henpol747
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Will AF Buy A340-500?

Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:03 am


I have a question for you guys, is AF planning to acquire the A345?

 Confused
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Leskova
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Will AF Buy A340-500?

Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:07 am

I'd say the simple answer to that is: no.

They don't operate planes with RR engines, and as long as Airbus doesn't offer anything else on the A345, there's really little to no chance that they'll get some.

If AF really had demand for an ultra-long-haul aircraft at the moment, they'd most likely go for the 777LR - but I don't think that AF needs anything in that category at the moment.

Happy contrails,
Frank
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DfwRevolution
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Will AF Buy A340-500?

Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:07 am

I seriously doubt it. They have shown a preference for the 777NG in the form of a modest 777-300ER order, which share the GE90 powerplant with their 777-200ER. If Air France were to buy an Ultra-Long Range (ULR) aircraft it would most definitly be the 777-200LR.

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DFW
 
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solnabo
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Will AF Buy A340-500?

Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:09 am

AF to buy 15 B772LR.......*LOL*

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henpol747
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Will AF Buy A340-500?

Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:14 am

Thanks a lot for the info!!  Big thumbs up
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rjpieces
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Will AF Buy A340-500?

Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:31 am

I don't think there are any many routes from Europe that require the superlong range of the A345/772LR.
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Mir
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Will AF Buy A340-500?

Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:35 am

Nope, there aren't really. CDG is in the same position as London - it can reach almost every point on the globe that it has a market for, with the exception of Australia/New Zealand, nonstop. And even the 773LR couldn't make it to Australia from Paris without penalties.
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LVZXV
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Will AF Buy A340-500?

Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:52 am

I respect AF for maintaining a healthy Airbus & Boeing balance. But I've heard no news of them ordering A345s, although I know it can serve Paris-Papeete direct, which I'm not sure the 773ER can.

XV

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ConcordeBoy
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Will AF Buy A340-500?

Wed Mar 31, 2004 11:15 am

which I'm not sure the 773ER can.

It cannot.

TN doesnt feel that the A345 can either, to the point of satisfying the airline's expectant specs.
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FlySSC
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RE: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Thu Apr 01, 2004 1:15 am

LVZXV,

As mentionned above, AF has no intention to buy the A345.
AF is very pleased with the B772 and even studies the possibility to get rid of its A343 in a medium term to replace them by additionnal B772ER and A332.

There is no interesting destination for AF that its actual fleet can't reach nonstop, except Australia & Tahiti but there is also no aircraft actually on the market that could fly nonstop with no restrictions CDG-SYD or CDG-PPT or CDG-NOU. Add to this the engine problem (A345 are powered only by RR engines and AF's fleet is essencially GE/SNECMA engines). So no need for the A345.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Thu Apr 01, 2004 5:36 am

even studies the possibility to get rid of its A343 in a medium term to replace them by additionnal B772ER and A332.

While getting rid of those A343s is thankfully an eventual inevitability.... would be interesting to see if they threw a few A333 for USA East Coast and Africa in there. Doubt it, but still would be nice  Smile
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solnabo
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RE: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:25 am

Leskova:
Are you sure about that AF dont buy a/c with RR engines??
Rumour or fact? If its true thats crazy......  Nuts

Michael//SE
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FlySSC
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RE: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:28 am

The A333 and A343 are the same a/c, in term of capacity.

AF had already the oportunity to operate the A333 when merging with Air Inter in 1997 (IT was operating already 4 aircraft and had options on several planes), but AF decided finally to sell the planes (to Aer Lingus).

The A332 suits much better AF's needs, especially on the African network, to boost frequencies, it also has a great range. It's the perfect complement of the B772ER that is far more interesting to operate (for AF) than the A343. But AF operates 22 A343, and you can't replace 22 a/c like this in 6 months ! (moreover they are not very "old" ).

So, I really don't think we'll ever see an AF A333...


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Leskova
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RE: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:34 am

Solnabo, as FLYSSC also stated, AF's fleet consists of planes using GE/Snecma engines, and they've been sticking to that quite consequently (with the possible exception of Concorde).

If I recall correctly, Airbus had originally planned to offer the A318 only with the PW engine, but AF would not order it with that, but only with the CFMs.

So I guess that AF will not order anything with RRs (or PWs) under the wing, though I'm not sure if they've ever explicitly said this - but in this case, I'd say that the actions speak about as louds as words.

Happy contrails,
Frank
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Horus
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RE: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:35 am

I agree, I see AF's long haul fleet centre around the A380, B744 (passenger and freighter), B777 and the A332.

I've always wandered why AC operates both the A333 and A343
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Leskova
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RE: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:48 am

Horus, AC probably operates both types with the same reasoning that CX does: both aircraft have different characteristics that make them suitable for different types of routes (even though, admittedly, AC flies the A340s to Europe just as much as they fly the A330s over here - but the general idea probably remains valid - while CX flies the A333 on regional routes and the A343s on long hauls...).

Happy contrails,
Frank
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dutchjet
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RE: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:58 am

The A345 is not in Air Frances future, not is the 777LR, for the reasons stated above.

