Sjoerd
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Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 7:14 am

Apart from the A333, A345 and A346 AF operated, operates or will operate all off the Airbus series. Why did they go for Boeing instead of Airbus with the B773 ?
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brons2
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 7:18 am

Some suspect due to existing deposits with Boeing that they would have forfeited. These deposits ran into the 100's of millions in USD, so they ordered the 777 series.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
joleb
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 7:18 am

because they got much more 777's than 340 and 330's.
Their most people moving or most revenue getting destinations are already operated by 777. also on the 777 is 2-3-2 in C and 3-3-3 in Y
compared to 2-2-2 in c with airbus. dunno about coach airbus
 
joleb
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 7:20 am

and also financial reasons for sure
 
Horus
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 7:21 am

When it comes to its long-haul fleet AF management said they operate different aircraft to suite every market, hence the wide variety; 332s, 343s, 772ERs, 773ERs, 743s, 744s and soon the A380.
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brons2
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 7:21 am

There's some articles about AF and the 777 on the following web site:

http://www.airtransportbiz.com/

It might be notable also that Snecma has a large risk share portion on the GE90.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
Guest

RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 7:23 am

Why not, They already have the 772ER, so there is no commonality issues. Infact the 773's will balance the AF Boeing fleet nicely with the Airbus.
 
pilot21
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 7:37 am

When the A340-600 project was launched, AF publicly stated that unless more then 1 engine maker was included in the project it would not be ordering any A346's as it didn't have or like the RR engine choice. Flight International ran a big article on the dispute after RR was choosen as the sole supplier of the new A340 engines.
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mindscape
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 7:42 am

I would rather love to see A346 on AF fleets than B773.
But the choice of the B773 is much more strategic regarding AF long haul policy, freighter business, cost cutting.
Two main reasons among others are :
1) it is not possible to have GE engines on A345 and A346, while AF only takes aircraft that use GE/Snecma engines : cost optimization on one family product
2) freighter capacity on pax configuration. Indeed, the B773 offers the same cargo capacity with passenger than the first version of the B747. Therefore, on the same destination, AF can increase its revenues with passengers on one side and freighter on the other.

 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 7:49 am

I would rather love to see A346 on AF fleets than B773.

why?

AF's choice is unique in that they're the only non-Asian airline to ever order a 773 model.
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NW747-400
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 8:29 am

Maintenance: 2 engines vs 4 will save a lot in maintenance, fewer systems, less weight, fewer things to check in inspections...
 
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yyz717
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 8:36 am

The 773 makes sense due to commonality with the 772.

What makes less sense is why AF chose the 772 after also ordering the 343. Very few airlines order both competing types.

The AF assortment of 332/343/772/773/744/380 types for longhaul is unnecessarily complex.
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NW747-400
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 8:42 am

The AF long haul fleet sort of appears like the airline is marketing their product as airlines did in the pre-deregulation era: Fly our airline because we fly the coolest airplanes. Its similiar to when the 747 was unveiled; anyone who was anyone had the 747 because it was the cool ride.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 8:54 am

AF went with the B773 for one very important reason, they are extremely happy with the B772 performance and wanted more of the same, thus, they went with the B773.

AF does have a wide variety of longrange types - they try to match route requirements with aircraft type a bit more precisely than most. Why does AF fly both the A343 and B772 (most airlines go with one or other and consider the two types competitors)? AF sees the A343 and B772 in 2 different segments: The A343 for thin long haul routes and very long haul routes and the B772 for higher density long haul. The 773 will likely replace the 744 on some premium routes and the displaced 744s will go on to eventually replace the remaining 743s flying AF leisure routes to destinations like the French Caribbean and other high density lower yeild services.

There is also the rumor that AF may eventually phase out the A343 (not immediately, but over the next 5 years) and replace the type with a mix of A332s and B777s (surprise, the same types that KLM went with!).......could happen, AF has already disposed of its A342s. Finally, AF has no intention of purchasing the A345 as they simply do not require the ultra-long range type in their route system.
 
Guest

RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 9:00 am

What makes less sense is why AF chose the 772 after also ordering the 343

Having both A/C allows Air France to match very explicitly, the most appropriate route with the appropriate plane.

Both aircraft have there advantages, Air France decided that the A343 is more efficient on long thinner routes while the 777 is on heavier routes. The A340 are also configured with higher economy seats and are ideal for Leisure Destinations like SXM, whereas the 777 is appropriate for routes such as GRU HKG and BJS. The presense of both Aircraft also allows AF to adapt to changing markets quickly and get maximum benefit.

