timberwolf24
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Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:22 am

Several posts on the ATA Yahoo business board state that ATA is looking at the 717. From what was posted it will be a sizable number 60 to 70 aircraft. I have a feeling it could be wishful thinking knowing the financial shape ATA is in and that Boeing is looking at closing the 717 line.
Has anyone heard rumors of this floating around ATA and might be able to shed some more light on this?
Living in LA, ORD/MDW will always be home!
 
aa757first
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:26 am

Why? They already were in some financial trouble and they have all of those 738s. I don't see why they would.

AAndrew
 
luv2fly
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:30 am

I understand they were able to refinance the debt right now, it is still going to come due soon. I think it is wishful thinking on someone's part. I think they would be looking at a replacement for the L1011's first.
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7e72004
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:32 am

I highly doubt they are going to get the 717. The 737-800s are good enough and if they are going to buy any new aircraft it should be to replace the L1011s or saab340 (perhaps rj's)  Big thumbs up
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dutchjet
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:32 am

I am not trying to be harsh, but was the talk about ATA or AirTran.....frequently, these two airlines get mixed up because of the similar initials. Of course, AirTran is the largest 717 operator.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:34 am

I believe they meant TZ/ATA and not AirTran/FL
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
as739x
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:35 am

Timberwolf....can you post the article please?

ASSFO
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cwapilot
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:38 am

If even 2/3 of these 717 rumors turned out to have anything behind them, the 717 would be nearing 1000 orders by now, wouldn't it? Unless the new Embraers start falling from the sky, I think it is safe to start searching out cemetary plots for the 717 program. (All the while, I am hoping I can say later on that I was wrong...)
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:42 am

I agree that an L1011 replacement would be more likely. Boeing has mentioned that an unexpected North American airline might place a launch order for the 7E7, ATA anyone?

Regards,
DFW
 
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yyz717
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:43 am

I read something similar recently. Apparently ATA feels that the 738 is too large for some of the viable destinations from IND (and to a lesser degree MDW) since they have moved rapidly to a hub & spoke format at IND/MDW. The 717 would enable ATA to significantly build their IND hub.

Despite my username, I am not a mindless 717 devotee.  Smile



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
gamarocchi
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:45 am

It would really be nice, I don't like the idea of the last incarnation of the glorious DC9 dying out. Still, lately not a single one of the rumors about airlines being interested in the 717 turned out to be true. There even was a joke about those 5 717 Hex'Air (a regional French airlines) was supposed to be ordering, and some poor 717 fans were so desperate to believe it. I HOPE that aircraft will get new orders now, but I am not believing any rumor until I see a serious article. Alas, I am afraid that the aircraft is just too heavy to compete with the Embraer jets, it carries too few people to be able to replace most DC9/MD80s.... If BIG orders don't come during these year, the plane is dead.
 
timberwolf24
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:51 am

ASSFO
Here is the link to the ATA message board the postings were on. The info was posted in Msg #4708 RE: North American & ATA and MSG #4710 RE: Virgin & ATA.

http://messages.yahoo.com/?action=q&board=atah
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rumorboy
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:52 am

The reason why this rumor has started is because the company has approached the pilot union(ALPA) about setting up a pay scale for the 717. It doesn't mean they are getting the aircraft. Just the company and the union are talking about it. This has come up before except it was a different airplane last year. The company and union were talking about a pay scale for the 767s. Although I don't see them getting 717's it would be great for them to get a 100 seat airplane. There smallest airplane 737-800 holds I think 174. It would open small to medium size cities that right now ATA could not do.
 
syncmaster
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 6:00 am

Weather it is true or not...

I actually think it might be worth a try. And the 717 would be the right aircraft to do it, this would allow them to enter into much smaller markets, and provide more point-to-point services, like what NW is doing with non-stop Diesel 9 service from GRR to TPA and MCO, as well as many smaller cities like GRR. They could really start something. At least that's my two cents.
 
PA34plt
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 6:06 am

7E72004 :

ChiEx won't be replacing the Saab340's for a LOOOONG time. They already looked at replacing them with RJ's and supplementing with RJ's, Saab 2000's, and Q400's.
 
ChiGB1973
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 6:37 am

TZ has decided it needs a smaller aircraft for the mainline fleet. Whether or not we actually get anything remains to be seen. I have heard no rumors on-line. The 340s are here to stay for a while as PA34plt said. The regional jet market is too strong for ATA to consider buying it now. I talked to the president of C8 personally and he says they are looking at different options, one being the SAAB 2000, but have not decided on any one aircraft nor when the SAAB 340s will be replaced. There would have to be considerable work done on the boarding/staging area. There is not really enough room on the south side of MDW for too much bigger of an aircraft.

