A330323X
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WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:13 pm

On today's US Airways video presentation, Dave Siegel said, "Southwest is coming to Philadelphia in May. They just announced today more flying in June and July, a new set of cities."

Sounds like Dave knows something that the rest of us don't--as well he should--and it sounds like he let the cat out of the bag. As far as I know, WN didn't make any announcements today. Anybody know what Dave's talking about?
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
swacle
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:21 pm

Nothing frim that I know about, but rumor has it that WN will have upwards of 80 flights from PHL by summer 05, so...
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DeltaMD11
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:52 pm

As it has been pointed out by a few people on here, WN has made moves at PHL that really haven't been seen before unless they intend on making an airport a large station. I have a feeling that PHL will come under WN fever fairly soon and quickly once they start serving here.
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
PHLapproach
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:01 pm

BN Service starts on May 9th, they plan to start off with 14 flights a day. WN will also be building about 4 new gates in terminal D. I believe most flights will be going to FLL, MHT and BWI many others also. But don't forget about Frontier coming in on May 23rd, I'm sure they won't be a threat to any body. I can't wait to basically see a different tail on every flight Big grin
 
canoecarrier
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:13 pm

WN has been pulling people out of various cities to make this start. Most WN employees are pretty excited about the start of service to PHL, don't be surprised if you see lots of added service from them out of PHL.

I talked to some local WN people about the start, and it seems a lot of their employees in cities that were, perhaps, overstaffed are going there. As WN is not an airline to add lots of new service to any one city or create service to more than a couple cities per year, it is a very big announcement and/or opportunity.

I think someone mentioned in another topic about PHL that WN is setting up their own provisioning/catering there. Something I would assume they limit to cities that are less than 30 flights a day, who knows what they have planned there, but I would imagine anything is possible.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
bnatraveler
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:40 pm

Of the 58 (59 airports) cities WN has, there are no more than 10 (I don't know the exact number) provisioning bases.

For WN to open a provisioning base at the outset is definitely new--I don't beleive that they have ever done that before. New Orleans *just* got a provisioning base and they have been there forever.

I don't know a city where they have less than 50 flights per day that they have a provisioning base--so guess where they are going!
 
PHLapproach
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Fri Mar 26, 2004 1:37 am

hmm, I see I made a mistake in my earlier post. I put BN instead of WN, opps.
 
usairways85
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Fri Mar 26, 2004 1:39 am

According to the Philly Inquirer Southwest was planning on making an announcement about PHL today. They said that Southwest planned to double it's service in PHL over the summer and add another 3 or 4 destinations.

Not surprising, we all know more Southwest expansion at PHL is coming. Just wondering if Southwest will really make an announcement today.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Fri Mar 26, 2004 2:51 am

There must be something WN sees at PHL that I don't. I flew there there in late February, on a MHT-PHL-Nassau route. My connecting flight from PHL-NAS was a 10:30am departure during a weekday...certainly not the 'peak' hour for departures. Anyway, we were among 17-20 jets in line for takeoff...on a spectacularly clear morning. Now, I know that WN depends on 'turn-time' to keep things in synch. One really late departure out of PHL cascades down the line, so that by the time that **one** jet ends its day, it could be HOURS late. Is this whole PHL thing doomed to wreak havoc on the WN recipe???
 
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drerx7
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Fri Mar 26, 2004 2:55 am

Not if Southwest's recipe is to destroy US Airways in Philadelphia. I agree about tha delays; PHL seems to be an odd choice--but once US is out there will be far less congestion and peak travel times. Things should become very interesting this summer.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
quickmover
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:12 am

Here it is.
Looks like armageddon.


Southwest Airlines Announces More Flights for Philadelphia; Aggressive Expansion Planned This Summer

......Effective July 6, 2004, Southwest will begin 14 additional daily nonstop flights to the following cities: Fort Lauderdale/Hollywood (one daily), Houston Hobby (one daily), Los Angeles International Airport (one daily), Manchester, N.H. (four daily), New Orleans (one daily), Raleigh/Durham (four daily), Tampa Bay (adding one nonstop for a total of two daily); and West Palm Beach (one daily).

