DoorsToManual
Topic Author
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Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Mon May 03, 2004 9:03 pm

Hello

I found this article in The Times, a UK broadsheet.

It describes the growing competition for low-cost travellers in Germany, and an announcement from Germanwings that they will compete with easyJet "route for route" until they are forced to eventually quit the German market. 4U is not worried about Berlin, as it does not consider the city to be viable for the kind of service it offers.

I really like 4U's service but it has to be said that their fares are not always the most competitive in relation to other low-cost airlines. One also has to consider who is 'pulling the strings' for 4U, behind the scenes.  Big grin Still, from a passenger perspective, I cannot fault them.

Anyway, here is the brief article:

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,9077-1088576,00.html

regards
 
mrniji
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Mon May 03, 2004 9:07 pm

This is really sad... these statements are scaring... people forget that at last people work for airlines and earn their life... this increased competition (other ones are 'enemies') and the ambition to "kick off" someone will result in job losses... and always the commom man will suffer

I think airlines should rather cooperate - like they do with the codeshare practice - than have wars (better for Pax, airlines and environment). There is something not right with our global economy...  Sad

[Edited 2004-05-03 14:15:21]
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
QIguy24
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Mon May 03, 2004 9:11 pm

I agree with you Mrniji,

But like a very wise man named Pe@rson once told me. May the strongest win. I know it's hard for people to loose their jobs. But how many do you think Easyjet has employed in Germany?
 
donder10
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Mon May 03, 2004 9:13 pm

think airlines should rather cooperate - like they do with the codeshare practice - than have wars. There is something not right with our global economy...

I think we'll take the European model over the Indian aviation model,thanks Smile
 
gkirk
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Mon May 03, 2004 9:14 pm

I can see easyJet giving them an absolute hammering  Wink/being sarcastic
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
mrniji
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Mon May 03, 2004 9:14 pm

But how many do you think Easyjet has employed in Germany

I wouldn't think too many, since their presence is still small. But job losses could go beyond Germany, since Germanwings says they will compete on every ef EasyJet's Route to Britain. If they do well, there will be job losses in Britain (and beyond), too

Welcome to the new economy...
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
mrniji
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Mon May 03, 2004 9:17 pm

I think we'll take the European model over the Indian aviation model,thanks

At least in India, you have something like a secure job and don't have to permanently be afraid to be ousted...

What's wrong with the Indian modell: good load factors, cheap fares, many jobs and revenues are increasing (AI is making wins, IC is cutting losses, the privates are improving...). Regulation is a good alternative to blind neoliberalism

 Nuts
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
DoorsToManual
Topic Author
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Mon May 03, 2004 9:25 pm

N.B. easyJet are recruiting German Cabin Crew and ground staff for their SXF and DTM bases.

regards
 
VSGirl
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Mon May 03, 2004 9:26 pm

I would put all my money on EasyJet. Good bye Germanwings.

Kimberly.
 
Leskova
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Mon May 03, 2004 9:39 pm

It's really up to the question of how much money Lufthansa/Eurowings want to sink in their fight against EasyJet - I don't really see Germanwings disappearing, but I wouldn't be surprised to see them change that tactic at a point in the future, explaining it with the "reallocation of planes to more profitable routes"...

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
eham
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Mon May 03, 2004 9:41 pm

I personally think easyJet will kick-out Germanwings!

 
TriStar500
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Mon May 03, 2004 9:57 pm

Anyway, it is good news for us, the customers.

For my part, I am glad that we have relatively free competition in the airline market and not some kind of regulation, which prohibits the free flow of prices and the matching of demand and supply.
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
donder10
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Mon May 03, 2004 10:06 pm

At least in India, you have something like a secure job and don't have to permanently be afraid to be ousted...

What's wrong with the Indian modell: good load factors, cheap fares, many jobs and revenues are increasing (AI is making wins, IC is cutting losses, the privates are improving...). Regulation is a good alternative to blind neoliberalism


Regulation is a good alternative to blind neoliberalism.