I am a fan of AirTran's 717 and it would be nice to have some around. TZ's focus is also on scheduled service. Though the military has been a very important part of ATA and always will, replacing the L-1011 fleet is a ways down the road. Wait until some of these 777s get a few more years on them.

Keep rooting for us guys. This is a great airline. Tough times are standard in the industry and ATA is holding its own, but there is a long way to go.

M
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 6:58 am

I thought ATA had already gotten rid of its last L-1011? They aren't in pax service anymore from what I've sean and heard... Confused
 
elwood64151
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 7:14 am

Cwapilot:

You and me both, dude. You and me both.

Alas, I am afraid that the aircraft is just too heavy to compete with the Embraer jets,

Alas, I wish that were the problem. Then Boeing could do something about it. Unfortunately, it has far more to do with payscales than weigh scales.



As for TZ buying the 717, there is a fairly sizable hole in their fleets that a CRJ-900, E-190, or 717 would fit very well into. With strong RJ sales and lagging sales of 717s, it's possible that the 717 could be an excellent addition to TZ's fleet that could be available at an significant discout. The only problem I see is TZ's still heavy debt-load, which might make financing something of a problem.

With the L-1011, didn't TZ get some 757-300s?
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syncmaster
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 7:17 am

Elwood64151, yes they got quite a few. Not sure the exact number, but they are for scheduled passenger service. The L-1011's are used for charter services, I believe both military (primary use) and vacation charters. I may be wrong! WMUPilot would be a good person to ask.  Big thumbs up
 
tzfalax
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 9:54 am

We have 12 757-300s. (550-561). Memos have indicated that the company is currently seeking an aircraft in the 100 seat range and out online the word is the 717. We are looking at expanding North-South versus East-West. One memo even mentioned the possibility of a new hub. It was also stated that the new aircraft would be operated mainline and not C8. Again, everything is still very premature. Very limited information is actually being released from the company at this point. There will be employee meetings across the system in the next month.
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 10:03 am

I sure hope ATA goes with the 717 over the E-jets. Not that I don't like the E-jets, but a TZ order just might save the line.
 
swaluvfa
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 10:09 am

With all of this being said......do you think there might be a possible merger with AirTran to gain a solid fleet of 717s AND a hub in Atlanta. Both ATA and AirTran are low cost, both now offer business class, maybe a new powerhouse low cost carrier could form? This would give AirTran the nationwide service AND international service that they might be seeking, and it could give ATA a good solid market share in the east coast.
 
planemaker
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 10:16 am

...there is a fairly sizable hole in their fleets that a CRJ-900, E-190, or 717 would fit very well into.

Sorry to have to set the record straight but... the CRJ-900 is barely an 86-seat aircraft. BBD did a little bit of marketing sleight-of-hand to "fool" everyone that it could compete with the FD-928 and E190. It is certainly not a 90-seater let alone have anywhere close to the capacity of the 717.

If ATA needs a 100-pax aircraft "now" then the 717 is their only bet. The E195 won't be available for delivery until 2006.
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FRA2DTW
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 10:33 am

I also believe that something might be in the works between ATA and Airtran. They would be a powerful combination, with discount hubs in Atlanta, Chicago and SFO. Wonder what would happen with Indy - combined maintenance?
 
planemaker
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 10:40 am

...but a TZ order just might save the line.

Save? More like extend. "Save" is just getting a bit too optimistic.  Wink/being sarcastic
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
flyinryan99
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 10:42 am

Please forgive me for being stupid (working for the company and not knowing)....who does ATA finance the airplanes through? If it's Boeing...then I wouldn't doubt that ATA could get a sweet deal to the same nature that AirTran got with the 737s. I love the 717 and would like to see it here at ATA. I still like the idea of FL and TZ hookin' up....possibly could be a wonderful relationship IMHO  Smile

Ryan
 
ltbewr
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 10:43 am

Interesting the idea of them considering the 717. Probably be best for serving to/from Indy to smaller cities in their system or to be added on rather than expand their regional services. Maybe to compete better with AirTran in mid-south/mid-west US markets. As to merger of AirTran/ATA...I doubt it as ATA still a major charter player, with several larger aircraft while AirTran not into long haul charter or has large planes.
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 10:45 am

I think it would be awesome if TZ got 717s. If they were to order 60-70 examples, it would be AWESOME!!!.

I had the privilege to take a peek at Midwest's 717, N906ME (Pics available on A.net's Sister site). and that plane was a real beauty. FL's, despite the high cycles, still look pretty damn good. They are starting to show SOME age, as the lights are starting to turn from the bluish-white they were delivered with to an Ivory-Creme-white. I think Midwest, along with their brown seats, should have ordered their 717s with WARM WHITE lights to reflect upon the warm interior.
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B757capt
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:19 pm

Air Tran and ATA together would be really great for both airlines. That will really scare us guys at NW
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micknix
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:55 pm

If they need something smaller, why not downsize and go with some 737-700's. They could use the 737-700's on less dense routes and to increase frequency on existing routes such as MDW-LGA and MDW-LAX.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 1:00 pm

why not downsize and go with some 737-700's. They could use the 737-700's on less dense routes and to increase frequency on existing routes such as MDW-LGA and MDW-LAX.

