socialistic "I deserve the same pay as the CEO" thinking will get the employees nowhere. Delta and US Airways WILL collapse if savings are not made as soon as possible.
No, pilots don't deserve as much as the CEO, but at the same time, asking management to actually LEAD by example isn't asking for too much...you can't be like Clinton, on your fat arse, but you gotta be more like a Gen. Patton...out there giving an example (ok, a rough analogy) I do appreciate Grienstein's gesture of capping his salary at 500K...that move shows that he isn't just a ruler in a high throne..but it is still far more than most pilots make anyways. So no, there's not a "same pay" attitude. Asking Leo and Reid and all those other morons to give back their mega-huge bonuses was not unreasonable in the least...and if you ask me, that started a huge grudge still held by ALPA...and it's going to take alot of rebuilding to gain employee's trust back- would be nice to have CO and SW's enthusiasm combined.

I agree with Scootertrash and MSYTristar...it will take alot more to heal the company's wounds and bad decisions...15%, 30%, whatever, it's not the total solution. And think about it...there's only a handul of guys flying the 8 777's out there, pulling $250K + salaries...if they take 30% say, that brings em to $175K-ish....as opposed to the junior 732 F/O in his 5th year (who, by the way, is bairley hanging on, as his 5 years bairley keep him there) makes around $80k-ish, and a 30% cut from that would be $56K....big difference for the junior guy. This is before taxes, mind you. The paycuts should be pro-rated (nothing against the widebody guys)...but the brunt will be felt the most by the narrowbody junior guys- who haven't quite hit millionare status yet....and nevermind what other airlines are doing guys, so leave that alone.

Management at both Delta and US Airways are calling for what I am advocating here: that employees be willing to make concessions. From my understanding the pilots at Delta and the FAs and mechanics at US Airways so far haven't even been willing to sit at the table and discuss this matter.

You do sound like you've had too much coffee from the management pot today....you sound like those brainwashed Delta pilots that send out those emails to DALPA members, proliferating managment trash and ideas and asking their brothers to jump on the bandwagon. Also, Delta pilots HAVE communicated with management...they're just at a stalemate. I can't say for sure what the UsScare guys are doing, so I won't start...and try being the family of a DL 732 FO who just got off of an 8 month furlough who ALREADY lost half his salary from displacements...these pilots (like many, I know) aren't only getting done over salary wise, but also displacements, so there's even more money to be lost...by the way, my father's furlough was announced about the same week as management pay raises were...gee, where's the tact in that? I'd like to think there's a Delta there one day when some of us are looking for jobs.....

Where's Bucky707 and MD88Captain when we need em?  Sad

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
User avatar
Bruce
Posts: 4935
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:46 am

Re: Delta Pay

Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:07 pm

Judging by the Crew Block Hour list above, DL is 65% to as much as 95% higher than CO. I'm not sure what that equals for each member's pay level but I do think there is room for DL to come DOWN and yet still be the industry pay leader.

Even to a layperson, those numbers above do seem out of whack.

I wonder what the DL management pay is compared to the industry? out of whack also?

I think it is BOTH pilots and management that must come down, not ONE group.
Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
DeltaGuy
Posts: 3965
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 5:25 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:17 pm

Thank you Bruce...nice to see some support on this side!  Big thumbs up I'd like to think DL pilots could still retain their edge on pay.....

Alrightey.....name a way to save Delta money..just for kicks. Mine: fuel savings.

Being an Aviation Management major doesn't make me think like management..on the contrary actually, I keep on the other side of the fence..just thought I'd add that lol.

DeltaGuy  Smile
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
QIguy24
Posts: 2744
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 1:13 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:43 pm

I agree with most of you guys.. It's not only the employees that has to make a paycut. The management should do that as well.. We just had this problem in SAS. And everyone agreed on a paycut. Even here the management had a paycut on 15%. So they have saved them self on the finish line.

And for save money, things like fuelsavings and more efficiency is a very high priority for an airline to succeed. So this is definitely some of the best things to start out with.

