Superfly
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Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:10 pm



http://www.cubana.cu
click on Flota

Sorry if this has already been brought up.

Does anyone know when Cubana gets it's first A330 and or have they got it yet?
Id like to see photos in the database.

Would have been nice to see them get the IL-96 or A340.
There IL-62s have lots of life left in them.
Bring back the Concorde
 
LVZXV
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:07 pm

The DC-10s, which were on lease from AOM/AirLib, are now in "corrosion corner" at HAV. They fly no more. As for the A330s, I think CU is wet-leasing a couple already. They've done the same with A320s from TACA.


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The Il-62s do have life left, that's for sure. But, to the best of my knowledge, there are only 3 or 4 still in service. The rest have been wfu or cannibalised, while the last Tu-154 was retired at least 3 years ago. Something tells me the logistics of maintaining the ex-Soviet fleet are getting tougher and tougher, and that CU is becoming desperate to acquire newer Western aircraft. If the Il-96 wasn't produced so slowly, it would be a worthwhile investment, but the way things stand, it's not. Expect to see A320s, A330s and MAYBE A340s joining CU in the not too distant future...

XV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
scottysair
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:08 pm

Yeah, I did not know about Cubana was make orders with A330 aircraft. Which one will used with their -200 or 300? Can you find out about them.
 
BA
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:13 pm

How did this order go through? What about the embargo the US has on Cuba preventing them from buying US products or products that contain US parts?

Airbus aircraft do contain American parts.

I know they were seriously looking at the IL-96 because of the embargo.

So what exactly changed?

Regardless, the livery looks excellent on the A330.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
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scbriml
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:15 pm

I don't think Cubana has ordered A330s. They are currently leasing two from NovAir:
SE-RBF A330-223 c/n 353
SE-RBG A330-223 c/n 362
Sadly, neither of these planes are operated in Cubana's colours.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
LVZXV
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:23 pm

ScottysAir:

-200s, I believe.

BA:

Whatever US-manufactured parts Airbuses contain, the Libyans and Iranians have either done-away with them or used some good ol' lateral thinking (probably the latter!). In the case of the DC-10s, (US-built, of course), I doubt the French had any qualms (or problems) with throwing some spares into the deal (on the orders of Jospin...), and CU first operated an Irish-registered A320 (from TransAer) in 1999.
Would you know exactly what parts the US manufactures for Airbus, BTW? If you're talking engines, those don't need to come from the manufacturer...

XV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
BA
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:38 pm

Would you know exactly what parts the US manufactures for Airbus, BTW?

Honeywell is a very large avionics manufacturer for airliners. Rockwell is another big one.

There are other components also made by US manufacturers but I don't know any other specifics.

I know that Airbus aircraft contain more American parts than many people realize.

That's why I always laugh when Airbus vs. Boeing arguments erupt and you have users saying "Airbus are made of cheap European plasticy stuff."  Smile

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
LVZXV
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:03 pm

Whatever the case, embargoes are never watertight...  Big grin

XV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
sxmarbury33
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:10 pm

This just came to me couldnt an airline like bahamas air or something buy the A330's and then once delivered sell them to Cubana? wouldnt that be a simple way to avoid the embargo.
 
LVZXV
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:20 pm

Simpler still, just keep them off the CU-registry. That's the only way they've operated western types in the past!

XV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
BA
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:20 pm

This just came to me couldnt an airline like bahamas air or something buy the A330's and then once delivered sell them to Cubana? wouldnt that be a simple way to avoid the embargo.

This is technically illegal and if Bahamas Air did this and the Bahamian government let them go through with the transaction, the Bahamian government would be in big trouble.

It's basically the same idea as during the Cold War, you sell American technology to the Soviet, you are a traitor.  Smile

Anyways, you still have the issue of spare parts as well. Once the US finds out that Bahamas Air sold the A330s to Cuba, the US will block any attempt for Bahamas Air to acquire spare parts for the aircraft because they know they would be going to Cuba.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
aguilo
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:42 pm

Cubana de Aviacion probably got around the embargo by leasing the planes. The embargo prevents the sale of US products to Cuba but in a lease, the product is still owned by some other "non-Cuban" entity.

