Bubbinski
Topic Author
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SLC To LGW, CDG, Etc.

Sat Apr 24, 2004 1:49 pm

The SLC-FLL thread got me to thinking: what would the chances be for Delta starting transatlantic service from SLC? I know that the carrier's not in real good financial shape right now, they'll need to get that sorted out first. But when they do, I would hope that they add a transatlantic flight or two. I think that with the region's growing population and its unique attractions (such as ski resorts, etc.), as well as the SLC hub's links to many Western areas there's got to be some market for this.

Bubbinski
"Simplify" - Thoreau
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: SLC To LGW, CDG, Etc.

Sat Apr 24, 2004 1:52 pm

what would the chances be for Delta starting transatlantic service from SLC?

Zero. They've made it quite clear.



would hope that they add a transatlantic flight or two

I suggest a new hobby  Smile
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Ezra
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RE: SLC To LGW, CDG, Etc.

Sat Apr 24, 2004 1:56 pm

Zero. They've made it quite clear.

Just curious, is this the stated policy of the company or a conjecture based on DL's patterns of behavior (i.e., east-coast concentration on ATL, CVG & JFK)?

Thanks!
 
SpeedbirdHeavy
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RE: SLC To LGW, CDG, Etc.

Sat Apr 24, 2004 2:03 pm

SLC is not a big enough market to sustain transatlantic service like the one proposed. I just don't see the capacity for it from a market that size.

Plus, after living there for about 3 years, I wouldn't want some poor unsuspecting European to get their first taste of America from SLC. It could be pretty scarring. Stay the hell away from the place! It's a different planet!
China Airlines...Come fry with us!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: SLC To LGW, CDG, Etc.

Sat Apr 24, 2004 2:33 pm

is this the stated policy of the company or a conjecture based on DL's patterns of behavior (i.e., east-coast concentration on ATL, CVG & JFK)?

Lil' bit o' both...

...SLC's offered incentive packages and other promotions in order to spur DL into providing even seasonal nonstop transatlantic service, and to no avail.

In fact, in mid 2001... DL had plans for FLL, MSY, and BOS nonstop to CDG; all ahead of SLC. None of them came to fruition.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
757KSLC
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RE: SLC To LGW, CDG, Etc.

Sat Apr 24, 2004 2:41 pm

"Plus, after living there for about 3 years, I wouldn't want some poor unsuspecting European to get their first taste of America from SLC. It could be pretty scarring. Stay the hell away from the place! It's a different planet!"

LOL! Ouch! As much as I would like to argue your opinion, I'm not even going to touch that. Everyone has their own opinion, some people love it here, some people hate it. There is no in the middle. Sorry you had a bad experience.
 
EddieDude
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RE: SLC To LGW, CDG, Etc.

Sat Apr 24, 2004 2:47 pm

Why would Europeans visit Salt Lake City's ski resorts when they have their own in Austria, Switzerland and France???
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
757KSLC
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RE: SLC To LGW, CDG, Etc.

Sat Apr 24, 2004 3:02 pm

Same reason a lot of Americans go to Europe to ski. Just for a change.
 
Lufthansa
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RE: SLC To LGW, CDG, Etc.

Sat Apr 24, 2004 3:10 pm

EddieDude

I can answer that question. Its the snow. its amazing. There is nothing like it in europe as far as quality of the powder is concerned. It would only be hard core european skiiers or wealthy europeans because it costs a lot more to ski in america than it does in say, Austria, but if you really want to ski in the most amazing powder snow anywhere, its in Utah and Colorado.

As for SLC... well I used to live up in Deer Valley, the ski resort about 40 minutes drive outside salt lake because im a bit of a mad skiier myself. In the last few years, a lot of ppl from California have shifted to SLC, and its no longer the place it used to be. Infact only about 50% of SLC are mormans now... the rest are from San Fran and LA. Yes, its a regional place. Europeans flying into SLC aren't going there to see SLC itself... but to go to the rocky mountains. However, I doubt that will be much business in itself..most of those ppl are now flying into DEN on BA or LH at the moment and connecting thru. The big market, at least for delta, would be to draw on the large population in the region. The can realistically fly ppl from Portland, Seattle, Vancover, San Fran, LA, Las Vagas, Montana, Boise, arizona and even Denver. They've just got to take advantage of the hub. The trouble is, there not going to sell a lot of business class tickets, and thats where the money is to be made. I think it could still support say, 2x 764s a week. if you were smart, you would market this to connect thru to Honolulu and you could tap into the british market that wants to go to hawaii. (although it aint tha big, it all helps fill the plan). Or maybe a triangle flight to Las Vagas. eg... LAS-SLC-LGW-LAS. The rocky mountains are an amazing place...even if both SLC and Denver are a little boring themselves. There definately could be a big tourist market if its done right.