As previously announced, Southwest Airlines will begin its Philadelphia service May 9, 2004, with a total of 14 daily nonstop flights to the following cities: Chicago Midway (three daily), Las Vegas (one daily), Orlando (three daily), Phoenix (one daily), Providence (five daily), and Tampa Bay (one daily).

 
wagz
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:15 am

The article in the Inky today also mentions US's arrival and departure pushes currently used, of which there are 4. In my experience, there will be a huge arrival cascade of US flights, then a huge departure bank of mainly US flights (which we were lucky enough to watch up on the A Parking deck on Sunday).

Our friend Dave mentioned restructuring those 4 banks of flights so that flights arrive and depart more smoothly now, instead of all at once. I beleive it was intended to reduce the ammount of manpower required, but it sounds like it might also help alleviate delays on the ground. That could definately be advantageous to WN.

The artcile also mentioned a WN announcement today along the lines of doubled service by July. I think someone else already noticed odd schedule changes for existing cities around that time as well (ie: way more than 30 minutes between flights, hinting that new flights would fill the gaps).

All in all, it should get very interesting around here soon.

EDIT: I just saw Quickmover's message. 28 daily flights in less than 2 months at PHL. Considering BWI started at 8 flights daily, this indeed looks like all-out war in PHL.

Joe Wagner

[Edited 2004-03-25 19:19:49]
I think Big Foot is blurry, Its not the photographers fault. Theres a large out of focus monster roaming the countryside
 
PHLapproach
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:39 am

Here is a little WN PHL route map with some starting prices and more cities to be served via PHL. http://www.southwest.com/cities/philadelphia.html
 
jeffie813
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:55 am

WN is great at jumping right into the fray.

here @ PBI, we already have two daily non-stops to PHL on US and FL has a daily non-stop to PHL also. i wonder if FL's flight will survive the "fight".
 
PVD757
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Fri Mar 26, 2004 5:35 am

WOW, no doubt they are trying to rid aviation of US now. WN has never grown a city this fast. I guess Siegel is right, they better right the US ship real soon or it's over...I hope it doesn't happen, but it just doesn't look too good for US right now...
 
USAFHummer
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Fri Mar 26, 2004 7:25 am

I find most fascinating the PHL-LAX service...Southwest vs. Frontier in this market...their first "head-to-head" battle so to speak...should be very interesting...

Greg
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DfwRevolution
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Fri Mar 26, 2004 7:39 am

Anyway, we were among 17-20 jets in line for takeoff...on a spectacularly clear morning. Now, I know that WN depends on 'turn-time' to keep things in synch. One really late departure out of PHL cascades down the line, so that by the time that **one** jet ends its day, it could be HOURS late. Is this whole PHL thing doomed to wreak havoc on the WN recipe???

From what I heard, WN will be operating out of the currently unoccupied terminal towards the end of the runways. This means after a Southwest aircraft lands, it can roll almost straight into its terminal, whereas a US aircraft must taxi the lenght to the runway back to the US Airways terminal. This signifcantly reduces WN's turnaround time and keeps them moving within their performance goals.

Has anyone from Philly heard this? I read this in the Dallas Morning news months ago, so I might be getting some of the details wrong  Big grin

Regards,
DFW
 
DeltaMD11
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Fri Mar 26, 2004 7:43 am

I too have noticed this Greg. I think it's going to basically be a battle of products when it comes to WN v. F9 PHL-LAX. They both have low cost structures so they should be able duke it out on the price front pretty closely to eachother (which is great because US and UA will have to lower their fares to LAX if they want to try to hang on). WN, you get a 73G with nothing special. F9, you get an A319 with PTV's and DirectTV. This battle will be one to watch.
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Fri Mar 26, 2004 7:55 am

I really do think that this is an attack on US. I would think that PHL-LAX, PHL-RDU, PHL-MHT, PHL-PBI, and PHL-FLL are all profitable (or not big losers) for US. This is really going to hurt US and can kill them if they don't shape up. I really don't hope it happens, but it doesn't look good for them.

But on the bright side, I'm happy to see WN expanding and giving the good people of Philly low fares to cities that have long had a monopoly by US.

