airtran737
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Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Sun Apr 18, 2004 9:28 pm

With all of the recent city additions that NW has made in MKE I was wondering if anyone might be able to see an AMS flight in the future. A red-eye arrival would provide good connections to the west coast and Florida. What do you think (if anything) it would take for NW to add this route? You have to admidt that it would be nice to see the DC-10 back in MKE.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
dutchjet
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Sun Apr 18, 2004 9:33 pm

While its a nice thought, its unlikely to happen.....NW has had an on and off relationship with MKE over the past 20 years, now they are stepping up service with CRJS. I do not think that MKE could support a transatlantic service with O&D traffic (even with all of the connection points offered via AMS) especially because there is so much choice to Europe out of nearby OHare. As far as connecting traffic, KL/NW has that covered via DTW and MEM to central/southeast/florida destinations, plus MSP offers additional connection possibilities to the west coast.

 
mlsrar
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Sun Apr 18, 2004 9:36 pm

Not unless an A319LR in a PrivatAir configuration came in NW's arsenal (which would probably be a success at that point).

Otherwise, no.

MKE has a very limited customs and int'l arrivals facility.
I mean, for the right price I’ll fight a lion. - Mike Tyson
 
luv2fly
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Sun Apr 18, 2004 9:45 pm

IMHO - You have to many other choices all in the area, ORD being a drivable distance, and then you have DTW and MSP being one stop away.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
planespotting
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Sun Apr 18, 2004 9:59 pm

No but i heard Aeroflot is starting nonstop MSN-SVO 2x seasonal for the summer time  Big grin
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
mlsrar
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Sun Apr 18, 2004 10:03 pm

You have to many other choices all in the area, ORD being a drivable distance, and then you have DTW and MSP being one stop away.

It is a rarity that a ticket out of ORD is less expensive than leaving from MKE. It is almost always cheaper to leave out of MKE and connect elsewhere, even ORD.
I mean, for the right price I’ll fight a lion. - Mike Tyson
 
Guest

RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Sun Apr 18, 2004 10:39 pm

I doubt it.

I'd place my money on PHX or LAS to receive NW/KL's next services to AMS... yes, the latter is a lesiure market without much freight but NW's flights from DTW, MSP and MEM already handle a large amount of connecting European traffic and NW's vacation arm MLT Vacations (doing business as WorryFreeVacations and NWA WorldVacations) has been ranked as high as the top three in vacation packages sold to LAS -- and those are profitable...
 
nwa man
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Mon Apr 19, 2004 5:42 am

DFW and DEN are also possibilities... wouldn't shock me to see NW/KL service to either of those cities from AMS.


Regards,

N-Dub
Create your own luck.
 
airtran737
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Mon Apr 19, 2004 5:56 am

It seems more logical to have a flight like that out of a focus scity doesnt it? I know that everyone is waiting for the MKE-SEA flight, but from what I'm told the O&D numbers arent there for it.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
Leneld
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Mon Apr 19, 2004 6:14 am

What about PDX to AMS? It would be great to see Northwest build up it presence at PDX here similar to Seattle's...
 
NWAFA
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Mon Apr 19, 2004 7:36 am

DutchJet,

The majority of flights in and out of MKE are NOT on the RJ's..but mainline.
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
airtran737
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Mon Apr 19, 2004 7:49 am

The point that i was trying to make is that NW is soon to be up to 29 flights a day to 12 destinations. Six of those flights will be CRJ's, but the other 23 will be mainline. How much more will NW have to grow in MKE before they get a flight to AMS.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
sanscott744
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Mon Apr 19, 2004 7:49 am

Northwests buildup at MKE is an attempt to stifle YX that is the only reason for the build up. The on again off again relationship is an attempt to upset the applecart. Northwest is upset that the state of Wisconsin gives tax credit to Midwest. Since 9/11 Midwest is struggling but only a little and NWA sees this as an opportunity to drive them out of Milwaukee only to increase fares later on. No there will be no MKE-AMS flights unless its an A319 in an international seat configuration. hahaha
 
airtran737
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Mon Apr 19, 2004 7:55 am

Why not use a DC-9, at least you know that it wont break.  Big grin Sure you'll need a couple of fuel stops, but it'll get you there.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
copaair737
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Mon Apr 19, 2004 8:01 am

I wonder if NW will retaliate the new YX MKE-SFO flight with a flight or two of their own. It sure wouldn't surprise me.

-Copa
Livin' on Reds, Vitamin C, and Cocaine
 
DTWINTLFLYER
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Mon Apr 19, 2004 8:29 pm

Maybe out of PHL again...there have rumblings for the past few years but so far nothing. I think it was flight 40 or 48 that was the PHL AMS before it switched to DTW. I can't see DEN although I did hear that a few years ago. Going into DEN would be stepping into a fight with UAL.. PHL is different only because USAIR continues to have deep financial problems. Hopefully PHL....LAS also could be a viable option...
 