And you have evidence for that?Everywhere that aviation has been liberalised,fares have come down and capacity greatly increased.
 
godbless
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Mon May 03, 2004 10:26 pm

As we say here in Germany: "You never eat your meal as hot as it has been cooked."
Of course Germanwings will say what they did, it would be a sign of weakness if they didn't...
But if you look at how things are in reality than I look at the statement with a grin. The last few flights I checked with Germanwings were always far more expensive than those with competing airlines. And with flights going to MAD I would even fly 80EUR cheaper with Lufthansa (4U from CGN, LH from DUS).
Well maybe 4U wants to earn as much as possible now so that they have enough cash to burn once U2 enters the market at CGN and DTM.
And at this point I see no jobs being lost...

Max
 
ba319-131
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Mon May 03, 2004 10:51 pm

If it were to be a straight fight between the 2,then Easyjet would win,but it depends how much money LH is willing to sink into 4U to fight EZY.

This could be very interesting.
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PW100
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Tue May 04, 2004 1:15 am

What's wrong with the Indian modell: good load factors, cheap fares, many jobs and revenues are increasing (AI is making wins, IC is cutting losses, the privates are improving...). Regulation is a good alternative to blind neoliberalism

Now, if they could get things going in the aircraft purchase department . . .

I think easyJet is very wise in taking on Berlin. They are putting themselves in prime position to take full advantage of the new Brandenburg airport [BBI, if ever constructed Nuts]. How is Berlin aviation going to look like in 10 - 20 years? How's Berlin going to look like in twenty years, will it be the heart of [the new] Europe . . . easyJet will be ready for it!

PW100
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snnams
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Tue May 04, 2004 1:27 am

I would very much take the remark with a pinch of salt..

Germanwings are a great airline.. flew from DUB to CGN with them recently. Perhaps the best low cost i've flown with.

Having said that, Lufthansa (a.k.a Germanwings) have not done such a good job of getting rid of Ryanair, and im sure such a heavily populated area as the ruhr gebeit has quite enough people to support the both Easyjet and Germanwings. In any case, they each fly from airports at either end of this area.

And I very much agree with PW100: great move from Easyjet with basing in Berlin!
 
pelican
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Tue May 04, 2004 2:06 am

There is another German proverb. If two argue, the third will be pleased...
The competition between LCCs will be fierce, maybe it is already fierce.
4U have already AB in Berlin as competitor, thus there is no need for Germanwings to get fierce competition in Berlin.

They are putting themselves in prime position to take full advantage of the new Brandenburg airport
But than they have to last until the last judgment. At least a looong, long time.

pelican
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Tue May 04, 2004 2:52 am

There will always be a loser when it comes to competition. Welcome to free markets... As an aviaiton friend and enthusiast, I don't want to see any loser at all, but as a German I would honestly prefer Germanwings to survive, because the layoffs EasyJet would do in UK don't bother us directly.
This is normal, every nation wants to get it's share of the cake, but some will go empty.
But like I said, I don't want to see any airline lose this "game".
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
mrniji
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Tue May 04, 2004 2:56 am

And you have evidence for that?Everywhere that aviation has been liberalised,fares have come down and capacity greatly increased.

Yes, often capacity has been added where demand did not increase... no wonder so many airlines make losses ... and people have lost their jobs. Nice, Donder10

For my part, I am glad that we have relatively free competition in the airline market and not some kind of regulation, which prohibits the free flow of prices and the matching of demand and supply.

 Big grin the free flow of market prices, the market clearing forces and so on... believe it or not...

Just to clarify my position: I am not pro regulation and contra liberalization, but prefer a good mix rather falling from one extreme to the other

 Smokin cool
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
donder10
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Tue May 04, 2004 5:49 am

Yes, often capacity has been added where demand did not increase... no wonder so many airlines make losses ... and people have lost their jobs. Nice, Donder10


Yes, often capacity has been added where demand did not increase... no wonder so many airlines make losses ...
Give some private sector European examples then.


... and people have lost their jobs. Nice, Donder10

Since liberalisation in Europe we have seen the growth of easyJet and Ryanair amongst others creating many thousands of jobs in the sector while lowering fares greatly.I think our model is pretty good at creating value all round especially with its wider implications for the economy.


Just to clarify my position: I am not pro regulation and contra liberalization, but prefer a good mix rather falling from one extreme to the other

Such as?
 
mrniji
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Tue May 04, 2004 5:55 am

Give some private sector European examples then

AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA-TXL... planes hardly full (only peak times), but new competitors, generally on many intra-German routes

Since liberalisation in Europe we have seen the growth of easyJet and Ryanair amongst others creating many thousands of jobs in the sector while lowering fares greatly.I think our model is pretty good at creating value all round especially with its wider implications for the economy.

