UALPHLCS
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TED To PHL Unconfirmed

Sun Apr 25, 2004 10:27 am

Today the big rumor running around PHL was that Ted is coming to PHL. And not the routes you might think.

The substance is that Ted is to fly out of D2 and D4. US employees apparently seem to think that UA is getting those gates as well. In addition a ramp supervisor said an airport employee asked him about when UA was taking over D2 and 4.

Additonally, Ted will supliment UA's DEN and ORD flights but the really big news is Ted is rumored to be flying PHL-FLL.

Now I can't tell if this is a rumor that has grown a life of its own or if the peices that people have put together mean its true. Anyone from US know about the gate switch? Anybody from UA heard similar rumors aout PHL?

With WN and F9 coming in it makes alot of sense, but don;t want to believe an unverified story.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
PVD757
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RE: TED To PHL Unconfirmed

Sun Apr 25, 2004 10:53 am

It makes little sense for UA to do that route as it would add nothing more than insult to injury on the part of their code-share partner US. I'm strongly voting for the "nothing more than a rumor" on this one...
 
MSYtristar
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RE: TED To PHL Unconfirmed

Sun Apr 25, 2004 10:56 am

TED shoots for leisure-oriented markets, and PHL is anything but that. I wouldn't hold my breath for this one.


Steve/MSY
 
scottysair
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RE: TED To PHL Unconfirmed

Sun Apr 25, 2004 11:00 am

As for PHL-FLL is competition with US, WN & FL and maybe will think make decide to begin nonstop from PHL-FLL on UA. It is good to make more people flying to Florida flight.
 
aa757first
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RE: TED To PHL Unconfirmed

Sun Apr 25, 2004 1:05 pm

Against Southwest and AirTran? I don't think so.

AAndrew
 
LoneStarMike
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RE: TED To PHL Unconfirmed

Sun Apr 25, 2004 1:20 pm

Additonally, Ted will supliment UA's DEN and ORD flight

I thought I remembered reading that Ted and UA wouldn't be competing on the same city pairs. Is that not correct?

LoneStarMike

 
UALPHLCS
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RE: TED To PHL Unconfirmed

Mon Apr 26, 2004 11:31 am

As I said this is unconfirmed. I'm actually trolling for information to try and sort all this out. Story is Ted will have 6 flights out of PHL. FLL is the only one that people seem to agree on.

Today many agents who got this news didn't believe it because they had heard UA was moving down to A West.

This didn't make sense to me because UA is the only airline to lay ground fuel pipe in. That kind of infrastructure just isn't abandoned.

So there are some wild stories floating around. Anyone who can confirm or debunk them is welcome to try.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
UALFAson
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RE: TED To PHL Unconfirmed

Mon Apr 26, 2004 12:07 pm

I am in no way "in the loop" and this is just my personal opinion, but TED out of PHL doesn't make sense. TED is meant for leisure markets with lots of people on discounted tickets and currently empty first class cabins, as well as the benefit of connecting to mainline flights through UA hubs.

I have to believe there's enough business traffic out of PHL to justify continued mainline UA service. If PHL were to go TED, why not any other city?

And yes, LoneStarMike, I believe you're right...TED and UA will not compete on routes. In some cases when a route first goes TED, both UA and TED aircraft will be used, but only until enough TED planes are brought into service.
"We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
 
TonyBurr
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RE: TED To PHL Unconfirmed

Mon Apr 26, 2004 12:18 pm

I prefer the rumor that UA will move to A-West! That would be GREAT! It is empty during the day. Now how about this for "not even a rumor" but if UA does move to A West this could be part of the "rumor" that UA was buying some of US routes, and since A West is the US international departure area ... Could it POSSIBLY be that UA will start international from PHL? Now let's see how this "not even a rumor" floats!!!!!!!

 
MAH4546
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RE: TED To PHL Unconfirmed

Mon Apr 26, 2004 12:18 pm

The only bit of sense I see in this is that TED at PHL is meant to combat Southwest Airlines. US Airways would probably codeshare on these flights, and while US Airways does not take in revenue from codeshare, there are obvious marketing advantages.

a.
 
tcfc424
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RE: TED To PHL Unconfirmed

Mon Apr 26, 2004 12:30 pm

In the greater scheme of things, if this rumor were true, I could see a few reasons for this move by UA/Ted.

