lahaina
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AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Sun May 02, 2004 2:08 pm

Anyone out there with information as to when AQ will replace its fleet of 737-200 jets and with which plane? At one time AQ was looking at BAe 140 Avro jets. 737NG was ruled out because that aircraft would not be economical for interisland runs. That was before 9/11/01. After the down turn in interisland travel, everything was hush-hush. Anyone out there working for AQ that has info?
 
hawaiian717
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Sun May 02, 2004 2:23 pm

Actually, it was the Avro RJX that Aloha was looking at, and reported to be very close to ordering, but that program was cancelled.

David / MRY
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Sun May 02, 2004 3:31 pm

Zander has said that Aloha is looking for a repalcement down the road, but that there are no plans to replace the 732 fleet in the short-term. The 732 is actually more economical than any newer 737 model on the interisland routes because it was designed for such ultra-short haul, high-frequency ops. The newer 737s were designed for longer ranges and are at their most efficient on medium-long intracontinental routes. That's why Aloha didn't keep their 733s in the fleet...the wear and tear on the engines was just too much.


Aloha won't order the 717 unless it has to either...because HA flies the 717. And they won't order mainline turboprops either, residents and tourists alike vote with their pocket books and they chose jet travel within the hawaiian islands. That's part of the reason Mahalo failed, as well as the market not being large enough to support three major interisland carriers.


What about the E170? Well, afaik, that plane is in the same boat as the 737NG...designed for longer ranges on thin routes..not ultra-short-haul. Correct me if I am wrong. If I AM wrong, then I'd lay odds on the E170, but if I am correct, then I wouldn't.

So what will Aloha replace the 732 fleet with? Your guess is as good as mine. It won't be anytime soon though
 
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yyz717
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Sun May 02, 2004 4:34 pm

Used 733's or 735's are the most likely.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
je89_w
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Sun May 02, 2004 4:47 pm

If AQ were to get a totally different aircraft, that would also reuqire training which takes time and money. For HA's case, it was a little easier training the DC-9 pilots into the B712.

But with the training, I also think the E-170 would be a close call.

AQ also had a few B734s which didn't work either. I believe there are no shots of it in the database though.
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Sun May 02, 2004 4:50 pm

Used 733's or 735's are the most likely.

Not at all. See Reply #2.
 
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yyz717
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Sun May 02, 2004 4:53 pm

Many airlines use 733/735's on shorthauls. No reason why these types are ill-suited for AQ. If high cycles are a problem for the engine but the price is right, AQ might still go with them.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
je89_w
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Sun May 02, 2004 4:55 pm

Those B732s are tough tanks. Even though they are loud and "old", they seem to fit what is needed for AQ in terms of economical use.

One observation: upon takeoff, the B732 makes several backfire like sounds, is that normal?  Nuts
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Sun May 02, 2004 5:02 pm

No reason why these types are ill-suited for AQ.

It might seem that way, but Aloha did have 733s and 734s at one point and fully intended to replace their entire 732 fleet with these aircraft. And these were gotten for a good price afaik. They returned them because the aircraft were just too expensive to operate on interisland routes.

It doesn't matter how good of a price Aloha can get on these used 733s, because all of their 732s are also used. With a plentiful supply of 732s out there being retired from majors, it is cheaper for Aloha to continue to use those as they are more efficient on the interisland routes than the 733. It's the same situation with the 735. Aloha will continue to get used 732s over used 733/735 because for almost the same price they're getting a plane that is more efficient on the interisland routes.
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Sun May 02, 2004 5:04 pm

One observation: upon takeoff, the B732 makes several backfire like sounds, is that normal?


Compressor stalls. Quite common actually, I recall a Braniff (Brown) 727 was called the Brown Bomber because of it's compressor stalls. Big grin

I think, but am not sure, that this happens more on older aircraft and not so much on newer aircraft.
 
HAL
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Sun May 02, 2004 5:14 pm

Many airlines use 733/735's on shorthauls. No reason why these types are ill-suited for AQ. If high cycles are a problem for the engine but the price is right, AQ might still go with them.

Unfortunately for AQ (and HA) there is a huge difference between what Boeing and the rest of the airline industry considers 'short haul' and what the interisland 'short haul' really is.