PS - you may have more luck getting Air France to send a 332 across the pond a few times a week.

[Edited 2004-04-24 08:19:07]
 
SpeedbirdHeavy
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RE: SLC To LGW, CDG, Etc.

Sat Apr 24, 2004 3:18 pm

Why would Europeans visit Salt Lake City's ski resorts when they have their own in Austria, Switzerland and France???

That's very true. The only thing Utah has going for it is the skiing. However, Utahns don't really have a worldy view, so the notion of traveling out of the country, let a lone the state, is quite "foreign" to them.

Europeans are quite a liberal and certainly a more forward thinking society. To go to a place like SLC, would be nothing more than instant regression. The idea of visiting a place where the liquor laws are archaic, the resistance to change is constant and the people are downright unfriendly, would be a severe culture shock. Just walk down the streets of SLC and you'll see no one smiles at you. There is no friendly wave to strangers. Born and bred Utahns are mostly robotic and emotionless. Plus, there is no such thing as customer service. Like I said, it's another planet.

So, I revert to my original statement that there would not be enough capacity to support transatlantic flights.

China Airlines...Come fry with us!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: SLC To LGW, CDG, Etc.

Sat Apr 24, 2004 3:37 pm

I think it could still support say, 2x 764s a week

DL 764ERs do not operate intercontinentally



Or maybe a triangle flight to Las Vagas. eg... LAS-SLC-LGW-LAS

Nonstop LAS-LGW is specifically off limit to all USA carriers.




you may have more luck getting Air France to send a 332 across the pond a few times a week.

You'd have more luck squeezing Tinkerbell through your bum cheeks  Big grin

AF's A332s are configured for high-yield,small-capacity markets; the former of which SLC is not.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: SLC To LGW, CDG, Etc.

Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:01 pm

"Zero. They've made it quite clear"

I wouldn't say zero. DL is at the point now where anything is possible. With the right incentives DL will do anything. The major incentive being no incurred costs. This summer you will see a few routes (none being SLC-Europe) that may make you scratch your head. DL will not add a route that will incur any costs even if it is simply $100 to pay a contracted ground service company to turn the aircraft. However SLC-Europe is about as close to zero as you can get.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
jkudall
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RE: SLC To LGW, CDG, Etc.

Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:08 pm

Some of you obviously have a grudge against SLC for some reason. Like 757KSLC said, you either like it here or you don't. It's your opinion, and I don't have a problem with that. Now here is my opinion.

I for one, like it here. The climate's good, it's beautiful, clean, peaceful, traffic is almost nonexistent, and the people are friendly. I can leave my house and be on the slopes in some of the best snow in the world in 20 minutes, boating in Lake Powell, or biking down some of the most challenging trails in the world (i.e. slick rock in Moab) within a few hours. Utah also has five National Parks. Most states don't have any National Parks, let alone five.

Tourism has also picked up dramatically here, especially since the 2002 Olympics. How many other cities can say they hosted the world's largest sporting event?

As far as SLC-Europe service is concerned, this has been brought up several times here, mostly pre-9/11. SLC-London service was actually applied for in the mid to late 90's, but the DOT awarded routes to RDU and somewhere else (I think BNA...not sure) instead.

SLC has been a very worthy hub for DL, and will continue to be. With the large number of people who make connections in SLC everyday (trust me, I deal with them all day long), SLC-LGW would work. There are occaisonal charters from SLC to Europe.

Take a look at some other routes from SLC, like the SLC-HNL route DL flies. This is flight generally has the highest load factor over any of the other routes DL flies to HNL. It goes out full almost every day.

I don't spend much time on these message boards, but I thought I would give my two cents.

I think London is in SLC's future, but it may be a while.


 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: SLC To LGW, CDG, Etc.

Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:22 pm

Jkudall,
you make the common error of equating "full" with "profitable".