JetBluefan1
 
DeltaMD11
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Fri Mar 26, 2004 8:01 am

DFW,
Actually you're kind of ass backwards there  Smile The main runway for landings at PHL is 27R, and I'm sure that WN will have no problem setting down on 35 if the winds are right. Anyways yes, 27R is the main runway for landing. The threshold of the runway starts basically a bit before Terminal F. By the time you roll out, you're already down to Terminal B or further (I'm using this reference point as general when landing in a 737/A320 aircraft or something comparable of size. US aircraft can turn right off of the runway and scoot right into Terminal A (or A-West for Int'l service), B or C. NW, HP, CO, UA, and DL have the longest taxi-back times (as will WN if they get stuck in a conga line trying to get back to D).

And it's always fun trying to get form Terminal D or E to 27L to take-off. If you're there in a high-traffic time, it's excruciating waiting to take-off as all of the departures are coming from every which way congregating on the taxiways in between the two runways. Oh it's a lot of fun.

[Edited 2004-03-26 00:12:54]
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Fri Mar 26, 2004 9:10 am

Actually you're kind of ass backwards there

Lol.. that's the last time I use the Dallas morning news for anything aviation related. Thanks for setting me straight.  Smile

Regards,
DFW
 
MD11LuxuryLinr
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Fri Mar 26, 2004 9:36 am

It's even better in crappy weather when the winds shift to the east. Arriving WN jets are going to have to leave 9R and take the long trek down sierra (passing lines of stacked up US jets on the taxiways waiting to cross 9L)and hold on echo. If they're lucky, there will be a heavy jet depart and they'll get to cross while the next is holding for the wake. For departing, they'll have to taxi waaaaaaaaay down to 9L and join the six dozen US craft already in line...

Good luck WN  Big thumbs up
Caution wake turbulence, you are following a heavy jet.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Fri Mar 26, 2004 9:50 am

...From what I heard, WN will be operating out of the currently unoccupied terminal towards the end of the runways. This means after a Southwest aircraft lands, it can roll almost straight into its terminal, whereas a US aircraft must taxi the lenght to the runway back to the US Airways terminal...

Well, that's all well and good when they are landing in a certain direction. But when they land in the OTHER direction that 'advantage' turns into a huge 'disadvantage.' And, you talk about landings. For every landing, you have a take-off, and the scenario I was describing has to do with departures. Now, as a resident of New Hampshire not far from MHT, I'm thrilled at us getting 4x daily to/from PHL. I hope it all works well. I have literally seen a WN jet STOP at its gate 30 seconds after touching down at MHT...that's 30 seconds after the wheels hit the concrete. That's incredible, but it's also something that'll never happen at PHL. Now, I realize that WN also serves other (even busier) airports...LAX to name one. I guess if they can make LAX work they can make PHL work. Go WN!
 
erj
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Fri Mar 26, 2004 11:13 am

There's an unoccupied terminal at PHL? I thought they were going to operate out of D, which as of Tuesday morning wasn't empty.

As a Philly resident, I only care that Southwest's arrival will force the other airlines to drop their fares. I don't plan to ever fly them out of PHL, but the competition should save me a hundred bucks or so from PHX on HP.

Now that I think about it, maybe the rapid expansion of WN in PHL could be political. US employs a lot of people there and Mayor Street and Governor (former Philly mayor) Rendell are very interested in making sure jobs stay there. Perhaps the plan is to replace the jobs that will be lost as US fails. Anyone second this theory??
 
ua815
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Fri Mar 26, 2004 11:31 am

When I was down at PHL last Saturday, the curbside check-in sign for Southwest (already up and illuminated) was at E. Wasn't ATA moved from E to A-East to make room for WN?
 
PHLapproach
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Fri Mar 26, 2004 9:11 pm

I think last Sunday I did see ATA was over at E, but the A-East is wrong they are not over there.
 
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tjwgrr
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Fri Mar 26, 2004 10:17 pm

PHL routes:

Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
usflt1778
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Sat Mar 27, 2004 1:19 am

ATA moved to Terminal A-East in January. Some of their signage is still in place at Terminal E (e.g., skycap counter at the curb) but they are long gone.