1) FLL is definitely a leisure market, and could represent some % of market share if the fares are competitive and service is good.

2) PHL is the newest city added by WN, thus making it vulnerable as a new entrant. If TED is worried about WN affecting its routes, this would make sense, as TED tries to convert customers looking for a cheap fare and good service (not saying WN doesn't offer those).

3) This could be a preemption to upgrade TED flights to mainline UA flights if US fails...i.e. Ted comes in, grabs market share, attacks US, then upgrades from TED to UA on previous US routes when (if) US fails.

PHL is already getting ready to look like a war zone to the bean counters, and if this rumor is true, I would think that the writing is on the wall for US...all those LCC's, and one with loyalty/rewards incentives to be used globally. I would think, IMHO, that this is the best move TED could make right now. We shall see how this all plays out, it will be very interesting for the folks in PHL one way or another.

Mike S. in AUS

Just my .02 pesos
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: TED To PHL Unconfirmed

Mon Apr 26, 2004 12:38 pm

BTW PHL has always been a big business city for UA. That's why it was one of the Biz One cities. But with WN and F9 coming to town PHL's yeilds will diminsh. Maybe not to the point of BWI's but it will have an impact.

I got to think that UA has to do something. DL was only flying in 737's and 727's not too long ago. FL's impact has made 757's and 767's a daily occurance for DL.

One would reasonably expect that F9 and WN would do the same to UA in DEN and ORD.

On other thing, I too would love a move to A west. Apparently, F9 is suppesed to leave from their and it is used for some domestic routes by US and others. But mostly it would mean that I would work in Tinicum Township and NOT Philadelphia. That means as a Jersey resident I would be exempt from the Philly wage tax and It would be an automatic 4% raise. However, I still see major obstacles to that move. Not the least of which is the ground fuel issue and the number of gates. A West only has 12 or so gates. UA currently operates 7 gates. However, the connection convienience for US and UA passengers would increase dramatically.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
TonyBurr
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RE: TED To PHL Unconfirmed

Mon Apr 26, 2004 12:43 pm

UALPHLCS

That is really interesting about A West and the tax. I never thought of that. Tinicum vs Philadelphia wage tax? Question then, the US agents that work in A West are they dedicated there so that the tax issue falls in place? How do they work it ( if you know) about assignments ( check in, gate, USAirways Club) and the tax issue? Fascinating!
 
USAFHummer
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RE: TED To PHL Unconfirmed

Mon Apr 26, 2004 12:59 pm

I think the boundary between Philadelphia and Delaware County runs through the walkway connecting A-East to B?

Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
freshlove1
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RE: TED To PHL Unconfirmed

Mon Apr 26, 2004 1:56 pm

It is only compitition with US if it is not a code share flight, otherwise it is actually in US favor if TED puts some flights in PHL. TED or UA is not attacking US, if they were they would not be code sharing.
 
LAXintl
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RE: TED To PHL Unconfirmed

Mon Apr 26, 2004 2:36 pm

There will be more growth announced for TED in the near future. The initials plans were for a 45 aircraft fleet. The IAD flying just begun recently and the ORD flying is around the corner next month.

However please keep the following in mind before getting too excited that TED might start flying to PHL.

1 - TED is geared for Leisure markets. Initially to replace mainline on routes that were low yield.
2 - TED will not operate any route at the same time as mainline, so thus you can forget PHL-ORD and PHL-DEN becoming TED unless if UA totaly gives up on the premium business traffic ex PHL.

Another little tidbit however is to remember is that TED in the future can launch point to point service and connect cities not currently served by mainline. From reading a past Q&A regarding TED, while its initial growth has been from hub cities, there is no reason why future growth cannot be on routes overflying hubs. So a PHL-LAS for instance could be an option.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
UA744Flagship
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RE: TED To PHL Unconfirmed

Mon Apr 26, 2004 2:41 pm

The rumor going around is that United will convert its deferred A319/A320 orders into A321 aircraft for the mainline (and have all 43 examples delivered by the end of 2005), while more A320s are converted to Ted.