Whay I really wonder about is where did they get that late model Ford F Series truck that they are using as a Ground Support Vehicle as shown in the bottom right hand of the picure!?!?
 
Russophile
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Wed Apr 28, 2004 3:17 pm

Superfly, they already do have Il-96-300s  Big grin

http://www.aviatsiya.ru/forums/image.php?iid=66

And they are on order.
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:39 pm

Russophile

That pic is laughably "photoshopped" and while it looks great, it certainly in no way looks authentic.

In mirth
MH

come visit the south pacific
 
viscount
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Wed Apr 28, 2004 6:57 pm

Cubana lease their A330s from Novair and I do believe that they have IL96-300s on order.
 
Guest

RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:12 pm

Cuba-embargo from Europe? Never heared about it. Also no travel restrictions from European countries. So why should Cubana buy the 330 via Bahamasair?
 
Leskova
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:17 pm

Stefan, the amount of US parts in A330s prevents it's sale to Cuba, Iran and other countries that the US has an embargo against - so the fact that there is no trade embargo from Europe to Cuba doesn't change the fact that Airbus cannot legally sell A330s (with or without engines, the problem remains) to Cubana (and neither could Bahamasair - legally, that is - just to keep that example alive).
Smile - it confuses people!
 
chepos
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:21 pm

Something similar happened with Iran Air
They ordered some A330's, the U.S. government prohibited the aircraft to be delivered and the Iranians were left without A330's. What has heppened to the Iran Air A330 orders?
It's a pity those A330-200's aren't in Cubana colors- that would be a sight.

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- A pic of a Novair A330 coming into MAD from HAV operating for Cubana.
I believe Blue Panorama (Italy) opearated 767 flights for Cubana from Italy to Cuba.
Chepols
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solnabo
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:51 pm

Of course Cuba will order a/c from €urope! Nooway in hell they buy anything from the "capitalistic USA" as long Castro is the dictator.....whatta pitty!
Superfly: Great c/s of Cubana Big grin

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solnabo
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Wed Apr 28, 2004 10:00 pm

BTW, Novair want the 330´s back for the summercharter flights, its extremely cheap now to Canay Island / Mallorca / Cyprus etc. etc. etc.
*Have a great summer*

Michael//SE  Big thumbs up
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JAL
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Wed Apr 28, 2004 10:02 pm

I didn't even know that Cubana ordered the A330.
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Greg
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Wed Apr 28, 2004 10:07 pm

The monetary equivalent of US made/manufactured/provided parts is such that for every widebody Airbus sold...is the equivalent of Boeing selling a single 717. Source is Airbus.

So, I guess the US content is fairly significant. Although I wonder about the statement since so much of the 717 itself is made in Korea, etc.....
 
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scbriml
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Thu Apr 29, 2004 2:19 am

JAL, see reply 4!  Smile
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cx340
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Thu Apr 29, 2004 3:55 am

Could anyone tell me where in the documents that compose the legal foundation for the Cuban Embrago is it stated that US goods cannot be sold to Cuban individuals, companies or entities?

I am not an expert on the matter, but from what I can remember, the CUban embargo documents prohibit (i) US individuals or companies, and (ii) foreign subsidiaries of US companies or individualls outside the US, to perform unauthorized commercial transactions with Cuban entities, individuals or foreign companies controlled by Cuba, and also foreign companies to perform, in general terms, commercial transactions with assets located in Cuba that were effectively seized from their original US owners by Castro and his government (Helms-Burton Act).

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but Airbus does not fall in any of the above categories. Therefore, and even if an A330 was made entirely of US parts, and unless there is a specific rule preventing non US controlled foreign companies to sell products made in the US (but purchased by the foreign company, i.e Airbus, and therefore no more US property) that I'm unaware of, there is no legal prohibition, wether enacted considering applicable international law or not (I'm not even going to go there), that prevent Airbus from selling in full any of its products to Cuba.

Before anyone starts bashing me, I'm not pro Castro or anything like it. I'm just trying to state an unbiased opinion, and as I mentioned before I might be wrong since I don't have full knowledge of the terms of the Cuban embargo.