Flight times interisland are often less than 20 minutes, where the typical UA/CO/NW/WN short trips are around an hour or more. As I've said before on this subject, the thing going against most of the current designs is weight. For each flight you have to haul those thousands of pounds of metal up into the air, only to bring it back down and do it over again. That costs in fuel and maintenance every time. The cheapest way to do this for the interisland market is use as lightweight a plane as you can get. Turboprops would be great, but as has been pointed out, the locals have been spoiled by jets and won't step foot on a turboprop. The 737's are sturdy and can handle the flight frequency, but the NG planes are just too heavy to be economical, and the engines just weren't made for that kind of frequent cycle operation. They break. That costs $.

Sure AQ could buy some used 733 or 735's at pretty low lease rates. Then what do they do when the planes end up spending half their time in the shop, costing them money instead of making it?

HA is getting away with using the 717's because they are lighter than the 737's and the engines were designed for that kind of frequent cycle operation. It's a close thing, but HA is making a profit interisland with the new planes.

The E170/190 may be a good plane for the market, but I'd wait until the plane has proven itself in other markets as being mechanically robust. The interisland ops is very, very, very hard on planes. You'd better make sure that what you're buying can withstand the rigors of the job.

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
je89_w
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Sun May 02, 2004 5:16 pm

Can't help but chuckle every time I hear it, even when the plane is in the middle of its takoff roll, one can hear it.

There is nothing one can do about it?
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Sun May 02, 2004 5:24 pm

I'm not entirely sure but I believe compressor stalls happen when the speed of air entering the engine intake becomes too low...this could be caused by the aircraft pitch situation or simply too low of an airspeed than the engine is happy with.


Maybe someone from tech/ops can clarify exactly what causes a compressor stall. Am I in the neighborhood here?
 
je89_w
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Sun May 02, 2004 5:26 pm

Good explanation HAL, well put.

It pretty much describes why AQ is still using the B732s, since they are meant for those shorthaul/high capacity routes. Looks like AQ will continue to keep those workhorse B732s through the distant future.
 
gigneil
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Mon May 03, 2004 3:30 am

I think the new EMB jets are just the ticket if AQ wishes to not get a 717, but a longer service life would be a prerequisite.

N
 
AA737-823
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Mon May 03, 2004 3:38 am

You know, if they'd give those 732s new cabins, they wouldn't be half bad. Maybe, something along the lines of the 737NG cabin. Bigger overheads, nice ceiling panels, etc... that'd go a long way in making those planes more comfortable/appealing.

R
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Mon May 03, 2004 3:49 am

I don't know, even the newest 732s are approaching the end of their useful life. If this were NW I would say "sure," but it might not make sense to retrofit the interiors for an aircraft that has, at most, a few years left.
 
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ua2162
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Mon May 03, 2004 3:56 am

You know, if they'd give those 732s new cabins, they wouldn't be half bad. Maybe, something along the lines of the 737NG cabin.

It amazes me how well AQ maintains the cabins of their 732s. They have replaced all their seats with leather seats and often paint the insides of the cabin; the carpet even looks new. I bet a majority of the passengers that board these planes don't even realize many of them have been in service for almost 20 years. It would really be a waste of money to give their entire fleet new cabins when the old ones don't look so bad. Just a thought...
 
starrion
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Mon May 03, 2004 3:59 am

What makes you think that? The thing that detirmines useful life is cycles and hours -not- how many years it's been since it was produced.

I bet AQ could make a good deal with Delta to get some 732's with lots of life left so Delta could start taking some of the 738's they have on deferred order....
Knowledge Replaces Fear
 
JasperEMA
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Mon May 03, 2004 4:09 am

High cycles = fatigue , did I remember right that the top peeled off a b737-200 in the land of surfboards?
 
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yyz717
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Mon May 03, 2004 4:13 am

There will come a point when their 732 fleet will become more & more mx intensive and the pool of used 732's elsewhere will dry up. At that time (in 5 years? 8 years?), AQ will have to consider another type. What is it about the 733/735 CFM engine that makes it unsuitable for extreme shorthauls but the JT8D and RR/BMW are suitable?

Is it true that AQ has ruled out the 717 simply because HA has the 717? Isn't this a bit shortsighted?



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Mon May 03, 2004 4:20 am

(in 5 years? 8 years?),


That's actually the time period that Zander is looking at. In the short term, the 732 will remain, but within a few years, Aloha will probably decide on a replacement.


