FLY777UAL
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747 Combi Aircraft

Sat Apr 03, 2004 11:13 am

With more 747-200 aircraft as well as -300 models being relegated to cargo duties, it made me wonder about the feasability of airlines using combi aircraft on low-density passenger routes.

For example, if an airline wanted to operate a 747 in combi-mode, would they have to have the main-deck cargo area stop at door 4, as found with EVA, KLM, etc., or would they have the option of increasing the cargo area as far forward as just aft of door 2 or door 3? [Thinking along the lines of if the airlines just left it as-is, with pretty much no "quick-change" option to complicate wiring, pipes, etc.]

With trans-oceanic range, the planes could at least take 150-175 Economy Class passengers, as well as 18-24 Business Class passengers. This would be similar to having the capacity of CO's 757's across The Pond, but with signifigantly more cargo...

Would it be possible and would airlines actually put it to use?

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eta unknown
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RE: 747 Combi Aircraft

Sat Apr 03, 2004 12:41 pm

I once flew on an Alitalia 747 Combi SIN-SYD where the cabin stopped after door 3- I think KLM operated some 747's like this as well for a time.
 
andz
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RE: 747 Combi Aircraft

Sat Apr 03, 2004 3:04 pm

SAA had 2 747-200 combis, one of which crashed into the Indian Ocean in November 1987 killing all aboard, one theory was that a fire in the main deck cargo caused the crash so the other one was converted to all passenger.
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canoecarrier
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RE: 747 Combi Aircraft

Sat Apr 03, 2004 3:18 pm

I could be wrong about the model, but I think EVA operates a 744 from TPE-SEA. I've worked the flight before, and always have been an admirer of combi aircraft. I hope they continue. A previous thread on here seemed to discount the future of combi's, but I do hope they continue.

I'm haven't seen any Airbus mods to combi's, but I'm sure EVA operates the 747. Given the high value and time sensitive products shipped from the orient, I would think there is some market for a plane that can carry 200 pax and a good load of cargo.
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L-188
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RE: 747 Combi Aircraft

Sat Apr 03, 2004 3:24 pm

The FAA has decided they won't certify and new combi aircraft, mainly because of the SAA crash.

So those out there now, are going to be the only ones left in the future  Sad
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LVZXV
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RE: 747 Combi Aircraft

Sat Apr 03, 2004 3:47 pm

L-188:

When did the FAA decide that? 744Ms and MD-11Cs were produced throughout the '90s.

XV

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PhilSquares
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RE: 747 Combi Aircraft

Sat Apr 03, 2004 4:53 pm

The FAA will certify them. The issue is there is a NPRM issued by the FAA as the result of the SAA crash. The proposed changes require a variety of things, but basically, you have to have either a dedicated fire fighter in the main deck cargo area or you have to have fire protection in the main deck cargo area. The aircraft aren't built with that, so the only option is a dedicated crew member.

That is why there are no combis flown into or out of the US and why no US airline has operated a Combi 747/MD-11. True Air Mike did operate some 727s in the combi configuration, but those were gone when the NPRM was issued.
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Boeing Nut
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RE: 747 Combi Aircraft

Sun Apr 04, 2004 1:48 am

I remember seing a seat map for an Atalia 747-200 Combi with the capability to carry 13 pallets on the main deck. The cargo started at door number three.
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dtwclipper
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RE: 747 Combi Aircraft

Sun Apr 04, 2004 1:51 am

Gee, that KL Combi I took from Chicago to AMS last month sure looked like a combi. At it was.
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dal777ams
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RE: 747 Combi Aircraft

Sun Apr 04, 2004 1:58 am

KLM....PH-BFO is a combi. I think several of there 747-400,s are combi,s.
 
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PW100
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RE: 747 Combi Aircraft

Sun Apr 04, 2004 2:57 am

KLM has a total of 23 744, 18 of which are Combi. All 18 are still being used in full Combi configuration, including many USA routes [JFK, LAX, IAH, ORD].


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I don't understand why a cargo fire on the main deck would be more worrying than a cargo fire in the lower deck cargo holds . . . .


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PhilSquares
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RE: 747 Combi Aircraft

Sun Apr 04, 2004 8:19 am

You're right about KLM and their combis. I have used them several times positioning to AMS, however, they were configured as all pax, no freight on the main deck. I am not sure KLM is using them in the real combi configuration to the US.

As far as a fire on the main deck, the problem is there is no fire protection, just fire detection.
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PW100
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RE: 747 Combi Aircraft

Sun Apr 04, 2004 8:25 am

As far as a fire on the main deck, the problem is there is no fire protection, just fire detection


All fine and well, but I still don't understand why main deck cargo [Combi] would not be allowed, while lower deck cargo [hold] would be acceptable??
I'm not sure if Combi aircraft have fire surpression on main deck. If not, it should not be impossible to modify the aircraft.