 
Superfly
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Thu Apr 29, 2004 9:23 am

Good replys folks but a few thinks aren't adding up.

1. Even then IL-96 has some western parts in it as well, right?

2. Cubana operated the DC-10, so where did they get there parts from for the DC-10s as well as the DC-8s they used to operate?

3. If they can lease an A330, can't they also lease a 747 or 777?

4. What percentage of US/non-US parts does this stupid embargo apply?


Bring back the Concorde
 
Superfly
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Thu Apr 29, 2004 11:05 am

Wasn't there some Cubana DC-10s in the database at one time?

How soon will Cubana get the IL-96?

One would think, since Russia is no longer Communist and now Capitalist, they would be very productive with millions of immigrants flocking there.


Oooops I didn't mean to open up that can of worms!  Embarrassment

[Edited 2004-04-29 04:09:00]
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LVZXV
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Thu Apr 29, 2004 11:53 am

Superfly:

Cubana DC-10s? See Reply 1. As for spares, well they were French-operated and the PM at the time was Lionel Jospin...no problems there.  Big grin
Russia? CAREFUL!!!

XV

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Superfly
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Thu Apr 29, 2004 11:59 am

LVZXV:
Not knocking Russia at all.
Look at my favorite jets in my profile. I've even broke the law to visit Cuba and fly on an IL-62.

I guess my comment was more political.
I'll save that for the non-aviation threads.  Smile
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airliner777
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Thu Apr 29, 2004 2:12 pm

Superfly:
Thank you for bringing the subject into the matter. Cubana only has four IL-62Ms left in operation.

CUT1280
CUT1282
CUT1283
CUT1284

The rest have been set aside for spare parts, restaurants, etc. The DC-10s where on lease from AOM, and Air Liberte, so they took care of the maintenance issues.

Now, Castro will never allow Cubana to buy any American-made aircraft. He will stay away from the "Yankees" as long as he's there. It is not an embargo problem, believe me!  Big grin

Those IL-96-300s will be leased by Cubana with option to buy. These aircrafts will operate regular revenue flights in a 2-class configuration holding up to 269 pax. Business class will be retrofitted into VIP configuration when needed by Castro to fly somewhere. So, in other words, sadly the IL-62Ms will be phased out soon.  Sad


Regards,
Adel
 
LVZXV
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Thu Apr 29, 2004 3:32 pm

Look, I think we have to see those IL-96s before we can believe them. Russia's not exactly churning them out like hot-cakes for the time being, and only 10 of the 30 ordered have actually been delivered. Relax, the 13-15-year-old IL-62s still have some years left... Does anyone know ALL the routes the -62s fly from HAV, besides LPA, GRU, MEX and EZE?

XV

P.S. I just cautioned you on Russia because to say that it is "capitalist" is still VERY controversial. Others say Putin is the new tsar... Let's leave it at that!  Big grin

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
miamix707
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Thu Apr 29, 2004 4:47 pm

Whay I really wonder about is where did they get that late model Ford F Series truck that they are using as a Ground Support Vehicle as shown in the bottom right hand of the picure!?!?

through Canada

the IL-96 I read somewhere they should be getting them within 2 years. But I doubt how much airline service they will see. They'll likely be used for Castro and people from his government.
 
miamix707
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Thu Apr 29, 2004 4:55 pm

Small note: the third DC-10 from left to right (F-GHOI) is now "in exile" in the Opa Locka airport in Miami being broken up.