The 733/735 engine was designed to operate most efficiently on routes over 1 hour in length. The plane was never intended to fly 30, 40, 50 minute segments repeatedly all day long. Basically you're forcing an aircraft to do a job it was never designed to do. As HAL pointed out, short-haul on the mainland is quite different than short-haul in Hawaii. Consider the route HNL-MKK that HA and WP fly. Do you realize that route is so short that aircraft are vectored for approach almost immediately after takeoff from HNL? Quite literally it's "you're up, and you're down", and HA uses a 717 on this route. Because it can handle it. The 733 would never handle such a routing day after day, year after year, without serious maintenance headaches.
 
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aloha73g
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Mon May 03, 2004 4:53 am

As far as our shorthaul interisland routes you HAVE to remember that if the cities/towns were not on islands no airline would fly these routes, let alone with mainline jets. The 737-200s work great and for a 20-40 minute flight I find them to be very comfortable, and quite well maintained. They are proven and reliable and theres no reason to dump them as long as they are. When Aloha can no longer find old 732s with low cycles & hours then they will begin to seriously look for a replacement.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Mon May 03, 2004 5:06 am

aloha! I was beginning to wonder if you were still around! Big grin
 
LHcapt2007
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Mon May 03, 2004 5:52 am

And their cruise altitude on these interisland hops is normally what? A blast off to a flight level(very doubtful) or scream under FL180? I can only imagine how much fuel it would cost to reach a flight level for just a few minutes before you begin the descent! And vectoring for approaches upon takeoff infers these flights can't be much higher than the local MSAs or MEAs, and all this would seem to further compliment the 732 where the price is right anyway and fuel not as much of a factor on such short hauls per number of pax/cargo and overall comfort... So all the above guesses are legit for the jet spoiled passengers several years down the road.
So does anyone know the companys' normal cruising altitude?
Cheers,
LHcapt2007
TNCM
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Mon May 03, 2004 6:15 am

I think cruise altitudes interisland are anywhere from 14,000 feet up through 29,000 feet, depending on length. HNL-KOA would be up in the 20K feet area, while HNL-MKK would be in the 10K feet area.
 
lahaina
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Mon May 03, 2004 6:23 am

Please pardon my ignorance, but why can't Boeing retrofit the 737NG planes with JT8D or RR/BMW engines? Better yet, why won't they manufacture 737-200 advanced for AQ? That is better than losing them as a customer to someone else.
 
AngelAirways
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Mon May 03, 2004 6:38 am

just to note a few things that nobody has realised.

1. any aircraft on these routes would suffer from a heavy maintenance burden due to the high cycles. these affect
- fatigue life of the airframe (mostly fuselage skin)
- frequent landing gear replacements
- flap systems
- and of course, engines

so engines are the most critical factor on such flights.

the 732s pratt n whitney JT8Ds are a rather outdated design. they have a low bypass ratio (small diameter fan) and burn loads more fuel than contemporary engines would to produce the thrust they do. however, the small fans have the advantage of quick power ups and less sensitivity to thrust variations. the modern, bigger engines perform ideally in steady-state cruise, but when it comes to frequent changes in rotational speed, the fatigue really shows its teeth.

the short hops operated by aloha, in an ideal world, should not be operated by jets but by turboprops. the Q400/ATR72 are ideal for the job. however, as someone said, passengers have this perception and would pay more bucks for jets. this illogical stupidity is beyond me. on such short sectors, speed is hardly an issue because the 732s never really reach cruising speed, and the Q400 cabin is quieter than the rear end of a 732!

so yes.. aloha can push to run their aircraft to the limits but in a few years time they will simply be 'out-cycled'.

what will they pick? your guess is as good as mine.
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Mon May 03, 2004 6:43 am

Quite common actually, I recall a Braniff (Brown) 727 was called the Brown Bomber because of it's compressor stalls.

I think, but am not sure, that this happens more on older aircraft and not so much on newer aircraft.


Engines with longer intakes, especially tail-mounted ones, are more susceptible to compressor stalls (especially the JT8D on the 727 in the #2 position) due to the complexity of the airflow into the engine intake.