 
N6376M
Posts: 2310
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 12:54 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:00 pm

As a shareholder in Delta, the attitude of the pilots makes me just sick. You work for me (or at least you're supposed to). This "full pay to the last day" BS is what brought down Eastern and will either result in DL going into bankruptcy or (unlikely) DL going belly up.

You are overpaid relative to the industry (as the numbers above and many other widely available figures show) and the justification that you were overpaid in the past so any change from that is unacceptable is horse$hit.

The market dictates salaries, not just for pilots, but for everyone else in the world. When a company in highly competitive industry has a cost structure that is out of line with its competition, it eventually goes bankrupt - that's not me saying it - it's an absolute certainty.

Now I don't defend the ridiculous compensation of mgt - thelr salaries need to be substantially cut as well. But until DL brings its cost structure under control you move closer to BK every single day. Finally the argument that a 20% cut now will be followed by at 30% cut later is valid. But the alternative is a 60% cut later all in one swoop at BK.

At the end of the day both DL's pilots and mgt have failed me and my fellow shareholders. You pilots aren't the only ones facing financial consequences.
 
FlyGuyClt
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:23 pm

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:37 pm

IF, and that is a huge word. IF, you are a successfull management team, people do what you do. Not what you say. With that said, as an airline employee for neither of the mentioned airlines. My opinion is this. I don't know of one airline employee that would not make a serious sacrifice to keep their company in the air and return to profitability. But, there are two important things here to remember.

1. Is management going to get "huge" or any bonuses for getting paycuts? If so, my opinion is, that is a pyramid scheme. After all. Everyone has to be on the same page to get things done.

2. What are the clear cut business plans to SQUASH the competition? I mean. Not just drive there invading fleets out of the market. But SQUASH them. That would insure my future, my retirement, and the company that I choose to work for. While I appriciate people need good fares to fly. Value of service. People can not live on $21,000 a year and retire in 40 years. The customer should get a fare that is fair, a service that is dependable, and the employees should not have to share an apartment with 4 to make ends meet.

Safe Flying All  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
canoecarrier
Posts: 2569
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:20 pm

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:01 pm

I sit here reading these posts from WGW2707 and think of him as a grade school kid playing the game of "Life" It all seems so real to you doesn't it? Where are you at the negotiating table, where has your personal lifestyle come into question in these talks. I see a lot of very respectable professionals weighing in and what are your credentials? Transport historian/archivist!

I've been around this industry for a long time, and watched friends of mine start out making crap pay teaching students how to fly, working their way thru the pilot ranks to make decent pay. Do DL pilots make more than the industry average, sure, does that mean that every employee should take a pay hike to even the scale, absolutely not.

You see what you don't know, is that experience is worth a lot. I'll use one of mine to illustrate, apparently you don't have these. A good friend of mine was almost broke after getting his CFI, worked for 3 years as a charter pilot, just paying the bills. Years later, he was a check airman for a now defunct airline. Average his salary over a 10 year period and you'd probably be pretty satisfied that he wasn't being overpaid.

Ignorance is bliss. One of the things I've grown to distaste on this forum is that those that do really know what's going on in the airline industry, have to put up with ignorance. Walk a mile in our shoes.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
artsyman
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:07 pm

It is not addressed to the flight attendants, ground personnel and other staff of Delta Air Lines who have already had to accept huge paycheck reductions.
*******

No offense, but you really have been way off in most of the figures and opinions you have presented in this thread. For starters, the above comments, which make for the basis of your topic are completely wrong.

The flight attendants have had ZERO paycuts, and at this time are also higher paid than virtually the entire industry, yet you commented and I quote that the flight attendants have had "HUGE paycheck reductions". As far as I am aware, I do not know of any of the Delta employee groups that have had any form of pay cut. Almost all of the airlines have had some benefit adjustments since 9.11 and the various other causes of the downturn took affect. At CO, there has been benefit adjustments also.