And "traditional carriers" like LH, BA "rationalize" (nice word, he??)  Smokin cool
Then, labor standards drop with these carriers since they are deemed to make as much profit as possible... yeah, social aspects and humans are out, because labor is "only an input"


Position: you can have a liberal civil aviation framework, but impose some standards, such as labor (minimum wage), environment (tax on polluting a/c), to remain brief...
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
EZYcrew
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Tue May 04, 2004 6:02 am

Germanwings statement that Berlin can never be a viable market for the LCC's is so wrong.... any medium-to-big cities have a potential... look at Liverpool in the UK... totally ignored by all airlines until EZY set up a hub and made it one of its most profitable base... and there are so many examples, like GVA (that SR almost totally abandonned in the early 90's), NCL, EMA, etc....
 
snnams
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Tue May 04, 2004 6:10 am

Ezycrew,

Agree with you on that. Low fares can stimulate demand practically anywhere...

It sounds like Lufthansa/Germanwings are in a similar state of denial to that AerLingus and British Airways were in, in the days when Ryanair first got going.

To even try to suggest that a city of well over three million people has no potential as a low cost base is ludicrous.
 
RB211LTN
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Tue May 04, 2004 6:15 am

I once worked for eJ and pity any poor Germans who go to work for them. Workers rights are non-existent and respect from the management has never featured in their business plan.

Eurowings e-mail me every week boasting of their low fares, but everyone here seems to think they are expensive. As a comparison I booked LHR-BCN-LHR last year on BA for £89 return. For flights on the same day at the same time LTN-BCN-LTN eJ wanted £120. No seat allocation, no drink, no food. No contest!

I hope Eurowings kick their orange bum all the way back to LTN.
The customer is always right.....unless he is a passenger!
 
donder10
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Tue May 04, 2004 6:15 am

Position: you can have a liberal civil aviation framework, but impose some standards, such as labor (minimum wage), environment (tax on polluting a/c), to remain brief...

None of which have much of an impact on competiton in the aviation industry as it applies to all airlines generally.

And "traditional carriers" like LH, BA "rationalize" (nice word, he??)
And the problem of this is what?The entry of LCCs has created wealth,not diverted it.



AB) (AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA-TXL... planes hardly full (only peak times), but new competitors, generally on many intra-German routes

And there are considerably worse examples from airlines that are run by the public sector.A conspicious one is Air Tonga whose loses now account for around 1/3 of the government's spending!
 
mrniji
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Tue May 04, 2004 7:42 am

And the problem of this is what?The entry of LCCs has created wealth,not diverted it.

And there are considerably worse examples from airlines that are run by the public sector.A conspicious one is Air Tonga whose loses now account for around 1/3 of the government's spending!

Answer (citation of RB211LTN, who worked for a EasyJet):

I once worked for eJ and pity any poor Germans who go to work for them. Workers rights are non-existent and respect from the management has never featured in their business plan.

Nice conclusion:

- You say: They create wealth - I say: They might create jobs, but a job is just not a job... there have to be some standards. I wouldn't like to work for someone who cares a s--- about their workers and exploits them
- Tonga is a wonderful example for the global civil aviation, very representative. I declare defeat  Big grin
- believing in the good free market forces who optimally allocate everything in a wonderful manner is a concept which has always failed (market failure)... things are more complex than you think, says Mr. Common Sense
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
pelican
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Tue May 04, 2004 8:39 am

Mrniji - did you ever heard about "social market economy", here in Europe (at least at the most parts of what's called Western Europe) we have some standards assured by law...

I don't think that the decision of Germanwings to ignore Berlin was a bad idea. HLX and AB are already here. LH has also some connections from TXL.

But than I' don't understand how can somebody consider Berlin as a small market? The Berlin area is the second biggest metropolitan area in Germany and I guess the number two in Central Europe. Okay it isn't a region of wealth but we are talking about LCCs and not about some highbred executive airlines...

pelican
 
mrniji
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Tue May 04, 2004 8:43 am

Mrniji - did you ever heard about "social market economy", here in Europe (at least at the most parts of what's called Western Europe) we have some standards assured by law...