HUYfan
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Mon Apr 19, 2004 8:58 pm

No one is serving the AMS-DFW route, I'm sure a KL/CO/NW codeshare 763 could work on the route? Daily in the summer with reduced freq in the winter?

Also, NW should open a LAX-AMS 332 route when they get the a/c, especially in the summer, the route would be well supported.

Regards

Mike
 
azo
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Mon Apr 19, 2004 9:41 pm

KL already serves the LAX market.
Kalamazoozoozoozoozoozoozoo
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Mon Apr 19, 2004 10:01 pm

I believe there are certain markets that prohibit one or the other from serving at the same time as per an alliance agreement.
Made from jets!
 
ATLhomeCMH
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Mon Apr 19, 2004 10:40 pm

I agree with SANSCOTT744...NW is merely trying to flex their muscle and damage a locally-based carrier...although, despite YX's cutbacks in their famous service, I think they'll survive...

An AMS flight in unlikely, like everyone has said, because the demand for it is too low...and b/c NW has two other hubs within a one state radius...plus ORD is right down the road...

It's like the conversation I've had before about why CMH will never become a hub...too close by there's CVG, CLE, PIT, DTW, IND...and ORD is one stop away.

I love MKE and hope it would happen, but it's wishful thinking!  Sad
"The most terrifying words in the Engligh language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"-Ronald Reagan
 
azo
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Tue Apr 20, 2004 12:53 am

NW is merely trying to flex their muscle and damage a locally-based carrier

I would like to see your proof of that. Where did you get the office memo or whatever from NW claiming this as being the only reason to serve MKE? It is a market they have been strong in for many many years, and they are only trying to increase their service there, as within other markets (such as GRR, FNT), with more point-to-point service. Making money by adding flights does not necessarily mean they are operating with the motive of shutting down a smaller competition.
Kalamazoozoozoozoozoozoozoo
 
airtran737
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Tue Apr 20, 2004 12:57 am

Northwest started to pay attention to FNT when they noticed that AirTran was kicking their butt.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
Guest

RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:39 am

DEN and DFW are unlikely due to the facet that any service would be countered with service from UA and AA (and yes, they currently don’t serve AMS) respectively. PHL would be a solid contender, although the route suffered losses the first time around – and US has long been rumored to reduce service to seasonal or withdraw completely (again)…

I’ll maintain PHX (most likely) and LAS will be the most likely expansion choices…
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Tue Apr 20, 2004 10:08 am

NW lost 30 million on the PHL-AMS route that year that they operated it. I think the biggest problem about it was that NW never advertised it in PHL. I mean maybe not tv, but local newspapers, magazines, and billboards at the airport, even. I was living in Philadelphia when they were operated it. I never saw anything regarding it.
Made from jets!
 
azjubilee
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Tue Apr 20, 2004 10:00 pm

I flew PHL-AMS while in college. The flight was 100% full... so people knew about it. But we got the seats for such a rediculous amount of money.. and then opped upgraded into C class (I was a flirt and a silver elite) that stuff like that never allowed them to make money. Full flights don't always equal profits.


AZJ
 
HUYfan
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Tue Apr 20, 2004 10:34 pm

I know KL operat daily 744s on the AMS-LAX route, but there is definitely more demand for seats, especially in the summer.

KLM should reduce available seats by putting a 777 on the LAX route in place of the 744, and NW a 332, therefore not increasing the total number of seats by an unrealistic figure.

Regards

Mike
 
Guest

RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Tue Apr 20, 2004 11:10 pm

Northwest started to pay attention to FNT when they noticed that AirTran was kicking their butt.

Care to back that up?

The true success of FNT can be attributed to the airport marketing itself to travelers flying to/from Oakland County as a more convenient gateway vs. DTW (which was made possible by the northern suburban sprawl). Persons flying to/from Oakland County account for nearly 40% of FNT’s traffic today – up from the single digits just several years ago. It’s expected that FNT will be among the fastest growing airports in the USA over the next ten years – some predict it’ll be #1. Virtually all this traffic will come at the expense of DTW, as FNT transitions itself into an alternate gateway into Metro Detroit (and more specifically, Oakland County).

NW isn’t exactly a stupid airline – they’re aware of this and they realize that if they wish to protect their market share and corporate accounts within the Metro Detroit region, they’ll have to focus on FNT.

Michigan is unique in such way that virtually all of its major cities in the LP – Traverse City, Lansing, Grand Rapids, Saginaw, Flint, Kalamazoo, etc. – satellite around Detroit. Thus, the airline that controls the air traffic ex-DTW will control the air traffic at those satellite cities. As this trend begins to break, NW will need to make adjustments to protect its market share.
 