It is clear something needs to give with the pilots, no one is debating this, not even the DL pilots, they just feel that the cuts should be made across the board, with everyone sharing in the cutbacks, not just them.

I am no Delta lover, and topics like this are good discussions, but as a crew member, I would expect you to start topics based on facts and not completely erroneous statements like above.

J

[Edited 2004-03-25 14:13:21]
 
ifly2eat
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:18 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:42 pm

Wait I get it. We should fly planes for free because we love our jobs!
Fly the friendly skys and stay out of mine.
 
N6376M
Posts: 2310
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 12:54 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:03 pm

Ifly2eat -

No, you should fly planes for what the market says you should be paid. If you don't think that's enough, then you should find another (higher paying) line of work.
 
Guest

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:18 pm

I love pilot responses to these threads. It's a plane, a plane is a plane, pay me to fly it. Damned the cost!!!

It's about your production value to the company. If the unit cost for you is 2 or 3 times higher than it is at the competition, you are out of market and over paid. It does not mean that because you have more experience that you are therefore more valuable. For every pilot that complains about pay, there is a younger, likely smarter and possibly more capable pilot willing to take your job for less play.
 
kanebear
Posts: 852
Joined: Tue May 28, 2002 12:06 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:24 pm

CanoeCarrier, that standard of living is definitely going to suffer if DL goes bankrupt or goes under, isn't it. I'm part of a family-owned business that's going through some rough times. I haven't had to take a paycut yet but have already had that talk with my wife about how close that day is. If need be, I'll sell the house, sell the cars, downsize and do what it takes to keep this place running. Why? Because 850 families directly and countless thousand indirectly feed and clothe their families based on this enterprise. Because things eventually will get better (g-d willing) and we can grow again. I certainly would not bang on about lifestyle when the alternative is being out on the street looking for a job. Do you think you'll be able to match what you'd make even less 30% elsewhere?
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:24 pm

I think management should take a 15% pay cut along with their pilots. The CEO's and CFO's of this world making millions of dollars that they do not deserve should take a solidarious pay cut.

THIS is where the problem lies: the CEO wages. CEO's who make millions, all they do is sit on their butt and look out the window and watch planes go by, thats all they do they dont do anything. Theres no reason for a CEO to make that much. If all CEO's for the airlines had a salary cap like in professional sports then the aviation world would be a much better place. Everyone should pitch in and help their respective employer no matter what work group you are in. I hope no one loses their jobs, but you gotta do what it takes if you want to still be having a job. Not much you can do. You snooze, you lose. Thats reality.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
sv7887
Posts: 1259
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 7:31 pm

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:36 pm

Hi All,
Interesting thread. I'll be up front, I'm just a student pursuing an Economics degree..But like everyone I'm entitled to an opinion. I agree with the position that Delta's pay scale needs to be more aligned with those of the industry. But I can see the view of the employees. Where is Management's Accountablility? Why is it that CEOs who are screwing up the company get golden parachutes? If they want the Unions to play ball, why don't they take a pay cut too? 15% is going to hurt a young pilot alot more than some VP making 100K+ per year. It's a double standard.
With the current state of the industry, I hardly see any room for more bickering. The employees clearly don't have faith in their management, for good reason. Blame the pilots all you want for their above average wages, but it is Management's responsibility for the Business plan. This post ought to be addressed to the Management of Delta and US Airways and not the employees. Let's hope everything works out for both airlines.

SV

 
ord
Posts: 1356
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 1999 10:34 pm

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:44 pm

"THIS is where the problem lies: the CEO wages. CEO's who make millions, all they do is sit on their butt and look out the window and watch planes go by, thats all they do they dont do anything. Theres no reason for a CEO to make that much. If all CEO's for the airlines had a salary cap like in professional sports then the aviation world would be a much better place."

It's called supply and demand. The free market dictates what a CEO makes in any industry. To have a salary cap, again in any industry, is ridiculous. This is a free market-based economy.