No doubt DL could fill a 767 from SLC to Europe, but the yield on such a flight would be 'injustifiable', to put it lightly. Hence the fact that it's never even been planned... let alone done.



think London is in SLC's future, but it may be a while

Should you be holding your breath for that, I suggest you choose this as an opportunity to exhale.  Big grin

SLC is not an alternate gateway for Heathrow nor Gatwick service according to the current bilateral; meaning that for SLC-LON to be operated by Delta, either:
  • Delta would have to operate the service into Stansted/Luton (fat chance)
  • Bermuda II would have to be annulled (fat chance)
  • Bermuda II would have to be modified (has happened before, but at this point-- fat chance)

    ...in other words, you'd be better off buying a hangglider for SLC-LON, because it'll get you there before DL ever does  Big grin
  • Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
     
    757KSLC
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    RE: SLC To LGW, CDG, Etc.

    Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:44 pm

    SpeedbirdHeavy, I don't know how you formed your opinion, but thankfully that's all it is, just your opinion. I have lived here in SLC for almost 3 years now, and I quite enjoy it. Reading your opinion on Utahans unfriendliness, robotic and emotionless and lack of a worldly view, is a shock to me, and I'm sure extremely offensive to any native Utahans who may read this. In my time here, I have encountered quite the opposite. Yea its a very conservative area, I'll give you that, but the people here and just as friendly as anywhere else I have ever lived or visited. Again, I don't know how you formed your opinion, and I'm sorry you had a bad experience, but take your negative, bitter, hating opinion of the SLC area somewhere else. It has no place in these forums. I don't know where you are from originally, but I know you wouldn't want others saying those things you said about your area. I would hope you have enough class to offer the same courtesy.
     
    tomgib
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    RE: SLC To LGW, CDG, Etc.

    Sat Apr 24, 2004 5:11 pm

    757kslc I totally agree with you and I should know as was born and raised in Ogden. Speedbirdheavy plays too much golf in the Phoenix heat....
     
    DeltaAgent1
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    RE: SLC To LGW, CDG, Etc.

    Sat Apr 24, 2004 8:50 pm

    This question has been posed to Delta officials in Station meetings before, and their answer to us has been that Eastbound SLC hub traffic has more choices to European destinations that SLC could ever hope to offer, and the convenience factor would eliminate SLC pulling profitable loads. Most California cities, and those in the Northwest can more conveniently connect to Europe
    through LAX SFO & SEA, (the points where feed would arrive from if Euro destinations were on the route map from SLC) or through farther East coast hubs such as ORD, CVG, ATL, DFW, IAH, JFK, EWR. Local O & D traffic in SLC could not support any European destination according to DL officials, and they used DEN as an example. If I remember correctly when the question was posed to him, he said "do you see a buffet of choices with N/S service to Europe from DEN?, & if DEN doesn't have it with 3 times the O & D traffic as SLC, I'm sure you won't see N/S Euro service from SLC anytime soon.
     
    sushka
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    RE: SLC To LGW, CDG, Etc.

    Sun Apr 25, 2004 4:55 am

    However, Utahns don't really have a worldy view, so the notion of traveling out of the country, let a lone the state, is quite "foreign" to them.

    You must be kidding right? Utah has got to be one of the most well traveled states in the country. I have been to 20 countries, Next door neighbors to at least 10, other neighbors about 5 and so on.

    Im not originally from Utah, and I do prefer my state of Wisconsin but it is just fine.

    I agree that the airport is not big enough for transatlantic flights. Although we did have some good charters during the Olympics and the Aeroflot 777 visits a few months ago were cool.
    Pershoyu Spravoyu Litaki!
     
    B4REAL
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    RE: SLC To LGW, CDG, Etc.

    Sun Apr 25, 2004 5:10 am

    I think we would be more likely (but still not likely) to see SLC-ICN codeshare on KE or SLC-NRT codeshare on NW (even less likely)

    [Edited 2004-04-24 22:13:25]
    B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
     
    anthsaun
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    RE: SLC To LGW, CDG, Etc.

    Sun Apr 25, 2004 9:17 am

    There are two kinds of blind people; the ones their eyes do not send a picture to the brain; and the ones the brain does not get the picture when the eyes work just right.

    I attended college in Utah and I visit back once in a while, so I know the place and the people.

    My intention is to offend no one. I'll just place the facts.

    Sushka is right, people from Utah travel a lot and they really know the world. At age 19, over 70% of men have lived abroad.
    50% of the population is bilingual.
    Several large businesses settle in Utah because they can communicate to the rest of the world in what ever language by Americans, not foreigners.
    There are more computers by citizen in Utah than anywhere else in the world.
    A large amount of new consumer products are tested in Utah because of results accuracy.
    Health quality is top of the Nation.
    GDP per Capita is one of the highest in the Nation. (I hope some guys know what this is).
    50% of the SLC outbound travelers are locals.

