Pe@rson
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Air Wales To Drop CWL-BRU

Tue Apr 06, 2004 6:59 am

Just heard on the Wales new channel that Air Wales is to stop its CWL-BRU service from 14th April due to it being a "poor taker" (I understand that to mean it can't fill the seats at the required price). It will relocate resources to domestic routes. Any idea if it will add frequencies on current routes from the Welsh airport or start new ones?
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diesel1
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RE: Air Wales To Drop CWL-BRU

Tue Apr 06, 2004 6:57 pm

Disappointing news, but perhaps not unexpected given Air Wales' history on route launches...

BBC says that Air Wales looking at 3 new domestic routes, more news to follow in Summer.

As far as redeploying resources to domestic routes, since there were only 4 flights a week (not quite the same as the twice daily SWS / CWL service first announced...), not really much to redeploy.
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Pe@rson
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RE: Air Wales To Drop CWL-BRU

Tue Apr 06, 2004 7:01 pm

"BBC says that Air Wales looking at 3 new domestic routes, more news to follow in Summer."

Do you think these "3 new domestic routes" will be from CWL? If so, to where? If not, where and to where?
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cambrian
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RE: Air Wales To Drop CWL-BRU

Tue Apr 06, 2004 7:10 pm

That is bad news for CWL- as the capital city of Wales, an air link to the heart of the EU is surely needed?

But the timings that Air Wales gave this route doomed it to failure from the start.

From Brussels TO CARDIFF


MWF 18:35 19:20
Su 18:35 19:20



To Brussels FROM CARDIFF

MWF 15:10 17:55

Su 15:10 17:55



Air Wales should have allowed for early morning and late afternoon daily services to allow for day trips on this route. With these timings it is not surprising that the route is being pulled.





 
diesel1
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RE: Air Wales To Drop CWL-BRU

Tue Apr 06, 2004 8:04 pm

Good question Pe@rson...

The quote attributed to Roy Thomas, Air Wales MD on the Cardiff airport website is:
"On a more positive note, our association with BMI baby has already proved extraordinarily successful, and our other domestic routes are also proving extremely popular with passenger numbers growing by the day. As a result, this is where the Airline's focus will lie in the short term, and we're currently looking at three prospective new routes within the UK; if all goes well we should have some exciting news later on this summer."

Certainly doesn't read like it's a dead cert that CWL will get all of the routes...

If they (CWL) get anything, then the ABZ route has to be an option - is it too soon for the North>South Wales airlink? Other than these two I can't think what is left for Air Wales to try that has real potential from CWL.
Outside of Cardiff, expanded ops from SWS are a possibility.
Further afield, there are no Plymouth to Scotland or Northern Ireland links so some scope here?

Overall, I hope 'looking at three prospective new routes' means they are doing some proper investigation into potential loads and getting a decent marketing plan in place?

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Pe@rson
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RE: Air Wales To Drop CWL-BRU

Tue Apr 06, 2004 8:34 pm

Well, BRS needs an ABZ route, so perhaps 6G could provide the service from CWL.

There was talk of a CWL-RAF Valley service (heard it on the news), which would surely be subsidised. It would certainly be welcomed by me.

Surely a CWL-BHD or CWL-Swansea-BHD service is necessary?

BE serves both EDI and GLA non-stop from EXT (my 'home' airport) using DH4s. Accordingly, I am unsure about whether there would be sufficient demand to warrant a daily service (which would be necessary to be useful and competitive) to both cities from PLH. BE is also looking at EXT-NCL, AMS and CDG services. If it doesn't commence any of these, perhaps 6G could operate them from PLH. Who knows?

[Edited 2004-04-06 13:37:17]
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diesel1
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RE: Air Wales To Drop CWL-BRU

Tue Apr 06, 2004 9:41 pm

I'd discounted BHD from CWL as Air Wales had already tried and failed - also it would be in direct competition with bmibaby's CWL-BFS route, and I don't think they'd want this as they're in bed together...

