Horus
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Air Cairo Interested In Some Of SAS's A321s

Sat Apr 17, 2004 7:32 am

As a part of SAS's restructuring the airline is considering the disposal of its dozen or so fleet of A321s. Egyptian charter operator Air Cairo was shown interest in purchasing 3 to 5 aircraft from SAS.

SAS has reported that the aircraft are 'too big' to operate on the trunk routes they were intended for like Copenhagen-Stockholm. And now with SAS being seperated into three airlines, all competing with one another on such routes, the A321 might not fit into their future plans.


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Horus
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RE: Air Cairo Interested In Some Of SAS's A321s

Sat Apr 17, 2004 11:19 pm

The sources that indicate that SAS are considering the removal of the A321 are in Flight International and Airliner World. As for Air Cairo's interest in the aircraft, that was reported in last week's Al-Ahram newspaper (one of the largest Arab newpaper), but they don't have a link to the article on their website.

Does anybody know how old these A321 are?
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solnabo
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RE: Air Cairo Interested In Some Of SAS's A321s

Sat Apr 17, 2004 11:29 pm

Horus, where did you get this info? A321 is for Eu-cities, not ARN-OSL/CPH!
SAS A321 is 2-4 years old, dont see why the letting the 321 go????

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transswede
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RE: Air Cairo Interested In Some Of SAS's A321s

Sun Apr 18, 2004 12:20 am

SAS has been talking about getting rid of the A321's for a while now - not because they are bad aircraft, and I don't really buy the line about it being too big for its routes - but because the A321's would be worth the most $$$ on the 2nd-hand aircraft market.

They could sell the MD-90's - very similar capacity and also an "oddity" in the fleet, but they would not get as much cash for those.
 
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solnabo
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RE: Air Cairo Interested In Some Of SAS's A321s

Sun Apr 18, 2004 12:56 am

IMO SAS could sell off those crappy B736, too many of them!
Just my thought

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transswede
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RE: Air Cairo Interested In Some Of SAS's A321s

Sun Apr 18, 2004 1:04 am

Yes, but to whom? Nobody wants them...  Smile
 
HUYfan
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RE: Air Cairo Interested In Some Of SAS's A321s

Sun Apr 18, 2004 1:18 am

I'll take the 736s, i love them, their wings and tail look so BIG!

They look like a little rocket to me!

Regards

Mike
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Air Cairo Interested In Some Of SAS's A321s

Sun Apr 18, 2004 1:24 am

At least the 736s have commonality with the 76Gs and 738s...
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pera
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RE: Air Cairo Interested In Some Of SAS's A321s

Sun Apr 18, 2004 1:30 am

Solnabo, SAS is using A321 in scandinavian - routes aswell, mostly ARN-CPH. SAS is also operating the A321 much on CPH/ARN-LHR I think. But mostly at ARN-CPH!!
 
Horus
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RE: Air Cairo Interested In Some Of Z A321s

Sun Apr 18, 2004 1:58 am

Pera, yeah that is the case, it was reported in Flight International magazine last month. The thing is if they're having problems filling up the A321s now when it is still a unified company (with a virtual monopoly), then there are gonna for sure have problems when SAS is split into 3 companies, all competiting against one another. In that case wouldn't the smaller B736s be well suited to the new market conditions? Also could they possibly downsize the A321 fleet rather than completely get rid of them?
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dutchjet
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RE: Air Cairo Interested In Some Of SAS's A321s

Sun Apr 18, 2004 7:33 am

Funny, long ago SAS bought a handful of A300s for the same type of routes, and then determined that the aircraft was too big for the routes and eliminated the type after a few years, later, SAS bought a few 762s for the same types of routes, and then determined that the aircraft was too big for the routes and eliminated the type after a few years.....now its the A321s turn.

If would make sense for SAS to eliminate the A321 from its fleet; firstly, if its too big to make money with, SAS does not need it; secondly, I never fully understood why SAS went for a small number of A321s when it already had a large 737NG fleet....I know that the A321 has a common cockpit with the A330/340 fleet, but does SAS really need a MD80/90, 737NG and A32X mix for its european and domestic operations; lastly, the A321s are valuable, as mentioned above, the A321s could probably command good prices even in this difficult used aircraft market - the MD80 is being retired by airlines worldwide and values are dropping, the MD90s are close to worthless (if there was any second hand market for this type, DL would probably dump its MD90 fleet as well, the ex-Reno Air (AA) MD90s have yet to find new homes), and the 737NG fleet is the backbone of SAS's new short/medium haul fleet and there would be no advantage to selling off just 10 or 12 of the type.

It seems that SAS or the three SAS's have a lot to figure out.
 
Horus
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RE: Air Cairo Interested In Some Of SAS's A321s

Sun Apr 18, 2004 7:44 am

The reason they went for the A321 rather the the 737-900 (even though they operate the 736, 737, 738) was mainly due to the fact the Airbus could be turned around in a much quicker time. This was reported in an article about the airline in an Airliner World magazine.
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airxliban
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RE: Air Cairo Interested In Some Of SAS's A321s

Sun Apr 18, 2004 7:52 am

Horus, is Air Cairo the egyptian airline that operates Tu-204?
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warren747sp
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RE: Air Cairo Interested In Some Of SAS's A321s

Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:16 am

@Horus
can you be more specific which airline can turn around much quicker an A321 than the B737NG.
If this is the case then Southwest and Ryanair should all purchase Airbus immediately. So I find this statement most likely not accurate or biased.
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Horus
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RE: Air Cairo Interested In Some Of SAS's A321s

Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:25 am

AirxLiban, Yeah. Egyptair recently bought 60% of the Air Cairo company (other 40% split between two private investors). MS is starting to modernise their fleet to bring it on par with theirs. Currently Air Cairo operate the Tu-204s and A321s. They operate charter and cargo flights

Air Cairo A321

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Air Cairo Tu-204

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Air Cairo Cargo Tu-204-120C

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Warren747sp, Look to say the truth I have no idea which is quicker to turnaround, but that is what it said in the article in an Airliner World magazine, the A321 is quicker to turnaround than the 739, which would save more money even if it meant introducing the new aircraft type. Now whether that is true or not, I simply don't know
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SNATH
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RE: Air Cairo Interested In Some Of SAS's A321s

Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:34 am

Horus,

I'm surprised that the A321s are faster to turn around than the 737-900s.
Do you know the reasons for this? I'm just curious...