Re the A333s that AF inherited from Air Inter long ago, those aircraft were a whole different animal from the improved versions of the A333 available today - the new aircraft have a lot more range and versatility. The ex-Air Inter A333 ended up with AerLingus and Sabena: adequate for transatlantic service to the US east coast and, in SN's case, to some cities in Africa, but that was the limit.

It will be interesting to see what AF decides re its A343 fleet: AF, unlike many other carriers, consider the 777 and A343 different aircraft for different missions so it would be a change in thinking if the A343 fleet was replaced with a mix of the 777 and A332.
 
FlySSC
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RE: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:02 am

Air France is seeking to rationalize its fleet and spares as maximum as possible :

- on Short/Medium Haul : 2 a/c types now : B735 & A318/19/20/21 (all powered by GE/SNECMA) and by 2006 only one type : the A320 family.

Leskova is right : AF clearly said to Airbus they would not buy the A318 if it was only proposed with the PW engines.

On long-haul : B744 - B742/743 - B777 - A343 - A332 - all powered by GE/SNECMA with the purpose of an even more rationalized fleet by 2007/2008 : - B744 - B777 - and - A380 - A332 -
 
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American 767
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E: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Thu Apr 01, 2004 9:11 am

No I don't think Air France will order A340-500/600, one reason I can think of is the A340-500/600 isn't powered with GE or CFM engines. That is the main reason why they chose the B777-300ER over the A340-500/600, don't forget that the B777-300ER is offered only with GE power plant. Air France Industries has decided it would work only on engines made wholly or at least partially by GE. The A380 will be powered by Engine Alliance GP, a new joint venture between GE and PW.

Have you asked yourself why Air France never had 757's? I think it's because it was never offered with GE or CFM power plants.

Back in the 60's, they went for the 707 and the Caravelle, evengthough those used to be offered only with PW power plants, because those were at that time the only jets available that would suit best Air France's system.

Back in the 70's and early 80's, they went for the 727 and the 737-200 eventhough those used to be offered only with PW power plants, because they needed short and medium haul aircraft to cover their European and North African network and at that time the A320 family wasn't available. Neither was the B737-300/400/500.
In 1970, they went for the 747-100, which was also offered only with PW power plant, because they needed like all other major international airlines a widebody aircraft to cover intercontinental flights and it was then the only widebody aircraft available on the civilian aviation market when they ordered it.

FLYSSC, you have good knowledge and you seem to be a real source of info on Air France, but I would like to point out that the Classic 747's (200 and 300 Series) are likely to be retired before the A340's are, because they are older (older in age and more cycles) and because they still require a third cockpit crew member which the A340 doesn't require. However you're right about the fact that the A340's are next to go, and be replaced with a mixture of A330's and B777's. And don't forget that Air France has now two variants of the 777, the 200ER and the 300ER.

Ben Soriano
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Thu Apr 01, 2004 9:18 am

AF's fleet consists of planes using GE/Snecma engines, and they've been sticking to that quite consequently (with the possible exception of Concorde)

Concorde followed their trend as well. Though RR was the primary Olyumpus 593 producer, Snecma was also a major contributor.

http://www.concordesst.com/powerplant.html
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FlySSC
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RE: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:44 pm

American 767,

Of course the B742/743 will be retired before the A340 ! they are planned to retire by 2006/2007. As I mentionned many times before, they will be replaced on the "Sun/Leisure" destinations by the B744, while the B744 being itself replaced on its network by the B773ER and the A380.

The first A343 flew for AF in March 1993...only 11 years ago ! and AF uses 22 aircrafts of this type by now, so they will not be retired soon... even if AF would like to do so !
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:49 am

A332 not withstanding... would be interesting to see how AF reacts to the 7E7
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RE: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Fri Apr 02, 2004 7:24 pm

There was not long ago a press release in yahoo that Air France was not in talks with Boeing about the future 7E7 aircraft, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'll never buy it. They won't order the aircraft as launch customer because they don't need it now or in the near future but I'm sure they are thinking of it as a future addition to the fleet, perhaps for the mid 2010's. They probably don't want to announce yet to the public that they are considering it for long thin routes. Why would the media announce something like "Air France not in talks with Boeing about the 7E7", if Air France was not looking at it?
Back in the early 1990's when Boeing formally launched the 777 with initial orders coming from United and ANA, nobody knew Air France would order those afterwards.

Ben Soriano
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FlySSC
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RE: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:55 pm

I doubt AF would add another aircraft type to its fleet, as they are trying to rationalize it to the maximum...

Air France strategy is to develop its HUB at CDG. AF doesn't offer ANY long-haul flight from any other French city ( even the big cities like Lyon, Nice or Marseille ) which could justify a 7E7 order...

So for the moment, the A332 will offer the right capacity (40 Business / 179 Eco ) to AF on the thin routes with less traffic from CDG.

We'll see in 10 or 15 years....
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Sat Apr 03, 2004 4:09 am

That brings up another point.... is the 55m pax cap still applicable to CDG?
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airxliban
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RE: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Sat Apr 03, 2004 4:39 am

Have you asked yourself why Air France never had 757's? I think it's because it was never offered with GE or CFM power plants.