No ABZ-BRS service makes this seem like an even better idea

Who knows what airfield will be used for the trans Wales link - I think RAF Valley is in the wrong place.
Hawarden would be a better bet as it's closer to the main areas of population - not 100% it's in Wales though...hmmm.
If it's not in Wales it won't be used, even if it's the 'right' airfield...

Caernarfon is another option, but unsure how large an aircraft the 'field there can take - probably not an ATR-42?

That flyBE operate to Scotland from EXT probably knocks a PLH > Scotland service on the head (but with Air Wales' route planning, who knows...), how about from PLH to LCY instead ?




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Pe@rson
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RE: Air Wales To Drop CWL-BRU

Tue Apr 06, 2004 9:59 pm

Yeah, I've wondered why no PLH-LCY service exists, as it might be worthwhile for the businessperson, so long as it's timed properly to enable a full day of business in both cities. Therefore, a twice-weekday service would be essential, and perhaps once on a Sunday (in the evening).
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trident2e
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RE: Air Wales To Drop CWL-BRU

Wed Apr 07, 2004 12:50 am

I think Air Wales are a very unprofessional outfit. They withdrew their much-hyped LPL services after a matter of weeks and with very little notice and now they are withdrawing the BRU service in a similar manner. I certainly won't be flying with them.
 
cambrian
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RE: Air Wales To Drop CWL-BRU

Wed Apr 07, 2004 12:59 am

The BRU route failed because they cannot offer day returns when business travellers want. I am willing to bet that lots of people within the CWL catchment are using SN's BRS-BRU service instead.

I agree that Air Wales seems to have a cavalier approach to setting up new routes.
CWL-BRU is surely a no brainer given the MEP's and AM's concentrated in Cardiff, and they can't even get that right. Their timings are bizarre and their fares are too high to attract leisure travellers.

I hope that the Air Wales bubble isn't about to burst, as CWL needs a decent scheduled carrier.
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Air Wales To Drop CWL-BRU

Wed Apr 07, 2004 1:31 am

I agree that Air Wales needs a kick in the right direction.

About offering day trips from CWL to BRU - this would obviously necessitate two weekday flights. Do you honestly think that there would be sufficient demand for two AT4-operated services per weekday, thus about 100 people in each direction per day and 500 per week?
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Horus
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RE: Air Wales To Drop CWL-BRU

Wed Apr 07, 2004 1:39 am

How are their flights on the Swansea/CWL-LCY route doing?
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Capital146
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RE: Air Wales To Drop CWL-BRU

Wed Apr 07, 2004 2:05 am

Time for my biased hat.
How about a CWL-LBA-ABZ service? Two major UK cities currently unserved from CWL. Much as I hate to suggest a competitor for T3 (my former employers) on the LBA-ABZ sector, 6G would most likely be able to offer cheaper fares and pick up extra passengers at LBA.

Biased hat off.
Maybe a CWL-PLH-GCI service could also be considered as both CWL and PLH have had strong links to JER over the years but have none to neighbouring GCI at present.
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Pe@rson
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RE: Air Wales To Drop CWL-BRU

Wed Apr 07, 2004 3:29 am

The Baby does indeed fly CWL-BFS-CWL, but it's timings are poor (to say the least) and not conducive to a day trip:





Cardiff to Belfast (Intl)

Dep Arr Days of Service Flt No From To
M T W T F S S
12:05 13:05 WW 5117 01-Jan-04 26-Mar-04


16:30 17:30 WW 5117 26-Oct-03 21-Mar-04


10:15 11:15 WW 5231 08-Sep-04 09-Sep-04


10:15 11:15 WW 5233 29-Mar-04 07-Sep-04


10:15 11:15 WW 5233 10-Sep-04 29-Oct-04


13:30 14:30 WW 5233 08-Sep-04 09-Sep-04


20:05 21:05 WW 5233 28-Mar-04 24-Oct-04




Belfast (Intl) to Cardiff

Dep Arr Days of Service Flt No From To
M T W T F S S
13:30 14:30 WW 5118 01-Jan-04 26-Mar-04