I think it is good to see airlines with both A/C


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Horus
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 9:10 am

Yyy717

'Very few airlines order both competing types'

Here is a list of airlines who operate both the A340 and B777:

Egyptair
Cathay Pacific
Air France
Austrian Airline Group
Thai (when their A345/6s are delivered)
Kuwait airways
Emirates
Singapore Airlines

Have I missed any?
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yul332LX
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 9:39 am

The AF assortment of 332/343/772/773/744/380 types for longhaul is unnecessarily complex.

Not really. Commonality tends to lose importance as fleet grows especially with 40+ 772/773 and 35+ 330/340 and 30+ 744 (including F version)
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gigneil
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 9:51 am

Flight International ran a big article on the dispute after RR was choosen as the sole supplier of the new A340 engines.

GE could easily have offered a plane, as could have PW. They chose not to at the time.

They are smart, Boeing is a far better choice.

Yet another carefully measured response from the peanut gallery.

Maintenance: 2 engines vs 4 will save a lot in maintenance, fewer systems, less weight, fewer things to check in inspections...

Untrue.

N
 
Qb001
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 10:24 am

I think that if AF could go back in time, it wouldn't order the 343. Former AF CEO - Blanc, Leblanc, don't remember exactly - caused some sort of a commotion in France 10 years ago or so when he declared that AF's ideal fleet would be made of Airbus for narrow bodies and Boeing for large bodies. The "Boeing" part didn't go well.

Actually, because of its geography and the market it serves, 777 are quite a logical choice for AF. In my view, a 4-engine is really only needed over the Pacific, maybe the South Atlantic. Other than that, twin engines are good enough. And since AF doesn't have to fly over the Pacific, they don't need 4-engines planes, except for the very large markets that will be served by the 380 (JFK, NRT, LAX, HKG, YUL, etc).

I think AF is flying the 343 simply because they are stuck with them. If you're looking to buy some second-hand 343s, give AF a call. I'm pretty sure someone would call back: "Vous voulez acheter nos 343 ? Mais bien sûr Monsieur"...
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Leskova
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:32 pm

There's nothing new in this thread that didn't get mentioned in the numerous threads about the same subject in the last weeks...

Air France did not prefer the 773ER over the A346 because...
... the Boeing is the far better choice
... they're thinking of dumping their A343s in favor of B777s
... they cannot get rid of their other Airbusses
... they've got a 2-3-2 config in C-class and 3-3-3 in Y-Class**
... of whatever other ridiculous A vs B reason someone here will come up with.

**: this really must be one of the strangest things that I've ever heard of being listed as an advantage of the B777 over the A346...


Others have written it in this thread, I've written the same in numerous other threads as well: Air France does not operate aircraft who's engines are not made by GE/Snecma.

That is THE reason why AF did not order the A346 - unfortunately, GE chose not to offer an engine, although - as I understand it (from several posts by, among others, ConcordeBoy and Gigneil) - Airbus does not have an exclusivity contract on the A340NGs as Boeing does on the B777NGs, so - should GE at any point want to offer an engine, they still could.

Which, at least in the case of AF would be academic: the B773ER already has GE engines, AF has already ordered them and is taking delivery of them, so I very much doubt that they'll switch over to the A346.

Both are great aircraft. Both do their jobs. Both will be in service for very long times. Both are very well capable of making money for their operators.

Get over this constant A vs B crap - or at least back up your comments with facts and proof, not just things like "I heard from so-and-so" or "X looks better than Y": the fact that just about half of the discussions on a.net have to end in an A vs B discussion really is disappointing.

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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 6:17 pm

4 engines may well be the same weight or lighter than two for corresponding MTOW since a 2 holer needs each engine to be able to lift the entire plane, while the 4 holer only need do the same job with three.

The engines on the A340 are much smaller individually than those on the B777.

Also 4 holers have the outer engines further outboard than 2 holers, meaning less bending moment and potentially a lighter wing.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 6:21 pm

and potentially a lighter wing.

...wing has to be sufficiently fortified to hold the outboard engines.
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EK413
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 6:27 pm

A simple answer would be the fact that AF's fleet are solely GE powered & the A345-A346 are only available with RR power plants!  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up

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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 6:28 pm

Thus the "potentially"  Big grin

Anyway I have this to say for A vs B: http://www.reallifecomics.com/daily.php?strip_id=1172
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azmd80
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 7:26 pm

Mindscape,
are you sure that B773 freight capacity is larger than A346? The reasons You have posted in favour of 773 are the same than in favour of A346.

In my opinion the main difference are two:
1. the maintenance cost of a two engine powered instead of four
2. the preference of GE engine.