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airliner777
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Thu Apr 29, 2004 5:10 pm

CU IL-62s

From HAV to: MDZ, MEX, MVD, SCL, SDQ, BOG, EZE, CUN, CCS, COR, GRU, LPA
From VRA to: CCS
From CYO to: EZE
From CMW to: EZE
From HOG to: EZE
From EZE to: VRA


My 0.02 Cents!  Big grin
Adel
 
miamix707
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Thu Apr 29, 2004 6:11 pm

Hola Adel

The only destination i've seen the IL-62 used more regularly is SDQ. I think Lima and Bogota get it once a week now. Others like MEX don't get it anymore, and others get it seasonally. They used it on the Nassau flight the other day, it seems like it's been used more for the shorter or less lucrative destinations than before.

oye when are you going to stop by the airport? we've got a bigger group of people now, u gotta stop by sometime. I see you posted some pictures on the database, I take it you finally got your camera  Smile
 
airliner777
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:47 am

That's right Mario, Cubana doens't want to risk crossing their IL-62Ms accross the pond anymore!  Smile

Oye, I talked to Carlos, and the other guys there the other day when I went to take some pictures. I've been getting familiar with my new camera, and I've seen nice outcomes so far!! Send me an email when you plan on going:

airliner777@yahoo.com


Saludos,
Adel
 
Superfly
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:29 am

LVZXV:
Is there anything Cubana could or would do to get Ilyushin to speed up production of the IL-96?

I hate to see them lose out to Boeing and Airbus. I think the IL-96 is an fascinating aircraft. It would certainly make spotting more interesting. I am getting bored of 777s and A330s.

What if Fidel Castro goes within the next 2-3 years? Will the IL-96 order be cancelled in favor of A330s or 777s?
Bring back the Concorde
 
Russophile
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:07 pm

At this stage delivery is set down for 2 Il-96-300, including 1 Il-96-300M for 1Q 2005 -- financing is now in place. Rubtsov says it's all steam ahead.
 
Superfly
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Fri Apr 30, 2004 5:18 pm

That's fantastic! That means Cubana will get some new Russian aircraft that is stage III compliant. Therefore when the embargo is lifted (10 years maybe), we will have some IL-96 traffic here in the U.S.Damn Aeroflot for using Boeings on there flights to the U.S.  Pissed
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PanAm747
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Sat May 01, 2004 1:05 am

Here's my understanding of how Cubana gets around the embargo:

The airplanes, while flying under the Cuban flag, are leased to Cubana, with ownership of the plane belonging to a third country.

A loophole in the Helms-Burton act does not punish foreigners from doing business with Cuba. Therefore, if Cubana has a plane that needs an American part, then the third party (not subject to the embargo) orders it for themselves, and then turns around and re-sells to Cubana. I believe a similar arrangement has been done for Iran Air and their old Boeings for many years, with a Swiss holding company as the middle man.

The embargo isn't what it used to be. In 1962, I believe, a Continental 707 was hijacked out of Phoenix. The gunman demanded to be taken to Cuba. American officials were desperate to keep this advanced airplane out of Cuban, and therefore Soviet, hands. Today, American charter flights arrive every day, and Boeing and Airbus technologies are all over the place.

Here's my question: When the USSR was around, credits and barter were common. Now with the demise of the Soviet Union, hard currency is the only acceptable form of payment. Cuba is broke - so how do they order new aircraft?
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miamix707
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Sat May 01, 2004 4:54 am

Cuba is broke - so how do they order new aircraft?

Since the Soviet Union fell, about the only thing Castro has invested in is tourism. The tourist infrastructure seems to work very well. From prostitution, to doctors & other professionals going to work at restaurants and places where the dollar moves. The Cuban peso is essentially worthless now (that's what the typical worker gets paid with) and there is plenty of dollars coming in from foreign investors who have built hotels, etc. In the time el comandante has been there (since '59) there has never been this much push to attract foreign currency though tourism. There are now about 10 airports that receive international flights in the island.

What if Fidel Castro goes within the next 2-3 years? Will the IL-96 order be cancelled in favor of A330s or 777s?

you mean if he dies? but he'll still be there in 2-3 years. There is a good chance you will see the Il-96 in Cubana colors Superfly. As far Aeroflot not bringing the IL-96 here im sure it has to do with some kind of FAA restrctions or something.. yeah im kinda pissed about that also.