17:55 18:55 WW 5118 26-Oct-03 21-Mar-04


11:40 12:40 WW 5234 29-Mar-04 07-Sep-04


11:40 12:40 WW 5234 10-Sep-04 29-Oct-04


11:45 12:45 WW 5232 08-Sep-04 09-Sep-04


14:55 15:55 WW 5234 08-Sep-04 09-Sep-04


---

Air Wales could compete quite effectively on the CWL-Belfast route by having an early morning and late afternoon/early evening flight, and also by serving the more convenient City airport. Perhaps this:

CWL-BHD:

1234567 0630 - 0740
1234567 1730 - 1840

BHD-CWL:

1234567 0805 - 0915
1234567 1905 - 2020

I believe the airline is (or was) doing well on its flights from CWL to DUB as it has better-timed flights, unlike FR's.
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cambrian
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RE: Air Wales To Drop CWL-BRU

Wed Apr 07, 2004 4:15 am

Pe@rson,

You are absolutely right- the current FR timings on the CWL-DUB route are a gift to Air Wales. That is why I maintain that the CWL-BRU route could work with 2 daily rotations allowing for business people to make day trips.

I think that CWL could sustain this route- I already mentioned that Cardiff has lots of government agencies.

How come SN Brussels operates successfully from BRS?

Would SN be interested in taking over the CWL service?
 
sabenapilot
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RE: Air Wales To Drop CWL-BRU

Wed Apr 07, 2004 6:57 am

Cambrian,
The reason SN can successfully operate 3 daily return flights from nearby BRS (thus offering around 250 to 300 seats on a daily basis) is mainly thanks to pax connecting in BRU to one of the many other European/African destinations SN has. I think only roughly 1 out of every 3 pax is an origin to destination pax on this route. SN offers a very convenient flight schedule, an excellent service and on time performance at very competitive fares. Seems SN was simply too much of a competitor for Air Wales.

[Edited 2004-04-06 23:58:19]
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Air Wales To Drop CWL-BRU

Wed Apr 07, 2004 7:01 am

Yeah, a twice-weekday CWL-BRU might be OK, if like this:

CWL-BRU:

123456 0610 - 0840
12345 7 1730 - 2000

BRU-CWL:

123456 0905 0935
12345 7 2025 - 2055

Not brilliant times (esp. the 0610 departure), but if you want to have a full day in either city then you will have to make to - a later departure would be less convenient. I am not sure whether a Saturday service would be necessary, but a Sunday evening rotation might be. These timings would obviously mean that the aircraft would be free for most of the day, so new routes or additional frequencies would need to be sought to ensure fleet and staff utilisation.
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sabenapilot
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RE: Air Wales To Drop CWL-BRU

Wed Apr 07, 2004 7:29 am

Well done, but that's a pure copy of the SN timetable Pe@rson!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

BRS-BRU
123456. 0635-0845
12345.. 1050-1255
12345.7 1630-1840

BRU-BRS
12345.. 0950-1010
12345.7 1535-1550
12345.7 2040-2050

Besides, you are still stuck with some very big 'problems' then....
-) 2 iso 3 rotations, thus less flexibility.
-) only origin to destination traffic.
-) turboprop vs. jet.
-) remote parking stand at BRU.
-) competitive fares on SN
-) As SN is the only airline linking BRU (HQ of the Commission) with SXB (seat of EU Parliament), virtually ALL pax related to the EU are member of SN's FFP and thus travel under special conditions (more luggage, upgrade, ...). so these people will not easily be persuaded not to fly SN.