Of course, I have lived 20 yrs in Germany and also worked under the social market economy, and unfortunately witnessed that the social market economy is about to decline to a free market economy...  Sad Even the social market economy there many examples where standards are undesirable

Good that you say at least in most parts of Western Europe... here in Great Britain, things are a little different... (sorry for my observations). I wish that the standards will globally be augmented, even when the companies have to pay it with their revenue

[Edited 2004-05-04 01:48:34]
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
pelican
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Tue May 04, 2004 8:52 am

Here in Germany I can't see any decline - despite we have a social market economy we have big problems with unemployment! I haven't any problems with free competition. I think the right Idea is to combine free competition an a welfare system like Scandinavians do...

good night -pelican

 
godbless
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Tue May 04, 2004 5:20 pm

But than I' don't understand how can somebody consider Berlin as a small market? The Berlin area is the second biggest metropolitan area in Germany and I guess the number two in Central Europe. Okay it isn't a region of wealth but we are talking about LCCs and not about some highbred executive airlines...

As you said it yourself, it is not an area of wealth. And even for LCC it's not about selling tickets for 20EUR return or so but as for any airline to earn as much as possible (rising demand = rising price).
Berlin is a big city in the middle of an industrial desert and it will probably stay like that for many years to come. Best example that the city is not as greatest [yet] in the aviation market is that the "high price" market is very limited (see TXL-IAD and other flights to the US, SQ to SIN,...) and even LCC need those. And nobody really knows what will happen in Berlin airportwise. THF will be closed, TXL supposed to follow 2007 or 2008 but there is no BBI yet... And once it will be there I doubt it will be as "cheap" as SXF is today, so the Berlin market will be totally different again after BBI opens.

Why should 4U invest there now? Lots of blood would flow where everything could be totally different in just a few years...

Max
 
zak
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Tue May 04, 2004 5:36 pm

"I don't think that the decision of Germanwings to ignore Berlin was a bad idea. HLX and AB are already here. LH has also some connections from TXL."

you can get a 90E return flight to berlin with LH, so why bother making competition to its parent airline if you cant beat their price by a significant margin anyway?

also alot of people here do not realize that easyjet has not arrived in CGN yet. and if they will i hope there will be a price war, so people get to enjoy low fares. now that HLX has dropped their CGN MAD sector it has become ridiculously expensive and i actually have to book LH via dus for over 150E return, so please give me a price war  Big grin
10=2
 
pelican
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Tue May 04, 2004 5:47 pm

industrial dessert
okay maybe (but with a little bit of aviation industry like Rolls Royce and MTU  Wink/being sarcastic - so what?

The oasis called Berlin has a population of more than 4 millions that means if you consider Berlin as not viable you can't invest in the most parts of Europe...

I think Berlin shows that Germanwings is not serious about "kick out" Easyjet.
They dread the competition of Easyjet and Air Berlin-Gexx.

TXL supposed to follow 2007 or 2008 but there is no BBI yet
nobody will close TXL until BBI is under construction (that could be next year or 2xxx German bureaucracy take some time)- TXL has a high degree of utilization, hence nobody will close TXL without an alternative at hand.

pelican
 
Zweed
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Tue May 04, 2004 6:23 pm

Pretty scary to se people, in they year of 2004 considering competition a bad thing since it "makes people unemployed"

Perhaps you lot should consider a move to North Korea. They implement the same economic policies as some people here seem to prefer
 
pelican
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Tue May 04, 2004 6:38 pm

ZAK

you can get a 90E return flight to berlin with LH, so why bother making competition to its parent airline if you cant beat their price by a significant margin anyway? - exactly what I had in mind with my statement!

Zweed
Pretty scary to se people, in they year of 2004 considering competition a bad thing since it "makes people unemployed" - absolutely right! But why a lot? Were there more than on guy???

Cuba would be nicer than North Korea  Wink/being sarcastic


 
mrniji
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Tue May 04, 2004 7:54 pm

The oasis called Berlin has a population of more than 4 millions that means if you consider Berlin as not viable you can't invest in the most parts of Europe...