    Just a few guys do not fit in Utah, and some of those, do not fit anywhere.

    Well, now let's get back to the Delta issue. One of the facts Delta does not fly to Europe from SLC is because it would kill other flights from CVG, BOS, even ATL.
    Also, we are used to Hubs, and actually, we love them. Even if we depart from a hub, we try to go throw another one before getting to our final destination.
    Over 80 years in business say a lot about success
     
    Bubbinski
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    RE: SLC To LGW, CDG, Etc.

    Mon May 03, 2004 6:54 am

    Others like Sushka, Jkudall have already spoken up so I don't have much to add except that I don't find the people here to be unfriendly and have had many good experiences living in and visiting Utah. Living here is a lot less stressful than living in other places that I know well (less traffic, lower cost of living, less crime etc.) and if I want a good vacation I'm not very far away from Vegas, Wendover, Mesquite, Yellowstone, the Rockies, Sun Valley, Zion/Bryce Canyon, Capitol Reef, Moab, Durango, etc.

    I did read the thread on Bermuda 2 and service to London wouldn't be possible unless some cities were added, but if Skyteam wants to fly to the western U.S. from overseas, why I'd be happy to see some Air France and Korean Air birds flying in from CDG or ICN....

    Bubbinski
    "Simplify" - Thoreau
     
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    Aloha717200
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    RE: SLC To LGW, CDG, Etc.

    Mon May 03, 2004 7:10 am

    I don't get what your problem with SLC is...I practically live in SLC and love the place. It's home. I'm in the city 1-2 times a month and it's been that way since my early childhood, and the only part of the city I don't like to hang around is the southwestern suburbs...West Valley City in particular. But SLC is a great, friendly, very clean town in my experience. We've got beggars and trouble makers like any other urban area does but the city tries to keep the town as clean as possible. In fact a big issue seems to be the ever-present protestors near Temple Square. People protesting the LDS religion and the like. It's really stupid and baseless. I'm not even religious and I still find it stupid.


    There is some prejudice between LDS/non-lds...but it's not a huge deal and if you just ignore it it isn't a problem. Tell me, does Los Angeles, New York, Phoenix, Las Vegas, San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, etc...not have their share of problems? Give me SLC anyday. And this area is gorgeous. No one can top our mountains.


    Now back to the original topic. I sure as heck wish that transatlantic service from SLC would happen, but i don't think it will. It's a huge shame really, SLC would probably be profitable with the right frequency and aircraft. It'd be nice to get Lufthansa in here....imagine an A340 parked at the D gates!!  Big thumbs up
     
    Bubbinski
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    RE: SLC To LGW, CDG, Etc.

    Mon May 03, 2004 7:19 am

    @Aloha 717200

    An A340 parked at the D gates would be cool! And since I live under the flight path I'd get to see it flying in too.

    Maybe when the 7e7 comes out....might that be the right bird for Delta to start an overseas service or two from SLC? I know I'd love to see that bird flying overhead, and I'd love it even more if I got to fly on it.

    Bubbinski
    "Simplify" - Thoreau
     
    KLMyank
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    RE: SLC To LGW, CDG, Etc.

    Mon May 03, 2004 7:24 am

    All us poor Europeans staggering around trying to find a "private drinking club", then lighting a fag on the street and being bashed up by the straight edge.............
     
    762er
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    RE: SLC To LGW, CDG, Etc.

    Mon May 03, 2004 7:29 am

    SpeedbirdHeavy: Wow, that was aggressive. I've been to Utah twice for skiing vacations and enjoyed both immensely. THe people, contrary to your opinion, I found to be abnormally friendly and willing to go out of their way to help. I'm sorry you had a rough experience there, but to generalize the whole Utah population with that kind of negative rhetoric is simply irresponsible.
     
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    Aloha717200
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    RE: SLC To LGW, CDG, Etc.