As for your sports analogy, that makes no sense. CEOs are individuals. No individual player in any sport is limited in his salary potential. The cap applies to a team as a whole. And that is to promote parity so no team becomes a dynasty (in theory). If you want that in the airlines then you'd have to look at rergulation, which would put airlines on somewhat equal footing akin to what sports try and do.
 
N6376M
Posts: 2310
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 12:54 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Fri Mar 26, 2004 12:01 am

ORD,

In theory I agree that the free-market dictates wages, but in practice I think that this isn't necessarily true in the corporate board room.

In order for supply and demand to set prices, there can be no artificial externalities that factor in. I think that the last couple of years have shown us just how much a privileged boy's club the CEO suite has become.

Board members scratch each other's backs protecting their own. There are significant barriers to entry into the corporate boards of these organizations. You typically need to be very politically connected within the organization or amongst the major shareholder groups. This means that some very capable people, perhaps even more capable than the current occupants never get a chance to participate, therefore the "supply" of potential senior mgt executives is kept artificially low.

The fact of the matter is that neither management nor employees are accountable to shareholders any more. Corporate boards set up all sorts of defenses against wholesale house cleaning, like staggered election of directors. Contribution of corporate stock in 401(k) and other retirement plans creates an immediate conflict of interest between employee-shareholders and other shareholders.

Why, because an employee-shareholder stands to benefit either through higher wages or through appreciation of the stock. However, the relationship is not one to one. This is to say, for every dollar in increased wages or benefits the employee-shareholder receive, his individual wealth is increased by one dollar. However, for every dollar of wage or benefit he doesn't receive, the impact on EPS is infinitesimal. Therefore, a "rational" employee-shareholder will always seek to maximize his wealth through direct compensation instead of indirect capital appreciation. This means that the employee plans have a bias that favor not the long-term interest of all shareholder but instead only the interest of their constituents, which as explained above, are furthered best by higher wages and benefits.
 
ifly2eat
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:18 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Fri Mar 26, 2004 12:04 am

N6376m,

Since you seem bent on replying directly to other members directly, here goes mine. A incredible amount of my friends have done just what you suggest- went to other careers. My company does pay me a fair and high enough wage. What I do not like is these marginally funded companies with poor management continually coming to employees (pilots and everyone else) asking for money to sure up their incompetence. How is it that the LCC's are making money but USAirways, United, Delta et al. are not? I do think it does show a bit of your arrogance to suggest that a professional airline pilot "just walk away" from his/her career. Do you think we walk into a line in high school marked "airline pilot" and we are instantly transformed into a Boeing Captain with 8,000 hours of flight time? Its takes years and years to get a well paid airline job. Frankly, it infuriates people in our professional when long standing airlines with rich history are made to be "has beens" by megalomaniacs put into management positions. I like how pilots are told, "if you don't like it leave." How about we say that to the doctors who are facing high malpractice insurance rates? I never hear that but an equally proud and professional group like pilots are told to do that. Give me a freakin break!

[Edited 2004-03-25 16:07:40]
Fly the friendly skys and stay out of mine.
 
N6376M
Posts: 2310
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 12:54 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Fri Mar 26, 2004 12:25 am

Ifly2eat,

In case you haven't been reading the papers, doctors are leaving the profession in scores. Run a google search.

Your argument seems to be based on the notion that someone (be it the airline, mgt, possibly the government) OWES you a job. I'm sorry but that's not how it works. You do your job, you get paid. If you don't like what you're going to be paid, then don't do your job or do it for someone else.

The reason why there isn't a line for Boeing Captains with 8,000 hours of flight time is that there really isn't a need for that. Are you telling me that a Captain with 4,000 of flight time is not competent to do what you are doing. While obviously the extra 4,000 hours gives you more experience, the vast majority of what you know at 8,000 hours, you knew at 4,000 hours. Simply stated, the market isn't willing to pay a premium for the extra 4,000.