Really, was it just RR and PW?
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anxebla
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RE: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Sat Apr 03, 2004 4:40 am

About AF's 343....
Are they in leasing/hire or bought by AF?
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henpol747
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RE: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Sat Apr 03, 2004 4:44 am

AirxLiban:

you just got it wright, the question is: should the 757 had been provided with GE´s or CFM´s, would AF have bought it?

I´m sure FLYSSC can answer that question for us!

:D
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FlySSC
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RE: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Sat Apr 03, 2004 5:05 am

I am not sure that AF didn't choose the 757 just because of the engines : In a recent past, AF was operating some a/c powered by PW engines also (B741, B732 )...
Don't forget that AF was operating the A310-200 (210 seats)on its European network at that time, besides its A300 fleet, so I think THAT's why there was no real need for the B757...

When AF acquired the A310-300, they also modified their A312 to add fuel tanks and decided to operate them on the long-haul network , especially to Africa (A312) but also North America (A313 to IAD, YYZ, etc...). It was just after AF took over UTA and retired the DC10... and the A321 were on order then for the European network... while the A300 were progressively retired from the long-haul network and used exclusively on the big European routes... The decision to rationalize the fleet around the A320 family was taken at that time so there was definitely no place for another type of a/c.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Sat Apr 03, 2004 5:13 am

Reply #24, do you know the answer?
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FlySSC
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RE: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Sat Apr 03, 2004 5:19 am

What is exactely your question concerning CDG ? and what is the link with the 7E7 ?

Sorry, but I don't understand... Sad
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Sat Apr 03, 2004 5:34 am

Wasnt that difficult of a post, but...

Up until 2002 (that's when last I followed the goings-on), CDG was still subject to an agreement to cap its pax throughput at 55million passengers. This was well after the plans for a 4th [significant] Paris airport in the Somme area were put on ice.

There was much discussion that capping CDG's traffic would be a mistake, particularly as the British began to demonstrate more and more ineptitude in discussions for additional southern runways. I'm curious as to whether the cap has been officially lifted (as many expected it will be) or are negotitations still ongoing/stalled?
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FlySSC
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RE: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Sat Apr 03, 2004 5:59 am

The idea of a third "Parisian Airport", further north of Paris has been officially abandoned by the Government.
Various solutions are possible to extend the capacity of movement at CDG without building new Rnwy, like transferring part of the freight activity at Vatry, an airport especially designed and built to handle freight traffic, situated some 150km east of Paris but used by...NO airlines !!!

The limitation at CDG is just political, not geographical : There are thousands of acres around CDG available for expansion, additional Rnwy and terminals and some at ADP already begin to talk about a 5th and even 6th runaway, oriented north/south...

It will all be a political decision : the environment lobby is quite powerful, as well as the different associations of residents in the cities around CDG...
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Sat Apr 03, 2004 6:11 am

Nice info, but doesnt do a thing to answer my question  Big grin
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donder10
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RE: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Sat Apr 03, 2004 6:17 am

Flyssc,
any chance you could provide a copy of the AF African network from 2000,before SN went under,please?
 
gigneil
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RE: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Sat Apr 03, 2004 7:41 am

As has been well mentioned, the 757 was available with the CF6-32 but nobody significant took up the option.

N
 
Tom_EDDF
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RE: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Sun Apr 04, 2004 8:01 am

The engines make up for quite a significant portion of the aircrafts value and (including spares) can even exceed the value of the rest of the airframe. Snecma moteurs owns a significant stake not only in the joint GE/Snecma CFM56 program, but also the GE CF6 and GE90 programs.

This is probably one of the more important reasons why AF will never buy any jet aircraft powered by engines other than GE or CFM. Apart from that, they should be pleased with the performance of their 777's.
 
FlySSC
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RE: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Sun Apr 04, 2004 8:49 pm

Donder 10,

AF didn't add new destinations on its African network after SN (and SR) went down. Only Frequencies were added ( CKY, OUA, BKO etc...) or bigger aircraft were used to face the increase of traffic (ABJ, DKR ... )

The two new destinations were added this year : SSG (Malabo) and PNR (Pointe Noire).
 
Horus
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RE: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Sun Apr 04, 2004 9:06 pm

FLYSSC

That's true I remember reading that they pulled all the A310s, A300s and 767s out of Africa replacing them with A330s, A340s and 777s.
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FlySSC
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RE: Will AF Buy A340-500?

Mon Apr 05, 2004 1:54 am

Horus,

The A310 & B767 were serving almost exclusively African/Middle East destinations until they were retired in 2002/2003 *.

The A300 fitted with 3 Classes (F/C/Y) were reconfigured in a Business/Eco for the European network in the mid 90's and retired by the end of 1997.



* The last 3 A310 were retired in early 2002 : F-GEMD (A310-200), F-GEMO & F-GEMQ (A310-300)

The 2 last B767-300ER F-GHGI & GH were retired last year and sold to ZOOM Airlines & Transaero Airlines. They now operate as C-GZUM & EI-DBU


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