They have begun redesigning the Terminal E security checkpoint this week. The new circuit and walls are all outlined on the floor with tape but I couldn't really tell what it will look like. Eventually the combined D/E checkpoint will be built but that'll take time.

All the old TWA jetways have been removed and they have been reworking the interior of the terminal. WN will have one long desk across the end of Terminal E that will serve all their gates. They are also adding some new food places (Wawa food court express, I've heard). For the time being NW and DL will remain (plus AF departures and YX, which use DL space).

They are building an entirely new bag room for WN under the concourse (the area is currently open to the weather and used for storage of NW and DL ground equipment). It is under the security checkpoint area and is being enclosed with walls. All the new conveyor belts have been delivered and are sitting there awaiting installation.

The counter is also under construction. The old ATA space has been closed off with a wall and it'll be interesting to see the unveiling when the work is done.

Concerning the runway issue, it is interesting to see USAir using runway 17-35 *frequently* nowadays for 737/A320 flights. They know it is the intention of WN to utilize that runway for quick in/out and easy access to Terminal E so they are trying to mark their territory now. I notice this particularly during the late afternoon bank of flights when I'm in the terminal. They claim it is a new option to increase their own efficiency, however they have never done it before in all their years at the airport!
 
wagz
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Sat Mar 27, 2004 2:19 am

Alright, to make things a little clearer for my discussion: http://www.myairplane.com/databases/approach/NorthEast/PHL_.pdf
Hmmm, the forum software doesn't like this link, you'll have to copy and paste (sorry).

I've got a much better quality of that diagram (courtesy of my AOPA membership) hanging on my desk in front of me at all times!

Ok, 27R is the primary arrivals runway. I've seen US 737s hit the brakes and exit at Twy K3 once or twice. They usually roll out to the K4 Highspeed Twy. If the WN pilots touch down on the first 5 feet of concrete and slam on the brakes (and I wouldn't put it past them), they could take K3 and be right at Terminal D. If that's not good enough, I've seen a US 737 land on 35 a few weeks ago, and Paul Kanagie of PHL spotting fame has seen many more do the same.

Departures are more fun. 27L is used for departures primarily. Departing aircraft hit a bottleneck coming down N, and from both directions on S before everyone has to jog on N to the threshold of 27L. From the airport fire station I've counted backups of 25 aircraft like this. Paul has seen some 737s and A320s depart 35 already, so that's another option for WN for shorter flights.

If the winds switch, 9L is departures and 9R is arrivals. You'll notice how much farther the taxi is from 9R to Terminal D. While aircraft are lined up on K waiting to depart, arrivals can get stuck between the runways. WN is out of luck either way in this case. They could get lucky and use 17 for takeoff.

I hope this has been a revealing and enlightful look at the challenges WN will face in PHL  Smile.

Joe Wagner
I think Big Foot is blurry, Its not the photographers fault. Theres a large out of focus monster roaming the countryside
 
USAFHummer
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Sat Mar 27, 2004 11:11 am

I also think WN will use 27R for takeoffs as well when the arrival flow slows down as thats nice and close to E and avoids all the problems of 27L takeoff backups...

Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
DeltaMD11
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Sat Mar 27, 2004 11:30 am

I honestly don't see a problem with a 27R taekoff as long as you don't have another aircraft on finals and you have adequate spacing between someone on 27L. You'd have to wait for the 27L to go, then follow behind him, but you'd have to make a steep immediate bank right after cycling the gear b/c of the noise abatement right there.
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
OPNLguy
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Sat Mar 27, 2004 11:52 am

>>>If the WN pilots touch down on the first 5 feet of concrete and slam on the brakes (and I wouldn't put it past them),

Now, c'mon, do we really need this kind of stuff?  Insane
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
PHLapproach
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RE: WN Adding Cities From PHL?

Sat Mar 27, 2004 12:29 pm

Now I'm gonna keep this simple. WN will operate the same as all the other airlines in PHL, US, HP, ATA, FL, BA, LH, AF, DL, UA, NW, AA and others (sorry had to do that  Smile). They will Depart 27L and Arrive 27R (as for normal ops), as simple as that, they will not have special Twy routes for Depart or Arrival, No quick Highspeed Twy turn offs or anything along those lines. There that's what I think.

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