-76M
 
isitsafenow
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:22 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Fri Mar 26, 2004 12:34 am

Industries have changed. Manufacturing has turned to labor in China and Mexico. Airline Pax have gone to low fairs or carriers with "deals".
The problem is that the big six is not structured to keep these low fares around for long periods of time. The what I call "el-cheapos" can.
Song doesn't work. It wont work. As run today, it cant work.
Define Work......It means Make profits
Every time a Delta cockpit crew watches an airTran plane taxi by them, the crew needs to understand this. That plane is carrying our pax and there goes some of our retirement money. Look at it that way. Its call competition. That's a word pilots are not familiar with. They leave that to the brass at ATL to worry about. Problem is that the problem of $$$$ is trickled down to people like SCOOTERTRASH. With his attitude, he will never grasp the brass ring of life. He wont play ball. He will drive weedwackers all his life. Sad isn't it?
I look at the industry different then most people that post here. I see a business. Figures, dollars, money. The color of the paint on the plane means nothing. Actually, the plane means nothing. It's how money is made.
The kid with the opening quote is smart. He understands how the game of life and survival is played. His percentage on wage cuts is a little steep unless he figures benefits WITH a wage reduction.
I read a post a few weeks ago that a flight attendant made. The person said he/she would allow work changes to allow more flexibility for the company and slightly increase work hours per month but NOT a wage cut. If I was the airline, I would take that deal in a New York minute. This employee shows that compromise can work.
DL pilots need to take the lead here in an attempt to get black. A 400 million dollar drain in 90 days is not good. Sooner or or later the company will run out of money...No payroll, no flights...That spells shut down...i.e. Eastern and Braniff one...and two.....and Braniff three....Pan Am
I like DL and fly 15 to 20 thousand actual miles with them each year. I don't do El-Cheapo's because I dance with the people who brought me......NW,DL, UA and once in a while, CO. DL, your pax are trying to tell you something. Compromise and negotiate. The "no way in Hell" attitude isn't going to work, so don't play that card. airTran will diminish if you work at it. Otherwise, they will hammer you good. Business-wise,they are off to a good start.

safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
flyingdoctorwu
Posts: 271
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:42 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Fri Mar 26, 2004 2:23 am

In case you haven't been reading the papers, doctors are leaving the profession in scores. Run a google search.

That my friend is unfortunately true.... especially OB/GYN and Neurosurgery... just try having a baby in 5 yrs... or brain surgery... good luck with that...

Just a question: how many FA's, mechanics, pilots, etc etc have been laid off or have been furloughed? I'm sure that they would have been willing to take a pay cut to still have a job. Economics dictates that one cannot always expect to retain the same quality of life- an industry (or a company) must be able to adapt to the changing environment... if not then someday you'll wake up and find yourself in a world of trouble. Ask the Big 3- sure they are making money (at least Ford/GM) but they are all playing catchup to the Japanese... Heck Toyato has been passed Chrylser... The point is the most efficient company out there will win and every little drop of efficiency must be wrung out of the towel sopping with fat.

Christopher Wu
 
jbmitt
Posts: 494
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 3:59 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:25 am

There was mention that Delta Connection is the only part of Delta making money. Can somebody confirm my hunch, that they are only making money based on the lucrative per departure contracts with Delta?

To me it seems as if their profit, comes from Delta and adds to their loss. So ultimately it seems as if the profit they post is cloudy, and really means nothing.