PW100
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RE: 747 Combi Aircraft

Sun Apr 04, 2004 8:48 am

In belly cargo fires (747) there is fire detection + protection. No fire detection or protection on main deck. The other problem, there is cargo classification, as far as dangerous goods. Some "cargo" is acceptable on cargo aircraft only. These combi are classified as passenger aircraft, precluding transportation of some items as it would be in regular cargo panes...
xxx
A combi airplane is not a good airplane when operated it passenger only configuration, it is nearly 7,000 kg heavier = higher fuel burn... I agree as to operating combis in 6 or 12 pallets configurations... but the FAA his very nervous about it.
xxx
When with PanAm, I flew 707s and 727s in combi configurations... one thing, the cargo was forward of passenger area... we had 727Cs and 707Cs with a cabin half cargo, and half passengers. In the DC-10 combi, cargo is forward as well. But the FAA does not like cargo in the rear... passengers forward, as it is in the 747s... The first people to operate 747 combis were Sabena, with their two 747-129s converted with a SCD. It was their design, actually.
xxx
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ltbewr
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RE: 747 Combi Aircraft

Sun Apr 04, 2004 10:00 am

I recall being on a 747 Combi on an Iberia flight Madrid-JFK in Dec. 1985. Recall sat in very front/nose area of a/c, in a coach seat.
Probably today in the US, major limits on Combis because cannot be absolutly sure of what in cargo in/out, including products that if shifted into each other would cause problems. Also since 9/11, fear that a cargo item could contain terror bombs, chemicals.
 
PIA747
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RE: 747 Combi Aircraft

Sun Apr 04, 2004 10:00 am

PIA currently operates Two B747-200 combis. They ply on the Karachi - Newyork JFK route.


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[Edited 2004-04-04 02:58:17]
 
GARUDAROD
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RE: 747 Combi Aircraft

Sun Apr 04, 2004 10:03 am


Andz-
I have news for you. GARUDA operated the other plane in combi mode for
3yrs on the CGK/DPS/BIK/HNL/LAX route. I used to be the Cargo manager for them at that point and loaded that plane all the time.

Philsquares-
Yes KLM does operate the Combi aircraft in Combi mode. They operate
daily to IAH and ORD with that aircraft. Cargo is very much a part of their
operational plan for the US.

KLM had two configurations for the Cargo on the Main Deck, a 7 Pallet
version or a 13Pallet version.
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behramjee
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RE: 747 Combi Aircraft

Sun Apr 04, 2004 10:05 am

Lufthansa has too around half a dozen or so B 744 Combis and yes Ive personally flown an EVA B744M SFO-TPE in Jan 2002.

I dont know if AF have any B 744Ms though they did have a few B 742Ms and I believe B 743Ms?

Air India currently too have 2 B 743Ms which fly to NRT and FRA.

Egypt Air too from what I recall had a B 743M as well as SWISS and VARIG.

Currently LH and KLM fly their combis too to major SE ASIAN routes like to CHINA-JAPAN-HKG etc where demand for cargo is vvv high.

You know what can be very successful if promoted properly...an A 380 Combi which can seat 400 in a 3 class layout and can carry around 50 tonnes in cargo!!!
 
alexchao
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RE: 747 Combi Aircraft

Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:18 am

EVA Air currently flies the 744M to SEA and EWR simply because they don't have enough 744s. In high demand seasons, some days are operated by the 744.

-alexchao
 
dtwclipper
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RE: 747 Combi Aircraft

Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:34 am

I remember very well, that they loaded cargo on to the main deck on KL 612 from ORD to AMS.

So, this should bring this U.S. anti-Combi thread to a close.
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fraT
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RE: 747 Combi Aircraft

Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:28 am

"Lufthansa has too around half a dozen or so B 744 Combis"
Not true. There are currently no 744 combis in LH's fleet.
 
SR 103
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RE: 747 Combi Aircraft

Mon Apr 05, 2004 1:27 pm

Not true. There are currently no 744 combis in LH's fleet.

Then care to explain to me what these planes are with the large cargo door behind exit 4L?

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Especially considering D-ABTA to D-ABTH all have "this" door, what would you call these planes if not combi's?

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brubiac
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RE: 747 Combi Aircraft

Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:16 pm

>>>The first people to operate 747 combis were Sabena, with their two 747-129s converted with a SCD. It was their design, actually.

Indeed Skipper, SABENA where the first ones the reconfigure there 747-100.

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fraT
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RE: 747 Combi Aircraft

Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:54 pm

At least LH does not use them as combis. On the main deck they are equipped with pax seats only.
 
DABZF
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RE: 747 Combi Aircraft

Sat Apr 10, 2004 8:46 pm

All LH combis -200's and -400's (can't remember the exact amount) were changed to full pax when Lufthansa Cargo got their first 4 MD11F's in 1998 or 1999. Because of the new rules wall between pax and cargo needed to be rebuilt more fire resistant LH decided to skip the combis!

Now LH has only -400's but some of them have the "old" SCD on them!

If I remember correctly LH combis were 7 pallet position versions.

LH is not flying any combis today... LH Cargo rely on belly capasity and their freighter fleet!
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