A compressor stall is just that...an aerodynamic stall in the engine. Since turbine blades are basically tiny airfoils, they will stall just the same as the main aircraft wing. Critical angle of attack is exceeded on one of the compressor vanes and this causes a fast chain reaction on all the other vanes opposite the direction of rotation. It's somewhat like a "belch" or "backfire"....all that is needed is to reduce power. In most circumstances, it's a non-event.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Mon May 03, 2004 6:53 am

Please pardon my ignorance, but why can't Boeing retrofit the 737NG planes with JT8D or RR/BMW engines? Better yet, why won't they manufacture 737-200 advanced for AQ? That is better than losing them as a customer to someone else.

Several reasons.

1) It usually makes for bad business sense to regress so severely in the design of something (a la bringing back the 732 design)
2) The 737NG is such a radical departure from the 732 it wouldn't be possible or economically feasible to build the 732 design on the Renton production lines anymore (let alone building the components in their respective places)
3) Recertifying a new aircraft with old engines is time-consuming and rather pointless, especially for one customer with a very few aircraft.

It won't hurt Boeing so badly if AQ had to go with a different supplier, anyway.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Mon May 03, 2004 7:01 am

Boeing wouldn't be affected at all. Aloha doesn't purchase their 732s through Boeing, afaik. I could be wrong but I don't think Aloha goes through Boeing Capital Corp. Or do they?

Thanks for the further explanation on why compressor stalls occur. The older jet engines tended to have the elongated design, so that would explain why compressor stalls occur more frequently on older aircraft.

 
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HA_DC9
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Mon May 03, 2004 7:39 am

Another thing to consider for an AQ 732 replacement that hasn't been mentioned in this thread, but on previous threads of the same topic is cargo capabilities. AQ has several 732QCs that they use for night time interisland cargo operations. The interisland cargo operations is a big moneymaker for AQ right now since HA doesn't use QC aircraft for interisland cargo. This is where AQ might not go for an RJ aircraft or for a turboprop although the ATR 42/72 has a forward cargo compartment. I think part of the reason why AQ was considering the RJX from Avro mentioned by Hawaiian717 above was that the aircraft could have QC capabilities. The QC aircraft was mentioned when AQ/HA agreed to merge the other year. Greg Brenneman wanted to dump the AQ 732s in favor of the HA 717s for interisland passenger service, but keep the AQ 732QC strictly for cargo operations.
 
FullThrottle
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Mon May 03, 2004 8:30 am

CRJ 900 or 700? Could that work?
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Mon May 03, 2004 10:11 am

CRJ-700/-900, absolutley not!

Way to small and would have weight/balance issues with tourists and their boatload of luggage.

A couple of misconceptions about AQ's 732's.
-Most of them are not that old, mostly mid-80's, AQ got them second hand from a variety of sources. These are not the same 732's that were flying for them back in the late 80's. AQ gets newer second hand 732's to replace their higher cycle airframes.
-The interiors on the QC's look pretty run-down, whereas the standard 732's are in pretty good shape.
-Understand the fatigue from operating extremly-high cycle, short hops, in the warm tropics, high sun, and plus the salt-air from the oceans.

Time will tell.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Mon May 03, 2004 10:24 am

Way to small and would have weight/balance issues with tourists and their boatload of luggage.

The CRJ-700 isn't that small, given the fact that its MTOW weight is only 4,000lbs lower and they are equally matched for passenger capacity. The E170s extra range is irrelevant for these types of ops. Is there any reason it shouldnt be considered?
 
SuperDash
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Mon May 03, 2004 10:48 am

The answer really is simple. I am not sure anyone at Aloha or Hawaiian has the guts to do it. But if they do, they have the chance to knock the other one out of business. 78 seat config Dash 8-Q400 would be the ideal machine. First, on these sectors it is as fast as a 717/737 (less than :05 difference). Second, the cost of the machine both ownership and operating cost can not be matched by any plane-period. Which means, third, Aloha could offer Southwest type prices (even lower than today) between the islands and clean up. Fourth, Hawaiian, could not afford to match those prices because their machines cost too much to operate. Bottom line is this...Anyone that says tourists will or islanders will not get on a turboprop are just wrong. Schedule and price are what determine a purchase, not equipment. Most people don't even have a clue what they are flying on. Remember, Horizon flies Q400s direct up against the kingpin of low fare carriers and does very very well against them. Obviously there is not a jet preference in the Northwest, there would not be one on the islands. The price has to be right. Therefore, the answer should be simple. Q400's baby! And, oh by the way, I would be more than happy to jump on one on interisland.
 