I think the IL-96 is an fascinating aircraft. It would certainly make spotting more interesting. I am getting bored of 777s and A330s

Not just the Il-96 but all russian aircraft! Amen to that!  Smile

 
iflyatldl
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Sat May 01, 2004 5:06 am

Besides the website, has anybody actually seen a CU DC-10 without TACA titles? I've searched the data base with no luck. Also, CU's website seems to be solamente en Espanol. Porque? I'm sure there are many other English speeking tourist besides the US(Canada, the UK for instance) who might be interested in CU. I've tried to translate some of it, but my Spanish is a little rusty.  Big grin
Ah, Summer, Fenway Park, Boston Red Sox and Beer.....
 
miamix707
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Sat May 01, 2004 9:23 am

Iflyatldl: scroll down in their main page you'll see a British flag, click it.

There have never been any DC-10s in Cubana colors, don't go by their website. Years ago, before they started leasing western aircraft, a Cuban travel brochure had information about Cubana and they said they had aquired A310 and showed a sketch of it in full colors. They never had this aircraft as far as I know, and definitely an A310 has never worn Cubana colors.

TACA DC-10? You mean AOM? They used AOM DC-10s with additional Cubana titles. Now they use A320s in full TACA colors with Cubana titles on the fuselage, thats it.

 
Superfly
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Mon May 03, 2004 2:22 pm

Thanks for the information. Keep it coing. I am really learning a lot here about Cubana.Now what about possible orders of TU-334 to replace there Yak-42Ds and AN-24s?
Bring back the Concorde
 
A388
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Tue May 04, 2004 3:05 am

I'm confused. I can't find any news that mentions Cubana leasing its 'own' A330's. In their fleet section (flota), it only says that they currently use/lease the A330. Aren't those just the A330's they are now leasing from Novair/Air Luxor instead of new aircraft?

If Cubana is indeed leasing its own A330's, who will lease those A330's to Cubana, will they be new aircraft or second hand? How many will Cubana lease?

Anyway, it's nice news, another A330 customer  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Saludos A388  Wink/being sarcastic
 
gigneil
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Tue May 04, 2004 3:11 am

Would you know exactly what parts the US manufactures for Airbus, BTW? If you're talking engines, those don't need to come from the manufacturer...


A good 40% of the aircraft is American in origin.

It would be impossible to list all the parts. They are both numerous and not easily replacable.

N
 
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usdcaguy
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Tue May 04, 2004 9:05 am

¡Viva la revolución!
 
ltbewr
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Tue May 04, 2004 12:34 pm

It makes sense for Cubana to order Airbus a/c. Most of the tourists to Cuba today are from Europe. There is a long and bitter history between Cuba and the USA, which lead to the 'Revolution' and the anti-american dictatorship of Castro so a desire to not 'Buy Yankee'. The Americans that go there are usually going to Cuba on USA airlines are going to see family members there, bringing mucho dinero and badly needed consumer goods. Right now Bush and the Republicans are supporting reducing the amount of cash US permitted visitors can bring to and leave in Cuba, to hurt Cuba more. While Airbus a/c have considerable amounts of US content, most of the parts and most of the profits go to Europe, including countries that are friendly with Cuba, like Spain. Russian a/c makers are going the way of MD, Fokker, et al. to the great airport in the sky.
I hope someday (hopefully soon!!!) Castro will pass away and a new revolution to a more moderate govenment will come about.
 
Superfly
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Tue May 04, 2004 12:47 pm

Ltbewr:
Death is a fact of life everyone will face someday. Hoping that an old man dies is redundant dont you think?
Bring back the Concorde
 
A388
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Wed May 05, 2004 3:25 am

I was just asking the question whether it's true that Cubana will order/lease A330's by themselves. On their website it says that they use the A330 which in fact are the ones they already lease from Air Luxor/Novair. There's no mention of Cubana actually ordering/leaseing A330's on their own. So my question was/is: will Cubana order/lease other (new) A330's so that the ones they are leasing now, can be returnt to Air Luxor/Novair?

Anyway, it will be nice to see A330's wearing Cubana's full livery. Les deseo mucho exito con el A330  Wink/being sarcastic

Saludos amigos A388  Wink/being sarcastic
 
Superfly
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RE: Cubana Orders A330; DC-10 Replacement

Fri May 07, 2004 10:38 am

I can't wait to see the IL-96 in Cubana livery.
Bring back the Concorde