In short: there might have possibly been a niche market to support 2 daily return flights between CWL and BRU for origin-to-destination traffic only, but with SN serving BRS, it simply stands no chance.





 
gkirk
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RE: Air Wales To Drop CWL-BRU

Wed Apr 07, 2004 7:46 am

A CWL-BRU route surely wouldnt be completly viable without the feed that SN offers, hence while SN operate BRS-BRU, CWL-BRU will most likely fail, even with 50 seat ATR42s.
I hear Plymouth-CWL-NCL-CWL-Plymouth is starting to do very well though
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trintocan
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RE: Air Wales To Drop CWL-BRU

Wed Apr 07, 2004 8:26 am

It's sad to hear that 6G is dropping yet another of their expansion routes. It seems though that SN in BRS manages a similar set-up as KL in CWL - namely providing links to other services from their respective hubs (BRU and AMS respectively). In that regard they can maintain 2 or 3 daily flights and still be competitive unlike stand-alone Air Wales. This is unfortunate but Air Wales is looking a bit wobbly right now. The trouble is that BRS has a much larger catchment population than CWL (and in fact it captures a large slice of South Wales air traffic) despite its short runway.

As for Hawarden, it is entirely in Wales, just across the Dee from Wirral. Then again, LPL is not all that far away from there and is another large catchment area, if CWL-LPL failed one wonders what traffic is there from Hawarden. Valley seems an even longer shot.

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ScottishLaddie
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RE: Air Wales To Drop CWL-BRU

Wed Apr 07, 2004 9:26 am

I think a Swansea-EDI route could work, or somewhere in west Wales, (Valley)?
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Air Wales To Drop CWL-BRU

Wed Apr 07, 2004 5:35 pm

"Well done, but that's a pure copy of the SN timetable Pe@rson!"

I'll have you know I referred to no such timetable. Pure guesswork - and a pretty good one at that.  Smile
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flycro
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RE: Air Wales To Drop CWL-BRU

Wed Apr 07, 2004 5:47 pm

Air Wales live in dream world, they think up routes, open them with dodgy timetables and wonder why they don't work. Plus the ATR-42 doesn't help matters, small cramped and no rival for other companies jets. Having Bristol down the road also doesn't help matters.
 
diesel1
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RE: Air Wales To Drop CWL-BRU

Wed Apr 07, 2004 5:54 pm

Scottish Laddie.. get your atlas out - Valley is in North Wales  Smile

Trintocan... thanks for my geography lesson!  Big thumbs up You're right though - why should LPL fail and Hawarden work? Guess it depends on how much cross Wales subsidised Welsh Assembly traffic could be generated?

As far BRU flights go, BA (Manx/British Regional/Citiexpress) flights seemed fairly well patronised - the failure is down to Air Wales I'm afraid

CWL - BHD... just can't see it. bmibaby have already driven Air Wales off the route once. Remember BFS is also owned by tbi (owners of CWL) so you can be sure there's a good deal going on with landing charges etc..
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Pe@rson
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RE: Air Wales To Drop CWL-BRU

Wed Apr 07, 2004 6:59 pm

Yeah, Diesel, but I bet Air Wales' former CWL-BHD was poorly time and not conducive to a day trip - just like WW's. If it was timed with businesspeople in mind and was competitively priced, it could work - especially as it would serve the convenient City airport.
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diesel1
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RE: Air Wales To Drop CWL-BRU

Wed Apr 07, 2004 7:16 pm

Pe@rson

From what I remember timings weren't great - neither were BA's when they flew the route and had to operate the route as a stop enroute to ABZ to get a decent load on a J41.

If (when?) bmibaby pull off the Belfast route I'm sure Air Wales will be there to replace them - however until this happens I just can't see any likelihood that Air Wales will to go into competition with their 'partner' airline as I suspect it would introduce an element of risk to their operation with bmibaby they can't afford to take.
More likely is that Air Wales will operate the route for bmibaby as loads are apparently not great.

Don't under estimate the tbi factor - BA pulled off BHD and moved their services to BFS when they were flying to Belfast - must be down to the deal..., but I agree BHD is far more convenient


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ScottishLaddie
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RE: Air Wales To Drop CWL-BRU

Wed Apr 07, 2004 7:49 pm

Diesel, North-West actually  Laugh out loud
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Air Wales To Drop CWL-BRU

Wed Apr 07, 2004 7:50 pm

"must be down to the deal..."

Doesn't everyone complain when FR obtains deals? I think so.  Laugh out loud
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