The question is whether the 73G is enough of a downsize. Also, if all of your proposed routes are <1000 nm, the 73G is not that efficient since you are not utilizing its range potential. Given that IND is centrally located, there are many markets <1000nm distant from IND that would support 717 service.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
ejMDWfan
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 1:38 pm

If there was a merger between ATA and Airtran I wonder what would become of Chicago Express. Airtran and Chicago Express both fly to Quad Cities, Milwaukee, Flint and Dayton. I feel it would benefit ATA. My question is...if there was a merger could Chicago Express and the Saab's be phased out and then the 717's utilized instead?
 
wedgetail737
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 1:44 pm

If ATA gets 717's, then Wichita's Fair Fares will be on the bandwagon to get them here, I'm sure.

We'll still looking for a west coast flier though.
 
ifly2eat
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 1:46 pm

Financial trouble with the B-737-800's? Where do you get this BS? We had a 95% load factor for April. To answer the question we are looking at the B-717. Flight operations is looking at performance out of MDW to certain Florida and western cities during the summer months at 100% capacity. More to follow.
Fly the friendly skys and stay out of mine.
 
airtran737
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 6:35 pm

Personally I thing that merging with TZ would be a nightmare. We've already been through one merger, and some of the original AirTran pilots are still pissed off. I think the biggest problem would be the integration of A.L.P.A. with N.P.A. It's a widely know fact that our pilots hate A.L.P.A. and that A.L.P.A. pilots think that our pilots are scabs. Not to mention the fact that there would be two seniority lists being merged, and fleet integration. I hope that we here at FL stick to our plan and go it alone. We've come a long way, and I don't think that swallowing up another airline is the way to go. Just my two cents.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
ifly2eat
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 4:23 am

AirTran737:

I'm not sure why you think all ALPA pilots think you guys are all scabs over there. Just a few years ago ATA was a scummy little airline that nobody heard of. The times I've jump seated on AirTran I found some of the most friendly crews I have had the pleasure of riding with. I personally think a merger with ATA and AirTran while sticky at first, would in the long run make for one formidable airline. Think of B-757-300's running hourly flights between ATL and MCO- talk about giving Delta fits! Only time will tell but know one thing that here at ATA we have ZERO ill will towards AirTran pilots.
Fly the friendly skys and stay out of mine.
 
airtran737
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 4:44 am

Ifly2eat
It's good to hear that you have a good opinion of our airline. I have some really good friends who have gone to ATA from Skyway in the last year, and they all say that you all have a good product. I've been treated with nothing but respect by your flight crews whenever I hitched a ride on TZ. I have to agree that our two airlines merging is an interesting idea, but there are so many issues. Seniority, pay scales, hubs, routing, and many others. I know that nobody here at FL and I'm sure no one at ATA wants their hard earned seniority to go down the tubes. It wouldn't be fair to give integrate the seniority of both employers, and putting the purchased carrier on a new date of hire isn't ever a good idea. Just look at AA and TWA, need we say more. But what can I say, you and I are the grunts doing the work, there are guys who are paid a lot more money than us to figure it out. Happy flying.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
FRA2DTW
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 5:18 am

I would assume from the beginning that ATA will be stapled since Airtran is the healthier carrier that will bail out George M. and his 14 percent bonds.
 
aviatortj
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 5:21 am

I would HATE TZ and FL merging. I try to keep that out of my head because, I am sure I would lose the great service and planes that come along with FL. They have been my choice to Florida for a few years and have had wonderful experiences each time. I decided to try TZ last month and the experience was less than enjoyable. Either way, it would be nice to see TZ pick up 717s. I could see a few more flights added to supplement those 738s out of MSP.

__TJ__
 
sllevin
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:07 am

Or ATA could do something radical, and acquire 25-30 Fokker 100's from AA. The reduced capital costs might well be worth the slight increase in costs/mile.

Steve
 
Midway2AirTran
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 1:20 pm

Maybe TZ is looking to convert future B737/B757 orders into B717's to get a good 100 seater deal? By the way, how many more B737's does TZ have on order? As for a TZ-FL merger, umm, I can see some advantages and the bad things to follow.
"Life is short, but your delay in ATL is not."
 
ChiGB1973
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Thu Apr 15, 2004 5:12 am

TZ has all the 757-300s that we ordered, 12. We have 9 more 738s to be delivered. I am not sure of the new delivery schedule since they were deferred. It is a possibility that order could be changed to 717s?