Net result... 319s/321s become mainline staples, 320 = Ted.

Again, rumor only. But then again, who was right about the new paint scheme despite throngs of doubters? Big grin
no wire hangers!
 
UALFAson
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RE: TED To PHL Unconfirmed

Mon Apr 26, 2004 3:00 pm

TonyBurr, you are a bad, bad man!! Suggesting UA int'l service out of PHL...  Smile

I can see the threads now...Wait, it's the whole "B6 is coming to SAT/DFW/insert-favorite-city-here!!!!!" game all over again.

Oh, BTW, did I forget to mention I heard that NW is retiring their DC-9s??  Laugh out loud
"We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
 
usairways85
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RE: TED To PHL Unconfirmed

Mon Apr 26, 2004 3:19 pm

I think the rumor that UA will move to A-west is a rumor at best. US has about 12 gates in the terminal and has to operate on average 10 daily flts from Europe and probably around 10-12 Caribbean flts on weekdays and 20-23 on weekends. I dont see how UA can fit into the terminal while US still operates its flts from there. Unless UA plans to operate internationally from PHL, but i still think that's a ways off.
 
FLY777UAL
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RE: TED To PHL Unconfirmed

Mon Apr 26, 2004 4:12 pm

A321's, huh? That's pretty interesting...would definitely be fun to see!

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
PHLapproach
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RE: TED To PHL Unconfirmed

Mon Apr 26, 2004 8:23 pm

I'm assuming none of you have seen Paul Kanagie's new pic of TED at PHL! That would be nice if they started PHL - FLL service, it would be my first time on TED. I do have a feeling that United will still be operating codeshare with US to FLL and will not be separating service. Seams like ALOT of UA rumors floating around.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: TED To PHL Unconfirmed

Mon Apr 26, 2004 9:01 pm

I think the boundary between Philadelphia and Delaware County runs through the walkway connecting A-East to B?

I hate to break the news to you all, but if you work ANYWHERE in the airport terminal buildings even if it's on the Tinicum Township side, it IS considered working in the City of Philadelphia, and hence, subject to the city wage tax.

Want proof? Just ask any City of Philadelphia Division Of Aviation employee whose office base is situated at the International (old Scott) Plaza located near Cargo City (west of the terminals and in Tinicum Township); they will be the FIRST to tell you that they're subject to the Philly wage tax.

With regards to TED coming to PHL is concerned, could somebody please STATE THE SOURCE of information. To date there has not been ONE news article talking about this. The only news articles about PHL I've seen have been US' woes and WN coming to PHL. Yesterday's Business section of the Philly Inquirer devoted 2 pages about WN and how they run their business.


[Edited 2004-04-26 14:05:50]
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: TED To PHL Unconfirmed

Mon Apr 26, 2004 10:06 pm

PHLBOS, anyone who resides in PHL pays the wage tax, so if they live in Philly and work in Tinicum or Timbuctu Philly takes a big wet bite out of thier paycheck. If you live outside of Philly and work in Philly same thing. But for us non Philly residents Working on the Tinicum part of the airport is Tax Free. Anyone from A to A west to Cargo City, and the UPS terminal across the way are exempt. I know I used to work for UPS on Hog Island Rd. The building is yards away from the county line to take advantage of that. Additionally all of our Airfrieght people are non City wage tax. When they contracted out air frieght in PHL and the agents moved over to D, you should have heard them howl over the loss in wages.

TonyBurr to answer your question, US has full bidding on those slots. So agents bid to be International or A terminal for the tax benefit. As I said Philly residents have to pay becasue they live in Philly, so the bidder for that live in Jersey or the surrounding Counties.

It's a messed up situation, but then if it wasn't it wouldn't be Philadelphia.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
TonyBurr
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RE: TED To PHL Unconfirmed

Mon Apr 26, 2004 10:37 pm

UALPHLCS

Thanks for that information. It is crazy! Very interesting.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: TED To PHL Unconfirmed

Mon Apr 26, 2004 10:49 pm

But for us non Philly residents Working on the Tinicum part of the airport is Tax Free. Anyone from A to A west to Cargo City, and the UPS terminal across the way are exempt.