ATLhomeCMH
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Tue Apr 20, 2004 11:13 pm

AZO: Should I need proof when I'm already stating the obvious? You pretty much turned around and answered your own question. It's a matter of making more money, right? So then, one would logically assume that you have to limit the money making ability of your competitors in order to further your own business motives, thus financially hindering or "damaging" your opponent. Simple concepts.

It's pretty much assured that if, in the end, NW did end up shutting down YX, it couldn't POSSIBLY be bad for them, since it would mean one less competitor to take business away. All's fair in love, war, and business expansion.

Does it mean I like this? Of course not, b/c my experiences with NW (as well as with WN) have been awful, while I have enjoyed the service I've received from YX.
"The most terrifying words in the Engligh language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"-Ronald Reagan
 
Guest

RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Tue Apr 20, 2004 11:52 pm

ATLhomeCMH,

NW’s enormous presence (in terms of market share) dates back to long before Midwest Express was in existence. NW mentioned several years ago that they’d like to break away from the traditional hub-and-spoke model and introduce direct (point-to-point) services in markets in which they’d benefit and would be successful. Obviously the airline feels that it could make money within the MKE market… the facet that Midwest is there is irrelevant.

Using the flawed logic you and many other a.net users present…

-- AirTran is trying to hurt DL in ATL and DFW and AA in DFW as well by offering services to/from those markets at prices in which DL/AA can barely compete with.

-- Southwest is trying to hurt WN in PHL by offering services to/from the markets at prices in which US can barely compete with.

-- If the Wright Amendment was eased, WN’s expansion would hurt AA at DFW, therefore it should be maintained.

I’ve yet to see any evidence that NW’s expansion at MKE is an attempt to cripple Midwest.

- - -

Does it mean I like this? Of course not, b/c my experiences with NW (as well as with WN) have been awful, while I have enjoyed the service I've received from YX.

I’ve found DL to be a shitty carrier whereas I’ve enjoyed my experiences with NW… we all have opinions. Some of us, however, do not have any points to make…
 
azo
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:31 am

I'm sorry but just because you have had bad experiences on NW does not mean that their whole reason for expanding at MKE is to cripple YX.

And to answer your first question, yes. You ALWAYS need proof when making accusations, or posting any other type of information one may claim as being fact.

You may think it is obvious that they are trying to shut down YX, and I may think it is obvious that they are playing fairly. But none of that matters because unless you have some inside information that few if any other people here have, there is no way for either of us to know their actual motives.

Opinions are fine, but do not try to pass yours as fact unless you can back it up.
Kalamazoozoozoozoozoozoozoo
 
ssides
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Wed Apr 21, 2004 2:52 am

I would personally like to see O&D data for all US traffic headed for AMS ... how many passengers are actually connecting elsewhere? I would think a lot.

MKE getting AMS service is a pipe dream, its not going to happen. Probably the same for DFW and DEN. As far as DFW is concerned, there's not much O&D between DFW and AMS (unlike IAH, where Shell has justified 3 daily flights to AMS), and the only airline that could provide enough connecting feed is AA.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
MAH4546
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Wed Apr 21, 2004 3:03 am

I would personally like to see O&D data for all US traffic headed for AMS ... how many passengers are actually connecting elsewhere? I would think a lot.

Amsterdam is a pretty popular tourist destiantion. Something different outside fo the typical London/Rome/Paris. I believe it is the 5th most visited European city by Americans, after those three and Madrid, but I am not positive.

There is strong O&D to Amsterdam from certain markets. New York City, of course. Very strong O&D from Houston, as you mentioned, thanks to oil traffic. Also from Miami and Los Angeles, which are two favourite destinations for the Dutch.
a.
 
Mikey711MN
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Wed Apr 21, 2004 3:14 am

Has Milwaukee County ever subsidized service or offered incentives to airlines directly to provide service to the airport? Somehow if an airline like KL or NW were offered something similar to how PDX has attracted the likes of LH, this situation might be upgraded from "pipe dream" to "possibility".
I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
 
slider
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Wed Apr 21, 2004 5:25 am

MKE doesn't have the local market size needed to effectively sustain AMS service, period. And NW's schedule, while impressive, isn't a connecting hub construct to feed an international widebody either.

Seems like we have some NW/MKE thread in here every other day and the discussion pivots around NW's alleged perdatory behavior against YX.

The simple fact of the matter is that NW's first route was MKE-MSP, at the old St. Paul downtown airport. There is a VERY strong history there, with Northwest serving MKE. It is only appropriate that an airline with that legacy, market share and equity in southeastern WI grow their flight schedule and market share.
 