Word on-line (you know how that goes) is that we are looking at upwards of 100 717s. Like one pilot said, when I see the palm tree on the tail, I will believe it. The new livery is much better as far as I am concerned and will be glad when all the 757-200s have been painted. I have heard the L-10s are getting the "Pleasant Hawaiian" painted over with blue, but have yet to see one. Some of you computer/picture savvy people show us a 717 in ATA livery.

The rumor is that Boeing has many 717s to sell/lease and ATA will be paying for the hourly use. That seems pretty realistic. We'll see. I am certainly hoping for them.

I feel it is highly doubtful that TZ and FL will merge. I am not so sure there would be a need for TZ to acquire 717s or FL to acquire 73s. It would be more believable if I had heard this prior to FL's 73 order and TZ's "impending" order of 717s. With each one's current fleet the combination of companies would make for a huge competitor for LLCs and legacy carriers. ATA and AirTran have great products. I ride AirTran to PNS to visit Mom. The flight attendants have always been great to me and the 717 is an awesome aircraft.

ATA's decision on business class is for several reasons: 1) reduce seats for weight reasons (10 pounds added for each customer recently), 2) decrease the available seats: ASM or CASM, something dealing with all that, 3) Make travel more comfortable for our business customers, 4) to codeshare with certain airlines, and 5) prepare for the Europe service. This is the first I have heard it is to prepare for a merger with AirTran. But, sometimes we are the last to know.

M
 
WMUPilot
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Thu Apr 15, 2004 5:27 am

ATA is not looking to merge with any airline. ATA and AirTran would make a great codesharing partnership. I would think the first LCC Partnership would be between AirTran and ATA. FL has some great destinations that ATA would love to sell seats on, as well as FL would love to see seats on our Hawaii flights.

I have yet to hear the 717 rumor so it's a new one to me. Last thing i heard was the pay scale talks for an L1011 replacement. ATA is not in any position to aquire 100 aircraft, no matter what the type is. I wouldn't expect to see a new aircraft type for sometime yet.
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elwood64151
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Thu Apr 15, 2004 5:32 am

Or ATA could do something radical, and acquire 25-30 Fokker 100's from AA. The reduced capital costs might well be worth the slight increase in costs/mile.

As a short-term solution, this might be an excellent way to "tread water" while waiting for the E-190 to come online. OTOH, purchasing 717s now would significantly reduce re-training costs three to five years down the line.



I don't see a merger between FL and TZ. FL will need a hub in the midwest, certainly, but I don't think the addition of two new fleet types (L-1011 and 753) is really in their "low-cost" business plan. Especially a fleet type where there are only 12 copies (753s) or even fewer than that (L-1011s).

Certainly, the two airlines have complimentary route systems, with FL's major north-south operations and TZ's focus on east-west and international routings. That said, there are so many problems with trying to integrate two companies, especially airlines, it's not something that should be entered into lightly.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
ChiGB1973
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Thu Apr 15, 2004 6:22 am

Wmupilot

I was off for a few days and only heard it on here. I worked out last night and back today, the 717 rumor is spreading like wildfire. I agree, when the planes are painted and at IND and MDW, I will believe it.

M
 
airtran737
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Thu Apr 15, 2004 6:53 am

Come on ATA order the 717 and save the line. You'll love the airplane!
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Thu Apr 15, 2004 7:06 am

The new livery is much better as far as I am concerned and will be glad when all the 757-200s have been painted.

I actually like the old livery much better. The new one is boring to me.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Thu Apr 15, 2004 7:08 am

Having looked at the Yahoo Business Board posting, it appears to me that the post reads more like a discussion post rather than an actual article.

Until someone can get a bonifide article (and I'm NOT talking about 'The Onion') about ATA getting the 717; I would take this rumor with a grain of salt.

While it would be nice if ATA got the 717; I think that this is still in the 'wishful thinking' phase.

My $0.02
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capitol8s
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Fri Apr 16, 2004 9:00 am

I miss the original AMERICAN TRANS AIR titles and livery....The "Circus Wagon Paint" (Palm trees) was a bit much....
"Happiness is a flight on a Capitol Air DC-10"
 
WMUPilot
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RE: Rumor ATA Looking At The 717?

Mon Apr 19, 2004 5:48 am

From what I have heard (rumor) the deal was signed a couple of days ago. Apparently they are Airtran's cancelled orders and ATA got an awsome deal on the aircraft. Again this is all rumor but I heard this one today. I guess we shall wait and see for an announcement. This rumor seems to have some backing on itas it was talked about on ATA Connection's Flight Ops info line. If it is true then i would suspect we will see an announcement in the next week or so.
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