OK, Berlin has 4 Mio population, so it has some potential. But everyone who has lived in Berlin knows:

- it is in the absolute middle of nowhere (the infrastructure around is really bad)
- You criticize people who doubt Berlin's potential to invest... well, everyone knows how unpopular Berlin is to do so (highest unemployment in Germany, city almost bankrupt)

There needs to be some work done before Berlin is an attractive place to do large investment
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
planemaker
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Tue May 04, 2004 9:18 pm

I imagine that Berliners, like most people, like to travel... and if they are offered good air fares why wouldn't they travel? Amongst the 4-million population surely there is a market for an LCC... that's more than some of the new EU members. And speaking of new EU members, Berlin is the closest major city to the capitals of several of the new members. I believe that Berlin has very good potential to becoming an eastern European hub.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
pelican
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Tue May 04, 2004 9:26 pm

I know about the problems of Berlin, because I live in the region (profile)

it is in the absolute middle of nowhere (the infrastructure around is really bad) - I don't think so -your info is a little bit outdated- Berlin has a very good "Autobahn" connection and good public transport system - definitely better than the public transport of London!

BTW what kind of infrastructure beside an easy accessible airport does an LCC need? SXM has it's own train station and the Autobahn is around the corner...

highest unemployment who says that? Okay the unemployment rate is high, but than around Berlin we have the most prosper area in east Germany...

city almost bankrupt sad but true, though why should this matter to a LCC?

The biggest problem is the bad reputation, the marketing of Berlin isn't really good.

pelican
 
mrniji
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Wed May 05, 2004 6:40 pm

Dear Pelican

I know about the problems of Berlin, because I live in the region (profile)

This is always the best way to start a discussion: "I know everything why don't you just shut up??". Don't you think you are too self-conscious? Why do you discuss here then when you know everything? If other people know aswell since they live "in the region", Berlin would not be an economic desert. Only FYI, I lived 4 years in Berlin, until last September and graduated at FU Berlin...  Nuts


Berlin has a very good "Autobahn" connection and good public transport system

First: OK, Berlin has a good autobahn, construction has limited fine. No problem, it only takes 4 1/2 to AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA (the economic capital) and 2 1/2 to Hamburg, 5 1/2 hrs to Munich... good. But why not invest directlt there (since there is MUCH more skilled labor available in these regions). Btw, as you might know: the ICE Sprinter 3 1/2 hrs to AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA, which I took regularly, is the best alternative

definitely better than the public transport of London!

What do you want to say with that?? Why do you all of a sudden start with a comparison with london? The typical arrogant but we are still better than you?? I love this special mentality...  Smile . I love Berlin public transport and know it is fantastic. The nightbuses and even the tube now brought me safe home "after one or the other night out although being "intoxinated by one or the other drink"  Smile But how long have you lived in london to judge the public transport here (who has to serve a population more than 7 Million)?? Maybe you just did not understand it

Don't forget, I took reference to your statements and not to your question whether Berlin is an attractive LCC market. Even I believe that it is a good market for LCC

Peace, brother  Smokin cool

Btw, only to preventively combat your prejudices: I had the time of my life in Berlin, it is fantastic... at the same time I see it is having major problems and suspect that the BB-Airport project is absolutely deemed to failed (AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA and MUC are more attractive, and Germany does not need a third big airport - but policy makers always know the best)
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
pelican
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Fri May 07, 2004 6:11 am

@Mrniji
I don't want to deny the facts you have stated in reply 38!
I have only tried to prove your statement "the infrastructure around is really bad" false. (reply 35)

This is always the best way to start a discussion: "I know everything why don't you just shut up??". that's what I had in mind when you stated But everyone who has lived in Berlin knows - you started this kind of argumentation! Try to remember your posts before starting to affront other members  Nuts

What do you want to say with that?? - only expressed that the infrastructure of Berlin can't be the problem - I took London as reference, because everybody knows that London isn't a bad place to invest.

Don't forget, I took reference to your statements - so did I

BTW PLEASE read the last line of reply 37 again

pelican


[Edited 2004-05-06 23:17:11]
 
musapapaya
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RE: Germanwings Will "kick Out" EasyJet

Fri May 07, 2004 6:16 am

Hi,

in my opinon, 4U is sort of more puntual and efficent while easyjet is slow, not on time...

with regards to service, i cant say a word, i just been on 4U.. but the ountuality stats are bad from easyjet..
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