Cheers,

Tony
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Horus
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RE: Air Cairo Interested In Some Of SAS's A321s

Sun Apr 18, 2004 9:02 am

Tony, here is the section about the A321/B739 in the article, but it doesn't give an answer to your question

"However, according to SAS Vice President of Fleet Development, Kurt Kuhne, the B737-900 was not an economical alternative to the A321. The cost advantage of the Airbus even outweighed the strong fleet commonality benefits of the B737-900, a stretch of the B737-600, -700. -800 versions already in SAS service. The much shorter turn-around times of the Airbus A321 was also a decisive factor and a strong selling point in a cost-conscience environment"

[Airliner World, January 2003 issue, p.28]
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warren747sp
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RE: Air Cairo Interested In Some Of SAS's A321s

Sun Apr 18, 2004 9:06 am

But I thought SAS is getting rid of their A321s ?
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Horus
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RE: Air Cairo Interested In Some Of SAS's A321s

Sun Apr 18, 2004 9:24 am

Warren747sp, They are considering whether to do that. That article was back in January 2003 explaining why they chose the A321 over the more logical B739. Since then, the airline was began restructuring and are looking at all their options.

Hope this helped
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KaiGywer
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RE: Air Cairo Interested In Some Of SAS's A321s

Sun Apr 18, 2004 12:12 pm

So is SK likely to be looking at obtaining some 739s now then? Or just stay with the 6/7/8?
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warren747sp
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RE: Air Cairo Interested In Some Of SAS's A321s

Sun Apr 18, 2004 12:20 pm

Thanks!Horus
With SK's present financial situation, I doubt they will order any jets soon.
Perhaps they will lease but I expect there will be significant delivery delay with the popularity of the 737NG.
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RE: Air Cairo Interested In Some Of SAS's A321s

Sun Apr 18, 2004 4:08 pm

The reason the A321 has a quicker turnaround time is because the cargo and luggage is contained in containers and not in the old,"loose bag" system.Also,the loading crews would not accept loading/de-loading such long cargo compartments as those found on the -900 unless there was an option to install a sliding carpet system which is found on the SAS MD-series.Apparently,this is not feasible on the 737's

The A321's were originally ordered for the intra-Scandinavian routes with excess capacity being used on "heavy" European destinations like LHR,FRA and CDG. 8 were originally ordered and delivered.Outstanding options have been deferred several times due to the economic situation SAS finds itself in these days. The A300's ordered at the end of the 70's were intended for the same sectors which at that time at a lower,but higher capacity,frequency. Jan Carlzon's new ideas were that destinations should be served more frequently but with smaller planes.Thus the A300 became too large and was relegated to SAS' subsidiary charter Scanair. The 767-200 was ordered to operate long,thin,non-stop flights from CPH to SIN.Equipped with 150 seats,a huge complement of business pax was required.It didn't turn out the way it was intended,and the 2 planes were the first of SAS' 767's to leave the company.They were used briefly on the CPH-LHR run during the summer seasons.

In SAS,a fleet of some 16 a/c individuals is needed in order to make the fleet profitable.With only 8 A321's,and being the only short/medium haul type in the SAS fleet with a potential market,the type is the most likely a/c to be disposed of by SAS if they determine to sell off some part of the fleet.
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OD720
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RE: Air Cairo Interested In Some Of SAS's A321s

Sun Apr 18, 2004 4:37 pm

Horus,

Do you know if they are getting rid of the Tu-204s? There is real shortage of the type in Russia and it seems that Tupolev will not be able to fill all the orders coming from different airlines.
 
NewSwissair
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RE: Air Cairo Interested In Some Of SAS's A321s

Sun Apr 18, 2004 11:59 pm

Attention!
Air Cairo is not Air Cairo. The former Air Cairo, which uses Tu-204 aircraft, has changed it`s name into Cairo Aviation. They have nothing to do with the current Air Cairo.
 
su184
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RE: Air Cairo Interested In Some Of SAS's A321s

Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:22 am

NewSwissair, you are right, the new Air Cairo was formed with 60% EgyptAir, 20% Egyptian banks, 20% Mr Ibrahim Kamel who is the owner of the old Air Cairo which changed its name to Cairo Aviation since the new one started operation, the reason behind this double naming was that Cairo Aviation and Sirrocco Aerospace ( TU-204 builder ) are both owned by Mr Kamel and they were expecting an order from EgyptAir sometime ago in the name of Air Cairo for domestic and charter operations. Air Cairo uses the callsign MSC and Cairo Aviation calling CCE.
Last comment, my information is that Air Cairo is looking for A320's and not A321's as the current configuration of the aircraft 190 pax in generous seating is only 10 seat higher than specifically fit A320 with 180 pax in charter config., those 10 seats don't justify the higher costs of running the A321.
 
Horus
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RE: Air Cairo Interested In Some Of SAS's A321s

Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:24 am

Sorry for the confusion everybody (thanks Newswissair and SU184).

SU184, I read they were interested in SAS's A321s in Al-Ahram newspaper earlier this week.
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