To clarify my earlier statement. ANY tenant business that is located INSIDE the terminals (whose landlord is the City of Philadelphia DOA) is considered working in Philadelphia. All wage tax rules for NON-city residents apply here. If it didn't, all the business stands/shops/etc. would only be at Terminal A (West & East). ALL the parking garages adjacent to the airport are run by the Philadelphia Parking Authority (PPA), and are also, subject to Philadelphia location tax rules, etc.

If I'm not mistaken, UPS' airport headquarters at Hog Island Road is actually UPS-owned property is NOT part of the Division of Aviation, and hence not subject to the City of Philadelphia tax rules charters, etc.

Businesses located in International Plaza (except the DOA offices) are considered to be (and rightly so) Tinicum Township. As far as the Cargo City businesses are concerned, it depends on WHO actually owns the buildings. If the business' landlords are the DOA, then it's considered to be a Philadelphia. If the landlord is anyone else, then local (Tinicum) tax laws apply.

All this is another reason why Tinicum Township is not too thrilled everytime the airport expands westward. The terminal buildings on the Tinicum side produce ZERO tax revenue for the township; it all goes to the City of Philadelphia.

One proof of my earlier statement would be how many ATA employees that work at PHL saw a change in deductions on their paycheck when they moved from Terminal E to A-East?

[Edited 2004-04-26 16:12:57]
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
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RE: TED To PHL Unconfirmed

Tue Apr 27, 2004 12:06 pm

IF we have any TZ employees in PHL we can ask them. But I know what the UA Air frieght people experienced and I know what I hear from US employees who work south of the county line.

BTW the plot thickens.

In an effort to refute the rash of Ted and moving rumors a supervisor told us today that ALL of the leases for PHL gates are up in two years. According to them in two years we can reasonably expect a big shake up in PHL gate space. Much of this is due to the ambitious redesign of the D and E terminals.

So we will have to see.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
haveric
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RE: TED To PHL Unconfirmed

Tue Apr 27, 2004 12:41 pm

What has been posted is correct -- all business within the terminal buildings is considered to be in Philadelphia for tax purposes. Additionally, the airport is controlled by the City's Department of Aviation (in the Commerce Dept).

Regarding gate space at PHL, the airport has said repeatedly that they will not sign exclusive lease deals w/ any airlines. Every gate will be preferentially leased, opening more gates to a variety of airlines.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: TED To PHL Unconfirmed

Tue Apr 27, 2004 10:09 pm

But I know what the UA Air freight people experienced and I know what I hear from US employees who work south of the county line.

UALPHLCS,

Not to beat a dead horse, but the answer to your above-comment was already addressed (see below-statement).

As far as the Cargo City businesses are concerned, it depends on WHO actually owns the buildings. If the business' landlords are the DOA, then it's considered to be a Philadelphia. If the landlord is anyone else, then local (Tinicum) tax laws apply.

No doubt, the freight facilities that you mentioned are probably located in Cargo City. Many (not sure if all) of those freight and cargo buildings are owned by either the airlines or outside lessors. That being the case, then the taxation issue would be treated as if it were a Tinicum Township business. However, if the DOA is the landlord (the agency's full title is the City of Philadelphia, Department of Commerce, Division of Aviation); then the situation would be treated as if the business was located in Philadelphia proper. The reason being that the DOA is a CITY agency.

I know all this because for nearly 14 years I have worked in a transportation engineering firm that has had the DOA as one of its primary clients for over 30 years. The firm has worked on various projects over at PHL (and PNE) including Terminal A-West and F, Runway 8-26, Terminal B-C consolidation, and the US Airways Maintenance Hangar to name a few.


[Edited 2004-04-27 15:14:43]
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
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RE: TED To PHL Unconfirmed

Wed Apr 28, 2004 10:04 am

Point taken. It is a major dissapointment for alot of people.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.

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