If I'm wrong, please correct me.

jbmitt
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5272
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:33 am

You're correct, Jbmitt. DL Connection's "profits" are very cloudy to say the least. As long as mainline DL is losing money, those "profits" at DL Connection are pretty meaningless. If DL eventually goes BK, so will the wholly-owned DL Connection carriers.

 
comaircvg
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:21 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:41 am

Is there any rumors about hostile take-overs of either Delta or US Airways? I am a Comair employee and I have been hearing rumors of a Delta bankruptcy for years now, but I have never heard of a possible take-over.
Love to Fly
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12423
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:53 am

One of the biggest problems for 'Legacy' carriers vs. almost all of the LCC's are the costs of pension/retirement plans. Many companies when they cut back on employees are usually left with the oldest/most senior ones who have a lot to lose if leave and are working until they reach the 'magic numbers' of age and time with the airline. Unfunded or underfunded pension liabilities are often one of the largest debts that many airlines have. Most younger employees or those with LCC's are in 401(k) programs that are their own responsibilty, not the debt of the airline/employer.
Another problem is the excessive pay, benefits and pensions of the executives. How much money is the CEO of a money-losing enterprise worth? Cleraly when some businesses have been in trouble, they too took a cut or cap on the money or benefits. This may take action by the SEC, or by workers getting the info from the SEC reports or make these co's open their books. As to pilot salaries, this is a difficult problem as productivity is limited due to federal hours limits and the limited number of experienced qualified people. But some of them too, like some at Delta, must face the reality of the market and of continued employment and accept some pay cuts and benefits cuts rather than the mechanics, rampers, f/a's and the many lower/middle level employees.
 
ScooterTrash
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2001 10:39 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Fri Mar 26, 2004 4:29 am

Isitsafenow:

This comment is really far off the mark:

Problem is that the problem of $$$$ is trickled down to people like SCOOTERTRASH. With his attitude, he will never grasp the brass ring of life. He wont play ball. He will drive weedwackers all his life. Sad isn't it?


My Attitude? Which attitude is that? You say that I won't play ball. I think that I have. I have given up money and worked as hard as the Federal Aviation Regulations will allow. I single engine taxi to save money, I use the APU only when necessary to save money, I pick up trips and endure many more minimum rest overnights than should probably be allowed by law. Meanwhile, I have watched my leadership squander away vast amounts of cash on a systemically inefficient airline while making enormous salaries... All while accomplishing nothing to ensure my company's future. They don't ask the employees what we need to make this thing work, and believe me, the employees know. Instead they preach the same tired song of wage and benefits. And Nero fiddled while Rome burned...

Fella, I have played ball and continue to play ball. Heck, I might even consider concessions if management would supply me with something representing a cohesive business plan. What I make (about 35K or so) as an Express pilot at U group is not at all out of line... If anything I am underpaid. The mainline pilots' current level of compensation is not out of line with the likes of WN. What is really needed there is more productive work rules. The mainline employees may not like it, but if anything is broken at the employee end of things that is it. The wages are NOT the problem.

You write an entertaining post, sir. But you have absolutely no earthly idea what you are talking about.

Scooter
 
coa764
Posts: 309
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:32 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Fri Mar 26, 2004 4:44 am

Hi All,
Interesting thread. I'll be up front, I'm just a student pursuing an Economics degree..But like everyone I'm entitled to an opinion. I agree with the position that Delta's pay scale needs to be more aligned with those of the industry


Just remember that after you get your degree not to accept a position in a company that pays you more that of others you know. If you do run across one that wants to pay you 15-20% higher than the rest be sure to negotiate that salary down so that you can be more in line with others in you field, after all that is "fair".

DAL pilots get paid what they do because that pay was negotiated and agreed on by both parties then signed into a contract. Company officers have contracts as well and in the past, when it came time to settle up, companies have paid out millions to exiting CEO's because of it. Bottom line is that if the company officers expect that pilots to re-negotiate their contract for lower pay then they themselves should openly do the same,

[Edited 2004-03-25 20:54:10]
Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
 
I LOVE EWR
Posts: 803
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 6:07 am

RE: An Appeal To Employees Of Delta And US Airways

Fri Mar 26, 2004 4:46 am

WGW2707 do you have a job? If so why don't you take a 50% cut in pay? Think about how that would affect you.

Better yet put yourself in the shoes of a family of 4 were as both parents work for either Delta or USAirways. Think about the effect a 50% pay cut would have on that family.