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aloha73g
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Mon May 03, 2004 11:05 am

As far as fares go....right now Aloha's are MUCH lower than Hawaiian's. Aloha's online-interisland coach fares are $59, $69, $79 or $89, First=$99 (all taxes/fees included). Hawaiian's are $74, $104 and $126, First=$142 (taxes/fees NOT included). Its quite a difference. If Aloha could offer even lower fares with a Q400 they would have a huge advantage. Its kind of interesting that Aloha's unrestricted fare is over $37 less than Hawaiian's.

Its is fair to point out that Aloha's fares are for AlohaPass members only, but anyone can easily join online and get the fares. Aloha's non-AlohaPass fares are a bit higher, but still less than Hawaiian's.

Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
ha763
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Mon May 03, 2004 11:21 am

Again and again, the interisland market has voted with its money that they want jet aircraft, not turboprops. And again, the Q400 does not have the cargo capacity for AQ's or HA's interisland ops. Cargo isn't only moved on the QCs. It is moved all day on every single interisland flight.
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Mon May 03, 2004 11:43 am

Buying Q400s might seem like a good idea but the locals and tourists prefer jet aircraft, and if they have a choice between paying 74 dollars on Hawaiian and getting a jet, or paying 60 dollars on Aloha and getting a prop, they'll choose Hawaiian.


Secondly, this "knock the other out of the business" stuff. It is not in Hawaii's best interest for Aloha to knock Hawaiian out of the business, nor for Hawaiian knock Aloha out. There are only two major interisland carriers in Hawaii, that's all the market can support. But the two carriers competing with each other help keep prices low. Remember that for many residents of Hawaii, flying between islands is their commute to/from work. You allow those interisland prices to skyrocket and you suddenly have a crisis in Hawaii's aviation scene. This is part of the reason the Hawaiian/Aloha merger didn't go through. Hawaii itself didn't want the merger to happen. And it came very very close to happening. Had it succeeded, another startup airline would have, and should have, begun to compete with the merged carrier to keep prices under control. Either that or a state control on airfare..because of the situation that Hawaii's economy really depends on that frequent air service. Hawaiian and Aloha are basically the public transport of the islands.

Aloha is well advised to stay with jets despite the possible efficiency gains if they switched to turboprops. Their business depends on staying with jets.

What I WANT to know is if the E170 is actually designed for ultra-short hops, high frequency, daily. If it can handle it...then maybe. But if it's in the same boat as the 733...forget it. My opinion is that Aloha, if faced with no other choice, will pick the 717 as the replacement aircraft...and that's only if they deem RJs unacceptable (and for the QC ops, they don't work), and the E170/BRJX also are found unsuitable. Aloha will avoid the 717 if they can, just because Ha flies them.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Mon May 03, 2004 3:00 pm

My guess is that Embraer might be just willing to build a special version of the Embraer 170/190 specifically for Hawaiian inter-island service. Especially if AQ is willing to buy at least 25 airframes. I'm sure that Embraer has designed the 190 with the GRU-GIG shuttle service in mind, so it wouldn't take much to modify the 190 to the type of flying AQ does.

By the way, it may not be such a bad idea for AQ to buy the Bombardier Dash 8-Q400, especially if Bombardier can strengthen the airframe for high-frequency short flight operations.
 
HAL
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Mon May 03, 2004 3:14 pm

My guess is that Embraer might be just willing to build a special version of the Embraer 170/190 specifically for Hawaiian inter-island service. Especially if AQ is willing to buy at least 25 airframes.

There's no way AQ would want 25 planes for interisland service. There really isn't room for expansion, as AQ and HA divide the market pretty well, and it's not likely to grow much over the years.

Currently (as far as I can tell) AQ has 12 straight 200's, and 3 combi models. Any new order for aircraft would probably be about that size - 15 or so planes at most.

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Mon May 03, 2004 3:34 pm

Yes, correction, it'd be the EMB-190 that AQ would want, if it ordered Embraer, that's closer to the pax capacity of the 732 than the E-170. Though maybe they'd order the 170 to supplement the fleet, say for thinner routes..maybe re-open ITO-KOA with an E170.