    Mon May 03, 2004 7:31 am

    The idea of visiting a place where the liquor laws are archaic, the resistance to change is constant and the people are downright unfriendly,


    Gonna agree with you on 2 outta three here. Liquor laws, yes, but that hardly affects me because I don't drink. Resistance to change: Bingo. But if you want to see REAL resistance, mosy on up to southeastern idaho, just north of SLC. That's the actual area I live in. Ultra-conservative areas that haven't changed much or even regressed over the last 30 years. In my hometown the resistance to change is so great that when large employers from california, for example, come here offering to build stores, create jobs and possibly grow the population and job market in the city, they're often turned away. Big, big amounts of business have been shown the door here. Why? The city council doesn't want the city growing larger and thereby requiring more medical/first responder facilities, upkeep of city service, etc. They want the city kept small, and so it stays.

    Back in the 1970s this area was one of the fastest growing in the nation, and well headed towards becoming the "northern population center" of Salt Lake City. you see, orbiting Salt Lake are two major population centers...Ogden to the north, Provo to the south. Had our growth trend from the 70s continued, Pocatello would have been the northern population center, despite being in another state. Our economy directly affects cities like McCammon, Inkom, even Malad, it would have trickled down. We even had real airliners serving the airport in those days.

    A new major and city council squashed that...and southeastern idaho slipped into recession, regression...and here we sit today, much a shadow of what used to be.

    Salt Lake is far more liberal...far more open to change, but still far more conservative than many big cities. There's not much of a night life in Salt Lake. And you know what? The majority like it that way, including me. I like the conservatism in Salt Lake and am glad that it doesn't remind me of Los Angeles.


    But unfriendly? If you want unfriendly bub, Los Angeles is the ticket. I like going to LA, but it's a sigh of relief when I get back to SLC with friendly people that you can actually smile at and not worry about it. You can't even look at people in Los Angeles, can't smile at a stranger. In Salt Lake, you can. This is a friendly area...I don't know what part of the area you lived in, maybe you were in West Valley, or you just had a bad experience, but I've been in this area my whole life and it's not like you're portraying it. Salt Lake strives to be as "clean" as it can...and that means fewer clubs, bars, tobacco stores, etc. Some of us like it that way.
     
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    Aloha717200
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    RE: SLC To LGW, CDG, Etc.

    Mon May 03, 2004 7:42 am

    757kslc I totally agree with you and I should know as was born and raised in Ogden. Speedbirdheavy plays too much golf in the Phoenix heat....

    Now Ogden...that's a city that has a reputation. I haven't experiences anything bad there myself yet, but I've heard quite a few notorious things about that city. We tend to avoid Ogden when we go to Utah every month, aside from the usual passing-through on the freeway.


    Phoenix? If he's from Phoenix he shouldn't be talking about unfriendly people. I had an aunt who lived there, scary place.
     
    Vctony
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    RE: SLC To LGW, CDG, Etc.

    Mon May 03, 2004 7:55 am

    Phoenix and unfriendly people doesn't seem to mesh, at least with me. I find the people in Phoenix to be some of the friendliest of people I've ever met (I also happen to live in the Phoenix area).
     
    TWA902fly
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    RE: SLC To LGW, CDG, Etc.

    Mon May 03, 2004 8:05 am

    If we're talking about cities in Utah with a bad reputation... Tooele (if thats spelled correctly). But anyways... I personally like Salt Lake myself but realistically i dont think any service will be added to Europe anytime soon, Whoever said about the fact that you cant fly to London from Salt Lake because theres no bilateral agreement... well i doubt anywhere besides London would work as a destination from Salt Lake unless its CDG because of the AF codeshare... i just dont see a point to SLC-Europe flights, its too small and too far away. It is in the west and i would see flights to many east coast cities being added before SLC. Any connection to London from SLC can be made through ATL/CVG, and if youre talking about the smaller cities in the west such as Pasco or Billings, we'll im sure they're used to flying with more than 1 connection anyways so if they really want to get to London i doubt Delta would fly a 767 just for them.

    The can realistically fly ppl from Portland, Seattle, Vancover, San Fran, LA, Las Vagas, Montana, Boise, arizona and even Denver.

    PDX, SEA, YVR, SFO, LAX, LAS, PHX, TUS, DEN all have Delta flighst to ATL/CVG, making this flight pointless. as for Montana and Boise, well you could take Delta on a double connection trip through SLC and then ATL/CVG or you could fly to Europe on UA or NW... UA has a daily BOI-ORD morning flight for your connecting convenience, as well as BOI-SFO (for both Europe and Asia) and NW has BOI-MSP which can get you to Europe as well, and knowing SLC's ever-high ticket prices, anything would be cheaper than flying to Europe through Salt Lake...

    TWA902
    life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on