Probably also the internal config of 777 are preferred by AF: remember that only these aircraft will mantain 3 class configuration, that means that all the high revenue route will be flown by 777.

bie
 
klmflyer
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 8:17 pm

I think it's more a Marketing-driven choice.
AF plans to customize all markets according to demand and required type of service.
The intercontinental routes will be flown - apart from the Dedicate service using A319LR and the F100 - with B747-400, A340, A330, B777.
Each airliner features a specific mix of F/C/Y seats, with F seats only on the triple 7.
This will allow AF to better serve each market.
 
mindscape
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 10:48 pm

Salve Azmd80,

I don't think the internal 3 class configuration on B777 is a good reason, they could do so on the A346 as well.
I don't think that the cost maintenance of 2 engines intead of 4 is lower.
I am pretty sure that the freight capacity of the B773 is larger than the A346, and for sure GE/Snecma engines are one of the decisive points.
 
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solnabo
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 11:35 pm

Dont worry about 773ER, they gonna look like Cessna´s when AF A380 lands on CDG!!  Laugh out loud

Michael//SE
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phollingsworth
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 11:59 pm

I don't think that the cost maintenance of 2 engines intead of 4 is lower.

There is a tremendous amount of evidence that 2 engines reduces O&S cost significantly over 4 engines. The ETOPS requirements negate some of this advantage, but with the new LROPS requirements the O&S difference will only improve. In almost all cases you will maximize ROI and ENPV by have as few different systems as possible.

AF liked there 772s, and from the data I have seen so did many of their passengers. This puts them in a good initial mindset when considering future derivatives.

As for the GE vs. RR, AF has a preference for powerplants that have SNECMA involvement, i.e. the modern GE engines. Boeing negotiated an exclusive deal with GE for the 772LR/773ER based on risk, ROI, etc. To get this deal GE also has to guarantee that the engines will cost less the X amount, there are substantial penalties if GE doesn't meet their end of the deal. As for the A346 even though Airbus may not have negotiated and exclusive deal with RR if either GE or PW wanted to get on the airframe they would have to pay for all of the design and certification work, this is common practice. Since GE already has a ride on the 772LR/773ER, which fit in the same markets, they feel that it doesn't make investment sense to buy their way on to the A346. Based on GE's overall track record with respect to investing in products and ideas I am willing to give the the benefit of the doubt until proved otherwise.
 
LMP737
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sun Apr 18, 2004 12:00 am

Stationblue:

In the event of engine failure on takeoff run the 777 is capable of flying on one engine. In addition the four engines on the A340-500/600 weigh more than the two on the 777-200/300.
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planespotting
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sun Apr 18, 2004 12:03 am

this thread could be nothing BUT Airbus vs. Boeing. Obviously the triple 7 is the better airliner  Big grin
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srbmod
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Sun Apr 18, 2004 12:08 am

In some markets, AF flies both the A340-300 and the 777-200. ATL is one for example. The afternoon flight is an A340 while the evening flight to CDG is a 777. There have been times when both flights were on the 777, but AF seems to change the a/c type for the afternoon flight every so often.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Mon Apr 19, 2004 9:50 am

I don't think that the cost maintenance of 2 engines intead of 4 is lower.

The first three words of that statement sum it up quite nicely  Laugh out loud



I am pretty sure that the freight capacity of the B773 is larger than the A346

Hope ya didn't bet the farm on that one...  Wow!



Dont worry about 773ER, they gonna look like Cessna´s when AF A380 lands on CDG!!

Ah yes, particularly since it's a longer aircraft  Insane
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LH423
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Mon Apr 19, 2004 10:09 am

And since AF doesn't have to fly over the Pacific, they don't need 4-engines planes...

Ah...one forgets their CDG-LAX-PPT rotation. While not the entire Pacific, LAX-PPT is quite a long flight.

Anyway, this is simplified from when they had the A310 and 767 in the fleet as well. With the new cabin configurations the 777 is going to be the only aircraft in the AF fleet to be fitted with Espace Première (First Class). Therefore, the function of the 777 fleet will be to fly the premium long-haul routes (YUL, JFK, IAD, NRT, etc) while the 747s will fly high-density, lower yield long-haul (MIA, SXM, FDF, PPT, SFO), and the A330s serving lower yield trans-Atlantic flights (YYZ, PHL), and the A340 serving lower yield, long haul (BOS, ATL, etc). The 747 Classics will eventually start being removed from the fleet, most likely with the -200s going first, eventually the -300s down the road. These will continue to serve as primarily charter and holiday destinations, like the Seychelles, Caribbean, etc.

LH423
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boeing767-300
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Mon Apr 19, 2004 11:28 pm

Dont worry about 773ER, they gonna look like Cessna´s when AF A380 lands on CDG!!

Michael//SE


You may be right but a full 773ER will be a very profitable beast compared to slighty more people on A380. Unless the cattleyards are full ready for each A380 flight then the "Cessna" 773ER are definately what the bean counters will want even if the 550 people fighting for space in the departure lounges and scrapping at the luggage carosels think its what they want!!!
 