It really all comes down to whether these planes were actually designed for routes as short and high frequency as Aloha's schedule demands. The E170 might, but the E190 might not. And that presents a problem because the 190 has the pax load that would be ideal to replace the 732. Now if they went all-E170, they could make up for it with higher frequencies...but consider that on interisland schedules, we already have some routes with departures every 30 minutes...just how much more frequent are we gonna get?

So, the 717 is the best fit. It really is. The question is...is Aloha willing to suck it up and use the same plane as HA in 5-10 years time? Probably not, because within that timeframe, a new regional airliner will likely be on the market and maybe be a better solution for AQ...and...the 717 line may likely be closed by that time as well. Unless some serious orders start rolling in. The only thing I can think of is: BRJX, and that's a big variable, we don't even know what kind of route this thing is going to be designed for.

Well, can't say it isn't interesting! In the meantime, enjoy these images from FS98 of an Aloha 717:





Not a copyright violation, I painted that aircraft myself.
 
User avatar
Aloha717200
Posts: 3739
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2003 4:50 am

RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Mon May 03, 2004 3:44 pm

Sorry about that, here's a repost:


Yes, correction, it'd be the EMB-190 that AQ would want, if it ordered Embraer, that's closer to the pax capacity of the 732 than the E-170. Though maybe they'd order the 170 to supplement the fleet, say for thinner routes..maybe re-open ITO-KOA with an E170.


It really all comes down to whether these planes were actually designed for routes as short and high frequency as Aloha's schedule demands. The E170 might, but the E190 might not. And that presents a problem because the 190 has the pax load that would be ideal to replace the 732. Now if they went all-E170, they could make up for it with higher frequencies...but consider that on interisland schedules, we already have some routes with departures every 30 minutes...just how much more frequent are we gonna get?

So, the 717 is the best fit. It really is. The question is...is Aloha willing to suck it up and use the same plane as HA in 5-10 years time? Probably not, because within that timeframe, a new regional airliner will likely be on the market and maybe be a better solution for AQ...and...the 717 line may likely be closed by that time as well. Unless some serious orders start rolling in. The only thing I can think of is: BRJX, and that's a big variable, we don't even know what kind of route this thing is going to be designed for.

Well, can't say it isn't interesting! In the meantime, enjoy these images from FS98 of an Aloha 717:





Not a copyright violation, I painted that aircraft myself.
 
Bluewave 707
Posts: 2793
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 8:21 am

RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Mon May 03, 2004 5:36 pm

This is definitely a hot topic among airline observers in Hawaii ...

AQ is not revealing any of their options on any type of solutions. There are quite a few late-model -200s around, should AQ need to make any replacements. Not to mention a gob sitting in the deserts of AZ and CA. AQ will soon lose its exemption to Stage III noise regs.

I suppose the correct guess would be ... we'll just have to wait until AQ makes a formal announcement to what their final decision will be.


What AQ would lose out by switching to the ERJ, or CRJ is the QC capability. It would force them to give up the lucrative cargo market, especially since HA has no QC version of the 712. Nor has Boeing made that offer. HA has not flown cargo since they retired their DC-9-15RCs.

Props, even the Dash8-Q400 is not an option.

HA and AQ will not try to elimiante the other because it would constitute a monopoly of the inter-island market. The state nor the feds will allow this to happen. There also is not a 3rd major i-i carrier to really force the issue. Which is why the state is allowing both HA and AQ to co-ordinate their i-i schedules. Not quite a merger, but now a competitor-alliance relationship.

Mid-Pacific (bad management & ownership), Discovery (foreign ownership issues), and Mahalo (props) all failed.
"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
 
ha763
Posts: 3168
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 5:36 pm

RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Wed May 05, 2004 8:37 am

This picture is of a 737-700, but is also typical of the interisland cargo market.


MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Erik Nugal



There is no way any RJ or the Q400 could carry all that cargo plus pax bags.

HA still flies cargo, just not a cargo aircraft.
 
je89_w
Crew
Posts: 2070
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 1:29 pm

RE: AQ Interisland 737-200 Replacements

Wed May 05, 2004 1:32 pm

Nice screenshots AQ717200, and good job with the drawing!

AQ and HA both carry cargo in the lower deck of the aircraft, and AQ's B732QC carry full loads. Fedex Feeders, Alpine Air etc, carry cargo to smaller towns.

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