Mizzou65201
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Wed Apr 21, 2004 5:56 am

Slider: All true, except much of that "legacy" was tarnished in Sept. 1992 when NW shut down the old mini-hub and MKE became just another spoke station. There were plenty of layoffs, plenty of p-o'd people...and at the same time YX was 8 years old and hitting its stride. I'm not saying that permanently tilted the local favor to YX...but at the same time, it's not like NW has been an all-the-time local favorite.
 
mlsrar
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Wed Apr 21, 2004 6:12 am

Has Milwaukee County ever subsidized service or offered incentives to airlines directly to provide service to the airport?

Touchy topic. If you call the State offering property tax immunity for YX and AirWis incentives, then, yes. Otherwise, no. I highly doubt you would find anyone but Harley or Rockwell leveraging a portion of their travel budget to a carrier willing to start overseas service...never in the state or city will you find anyone to pony-up the cash. Three years ago, they were all set to watch YX vacate and move HQ to MCI.


Seems like we have some NW/MKE thread in here every other day


That's 'cause MKE kicks A*S!

I’ve yet to see any evidence that NW’s expansion at MKE is an attempt to cripple Midwest.

Well, YX seems to think otherwise: This is from Tim Hoeksma on 9/11/03:

Today's competitors are more aggressive, more invasive and desperate to get our market share through low-ball pricing and nonstop flights to our cities. Some are bleeding from the economic downturn; others are relative newcomers that boast of rock-bottom fares and extremely low operating costs. Each one wants to take our customers and our routes. We are not going to let that happen

The YX intranet even has a site called, "What are our competitors up to", which lists under the NW column, and I quote: Is pricing Midwest markets in a predatory manner.

Sorry IP, I don't mean to be a hater, but you need to fess up when you're wrong.

I mean, for the right price I’ll fight a lion. - Mike Tyson
 
Guest

RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Wed Apr 21, 2004 6:32 am

Sorry IP, I don't mean to be a hater, but you need to fess up when you're wrong.

Wrong about…?

Sorry, but if a.netters are going to continue to make the crappy argument that ‘this new [legacy airline] service is an attempt hurt my favorite LCC ‘LowFaresHotGirlsAndPTVsAir’ then they should provide concrete evidence to support it. YX propaganda doesn’t count – they’d be doing the same if it were any other airline.
 
Guest

RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Wed Apr 21, 2004 7:03 am

Northwest and Midwest have existed together in MKE before... to a much larger extent. NW used to have even more service out of Milwaukee.

Going back to the early 1990s:
4 x ATW*
1 x BOS
7 x DTW
5 x GRR*
4 x GRB*
2 x IND*
1 x LAX
2 x MSN
4 x MEM
7 x MSP
3 x LGA
2 x PHL
1 x SFO
2 x STE*
2 x YYZ
2 x DCA
2 x AUW*
* is Airlink
 
Guest

RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Wed Apr 21, 2004 7:10 am

Mlsrar ,

After reading your comments concerning me, it’s certainly not worth my time responding to you. However, I’ll ask you and the rest of a.net one more time to provide concrete evidence that NW’s expansion within the MKE market is an attempt to knock-off YX. The facet that YX is nervous about NW’s presence is irrelevant – Spirit Airlines at DTW and, to a lesser degree, Sun Country at MSP make NW nervous… but one can’t reasonably say that (for example) NK”s proposed DTW-CUN service is an attempt to hurt NW, considering CUN has been among NW’s more lucrative markets in the winter (when sold within packages via both NW and WorryFreeVacations). That’s the logic that’s consistently displayed over and over again on this board.
 
mlsrar
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RE: Any Possibility Of A NW MKE-AMS Flight?

Wed Apr 21, 2004 7:26 am

However, I’ll ask you and the rest of a.net one more time to provide concrete evidence that NW’s expansion within the MKE market is an attempt to knock-off YX.

After reading your comments concering me, and again blindly generalizing, its certainly not worth my time responding to you. Secondly, I think you have the wrong idea...I could care less whether or not YX fails...my allegiance is with NW, and they are now, and almost always have been the only carrier I fly out of MKE.

NW seemed to base their expansion on the "...large, loyal customer base in MKE," Sure, I'm one of those. Do you mean to tell me that you believe, honestly believe that Northwest is not eyeing the [relatively] lucrative remnants of the YX business clientele? Oh wait, it was just a move to help YX, right? They wanted to make sure that they were on-the-ball, and had sales and marketing that deliver. NW was checking in and hovering around to keep YX in-check delivering smart scheduling and responsive pricing with unprecedented cost management?

Sorry, Northwest eyed a potential market to dwindle the market share that YX had. Does it bother me...not at all. Is it a smart move, of course...Northwest has better times to the west coast! Their advertising has made them more of a household name than ever in this area. Regardless, you cannot dispute (outside of sheer ignorance) a portion of their intentions.
I mean, for the right price I’ll fight a lion. - Mike Tyson