Guest

RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Mon Apr 19, 2004 11:55 pm

hhmm yes the 773 is going to more profitable than an A380, of course both will be nowhere near as profitable than the 737 due to the smaller capacity of the plane.

550 people fighting for space in the departure lounges and scrapping at the luggage carosels think its what they want!!!

but how could this be a problem when you can fit only slighty more people on an A380
 
pacificjet
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Economics

Tue Apr 20, 2004 12:07 am

You guys wouldn't stop for a minute and actually think that the B777-300ER
may have significantly better economics than the A340-600.

1. Seat Count
2. Twin vs Quad (Engine Maintenance and Fuel Burn)
3. Finance Costs (GE Capital is a risk sharing partner)
4. Commonality
5. Cruise Speed (lower pilot and flight attendant costs, higher utilisation)
 
gkirk
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:00 am

RE: The 343 and 772....the answer is obvious  Big grin AF were thinking of the customers - some people like fast climbs(343), and others like slow climbs(772)  Laugh out loud
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FlySSC
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Tue Apr 20, 2004 8:37 pm

LH423,

LAX-PPT is really not THAT long : 8h05 ... 3558nm (4095mi or 6590km)

just like a YYZ-ZRH or YUL-FCO...
 
mark777300
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Thu Apr 22, 2004 10:39 am



without getting involved in this A vs B junk, the reason behind AF choosing the 773ER over the A346 is based on the engine selection. All of it's fleet is either powered by CFMI or GE engines. It would not have been economical to bring in the A346 with RR engines into it's fleet. AF has also publicly expressed it's desire to have different type aircrafts which better fit it's different markets than relying on one single type to do it all, hence why they have the A340, A330, 747 and 777 in it's fleet (soon to be joined by the A380)!
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Thu Apr 22, 2004 5:43 pm

AF will be retiring/selling the A340 in the not too distant future. There is little doubt that they won't be buying 340-3s to replace them (so why buy more).

I suspect we will see another Boeing widebody at AF as they replace the A340s, and that will be the 7e7, all models inclusive (base/sr/stretch).

Cheers.
 
FlySSC
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Thu Apr 22, 2004 6:14 pm

Shenzhen,

AF will NOT buy any kind of A343.
AF will NOT buy the 7e7 (well not within the next 10/15 years...)

The A343 is the next type scheduled to leave the AF fleet in a medium term and to be replaced by additional B772ER/B773ER and A332.

The AF long-fleet will consist (around 2007) in : A380 - B744 - B772ER/B773ER - A332/A343(?)

The AF Short/Medium-haul fleet will be even more simple from 2005 :

A318/A319/A320/A321.
 
ND
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Thu Apr 22, 2004 6:41 pm

Wow FLYSSC

You seem to have this voice of absoluteness when making such statements. What are the warrants behind these? How do you know that there is no chance in hell AF will order the 7E7 in the near future? I'm not criticizing, I just want to know where you get your info from...
ND - Hated By Many, Confronted By None
 
Adria
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Fri Apr 23, 2004 3:24 am

The fact that they are the only non-Asian carrier that use the 773ER says it all. I think the A345/-346 are going to be a part of the AF fleet in the future.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Fri Apr 23, 2004 3:30 am

I think the A345/-346 are going to be a part of the AF fleet in the future.

...based on?  Insane
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Guest

RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Fri Apr 23, 2004 3:32 am

I think we can really put this thread to bed by saying that AF chose the 773ER due to the choice of engines. They are never going to get A345/6's because they are only avaliable with RR's
 
Adria
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Fri Apr 23, 2004 3:36 am

...based on? The engines probably weren't the main reason why AF got the 773ER. It is more economical to have the A346 because of the commonality with other types. The 777 is going to stay in the fleet, but there are a lot of old 747s to be replaced in the future
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Fri Apr 23, 2004 4:16 am

The engines probably weren't the main reason why AF got the 773ER

*buzz* Wrong, try again  Laugh out loud



It is more economical to have the A346 because of the commonality with other types.

Sorry slugger, but you couldn't have struck out harder on this one  Laugh out loud

Even if AF was the type of airline to consider commonality to be the say-all-to-end-all.... their 777s share cockpit, airframe, and engine; whereas any A340NGs would only incorporate two of the three.

In other words... you're WRONG sir  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
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copaair737
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Fri Apr 23, 2004 5:39 am

Will AF transfer the LAX-PPT route to SFO? If the 773ER is going to be used on LAX, but not PPT, and SFO will get the 744, will the flight run CDG-SFO-PPT instead of CDG-LAX-PPT?

-Copa
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why Did AF Get The B773 And Not The A346?

Fri Apr 23, 2004 5:41 am

Will AF transfer the LAX-PPT route to SFO?

They've shown no intention thereof thus far.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!

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Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

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Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos