taca
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:50 pm

The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Fri May 07, 2004 4:40 am

According with some news delivered today, the monopoly for flights between Central America of Copa Airlines and Taca Group, is going to an end. West Caribbean (Colombian based) and Aeropostal (Venezuelan) announced new flights between Central American countries.

Even more, Aeropostal and Sol Air also announced in Honduras a new strategic alliance to compete with CM and TA.

According with my point of view, West Caribbean (using small aircraft for only 43 passengers) nor Aeropostal with an a very old fleet, can compete with the brand new 737 of CM and A319 and A320 of TA, and their experience and background of both.

May I know your opinion?
 
4jaded
Posts: 246
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Fri May 07, 2004 5:24 am

I really don't think CM and TA have anything to worry about. They are both really good carriers.
 
EddieDude
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Fri May 07, 2004 11:02 am

Wouldn't it be a duopoly? Monopoly implies the existence of only one dominant participant in a determined market.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
Southamerica
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Fri May 07, 2004 12:59 pm


I don't think there's anything to worry about either.

West Caribbean has been flying for quite a while now to both Panama and Costa Rica from Colombia, without affecting CM's loads that much; considering that they offer pretty competitive fares.


SOUTHAMERICA

 
taca
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Fri May 07, 2004 3:25 pm

Wouldn't it be a duopoly? Monopoly implies the existence of only one dominant participant in a determined market.

**************************

Your 100% right Eddie. Sorry was my mistake!

Whatever it was, a Monopoly or Duopoly(?) it's getting to an end. That's for sure.
 
aer
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Sat May 08, 2004 7:15 am

EddieDude,

actually it is called an oligopoly in those cases.
nice and spacious airports in need of new airlines and flights... GUA or FRS anyone?... anyone at all?
 
EddieDude
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Sat May 08, 2004 10:15 am

The Greek root oligos- means "a few" while duos- means two. Thus, a duopoly.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
aer
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Sat May 08, 2004 2:19 pm

I know it sounds right with the etymological roots of the words; but in business, what I study, oligopoly (oligopolio) is the right term for these cases. Merriam-Websters dictionary states "a market situation in which each of a few producers affects but does not control the market."
nice and spacious airports in need of new airlines and flights... GUA or FRS anyone?... anyone at all?
 
EddieDude
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Sun May 09, 2004 2:57 am

As far as I know, the term oligopoly can be applied, as you insist, to markets in which there are two participants, but the term duopoly is way more used under such circumstances. If you take a look at court opinions, treatises, case studies, law school text books and case books, law journals and other sources of authoritative information on legal matters, you will find that the term duopoly is more frequently used to describe such markets than the term oligopoly, which term is rather applied to markets in which more than two participants exert control. FYI, follow this link to a paper published in NYU's Journal of Industrial Economics. It is only an example of how economists (both writers of the paper are members of the faculty of the departments of economics of very renowned international universities) and lawyers tend to use, on a regular basis, the term duopoly for markets in which there are two participants that have a dominant position: http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~lcabral/papers/JIE%201997.pdf. Like this paper, you will find many, many more applications of the word duopoly to such markets. Too bad I do not have here at home my notes, materials and casebook from the Antitrust Law course that I took while pursuing my LL.M. degree at the University of Chicago Law School. I could quote portions of court opinions and of text books using this term.

[Edited 2004-05-08 20:02:01]
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
XA744
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Sun May 09, 2004 12:22 pm

Howdy folks, EddieDude is very right.

I´ve just checked with a friend of mine, who is deep into commercial legal affairs, and he told me that the right term to be used in the CM/TA case should be:

DUOPOLY.

He briefly defines it as follow:

Trade of goods or a particular service held by only two companies or organizations.

Best regards
No matter how you fly...just never get your wings clipped !
 
cptGirmayTesfa
Posts: 374
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Mon May 10, 2004 1:32 am

I word from Copa's hub:
I think it will be hard to really compete with Copa and Taca if a newcomer cannot come up with at least daily flights between the Central American capitals. Also, Aeropostal has a bad image here because of their very old planes.
But on the positive side: the market is promising, Taca and Copa flights are well filled and are very profitable. There is even such a demand that Taca still manages to fly around here, even though Copa Airlines is far better than Taca in terms of service.
 
taca
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Mon May 10, 2004 4:13 am

"There is even such a demand that Taca still manages to fly around here, even though Copa Airlines is far better than Taca in terms of service."

-------------

I don't want to transform this forum into a battle field. But I strongly disagree with this statement.

CM service is basically as good as TA. Nevertheless. TA has more destinations and frequencies than CM. Even more, Taca's fleet is as new as CM, but greater. TA shares is basically own by Central American people (specially Kriete family, a Salvadoran family) among some other minor shareholders. So, TA (Transportes Aereos del Continente Americano, ex Transportes Aereos Centroamericanos) is 100% owned by Central American people vs. CM that practically belongs to CO (at least 49% of it's capital).

 
taca
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Mon May 10, 2004 4:33 am

Just one addition to my previous post. TA fleet is not just greater in terms of diversity but bigger than CM.

Thanks
 
cptGirmayTesfa
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Mon May 10, 2004 6:03 am

Me and my colleagues here avoid Taca wherever possible; fortunately Copa is opening more routes within CAM, like SJO-TGU. I used to be stationed in Costa Rica, now I moved to Panama, happy as Copa has more options from here than from SJO  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Taca has that Copa has not:
*uncomfortable departure times due to their morning hub system in SAL (so going out towards SAL you have to be very early!)
*freaking low on-board temperature
*The nasty habit of not distributing headphones on flights shorter than 2 hours (ie. most C-Am flights), but instead providing a loud-volume entertainment (rock music and annoying ads included) through the speakers.
*No food (except for some lousy peanuts or similar).

Taca?? Brrrrrrr
Take Another Carrier Amigo!!
 
taca
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Mon May 10, 2004 6:18 am

I can say exactly the same about myself and friends that avoid CM.

TA has three major hubs: SAL, SJO and LIM instead just one as CM in PTY.

*Freaking low on-board temperature? Come on! You must be joking... Give me a better excuse!
*"Nasty habit..." "Loud volume..." "Rock music..." And you hear the fifth symphony from Beethoven in a 30 minutes flight? In what world do you live?
*What do you get with CM during 55 minutes flight from SJO to PTY at 7 a.m.?
A lobster? Just a lousy peanuts man.

As I told you TA is a Central American product. CM is just a part of CO.

I will not say "CM= brrrrrrrrr". It will be a totally lack of respect, to you and to CM people. But please, open your eyes man!!!!!!!!!

 
cptGirmayTesfa
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Mon May 10, 2004 6:28 am

Well brrrrr is an expression of feeling cold (refer to my earlier comment on on-board temperature) in my language and I thought in others too, sorry if I upset you on that one.

Well I don't care who owns the airline, I care about the service!

*yes, it is always very cold
*Rock or Beethoven... whatever, that's not the point. Provide earphones for those who want to listen to what they like, or keep the system shut. It's that simple.
*Taca from PTY goes at 6am. The afternoon prop flight is unreliable as it is frequently cancelled. TGU departure same problem. MEX departures are so early, not even to consider! By the way, Copa has 3 flights daily between SJO and PTY, so easy to avoid the 7am one.
*Copa has decent food on all flights; on the shortest flights it is at least a warm sandwich.

I hope for Taca that not too many people open their eyes indeed  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

PS many ticos in SJO say the same, the former LACSA was much better!
 
taca
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Mon May 10, 2004 7:03 am

We definitely agree to disagree.

I really didn't understand the "brrrrrrrrr". Now I do and I apologize!

As long as I know those three daily flights are code shared with TA (pls correct me if I am wrong).

**Taca from PTY goes at 6am.** And Copa from SCL to PTY departs at 3:00 a.m. or so, and the service (pls understand "the food", nothing against the F/As) is simply uneatable. I really don't understand what do you mean by "decent food" or if you are insinuating that TA's food is "not decent". All depends on what you understand by "decent".

I don't work for any, I repeat, any airline in this world. I'm just a professional who travel for business or pleasure. I don't know if it's your case. But I always try to keep both eyes wide open to see the reality and the truth and mine about TA and CM is very different as yours. That's for sure!

By the way, CM owns me the "warm" sandwich. I never ever see one between SJO-PTY and viceversa.



 
cptGirmayTesfa
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Mon May 10, 2004 7:21 am

CM and TA only code-share on MGA-SAL: an afternoon CM flight that TA was interested in too. I take that flight often as it is the only way to get into SAL and get a connection without having to weak up at 5am.

I agree 100% that CM's flights from Santiago is terrible. But it's the only CM flight in the entire system that has a very bad schedule. Anyway, we were talking about Central America.

SJO-PTY on CM: morning flight: warm sandwich, filled with ham and cheese
afternoon flights: cold ham and cheese sandwich with potato crisps and chocolate bar.
evening flights: breadsticks with cheese, raisins and chocolate bar.
I agree that if you don't like cheese you are better off with the TA peanuts.
I have flown the route zillion times, and it's really like that! I suppose you had an exceptional CM flight.

I agree on our disagreements. I can only add that I am at least someone from a third country....

 
taca
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Mon May 10, 2004 7:55 am

You allow me to talk about the SCL-PTY route when you talked about MEX (that is not Central America) in your reply #15.

You are definitely not the only one who fly the route zillion(?) of times, maybe the only Ethiopian in Panama, but for sure the only non Panamanian citizen who memorized Copa's "menu". Sounds strange that you first state that "Copa has decent food on all flights; on the shortest flights it is at least a warm sandwich." (See reply 15). And after you say that "afternoon flights: cold ham and cheese sandwich with potato crisps and chocolate bar" (so the "warm" sandwich became "cold" minutes later). (See reply 17). That's why I told you to keep your eyes wide open, not only to memorize a menu, but to see what you previously wrote.

By the way, your supposition about my CM flights (yes, with an "s", in plural) were not exceptional, not even good. That's the reason why I prefer TACA!

I don't understand what do you exactly mean with your last statement, but I know that you're Ethiopian (the only one in Panama according with you), that you live (or are based) in Panama, so at least, you have a Panamanian Residency. And I'm a proud Tico and a loyal TACA customer!

Cheers  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

P.S. I do love cheese. You should ever try sometime the Costarican one!
 
cptGirmayTesfa
Posts: 374
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Mon May 10, 2004 8:10 am

Sorry about Mexico, you are right.

Food: You are right in your counter attacks; but I think hard to deny that CM's food as listed is better than the TA mani.....

What I mean with my last statement: I am neither Panamese nor Costarican, so it seems to me at I am more objective! Reading your last message and your signature I suspect that the proud factor plays a role in your case.

I have lived for three years in your country too, by the way. Now I am stationed in Panama, but will move later this year to Peru.

Sorry, never tried the Turrialba....
 
taca
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Mon May 10, 2004 12:51 pm

"I am neither Panamese nor Costarican, so it seems to me at I am more objective! Reading your last message and your signature I suspect that the proud factor plays a role in your case".
CptGirmayTesfa
-------------------------------------

I have to say that your obsession about the mani (peanuts) and the cold and warm sandwiches is really weird. The last peanut I saw in Taca was last Monday (May 3rd., 2004), flight 630 from CCS to SJO, and was just the beginning of an exquisite complete hot meal, dessert and full bar service.

By the way, I really don't see anything wrong with the peanuts, widely served by CO which owns CM (CM serve "papitas" instead of "mani").

What a coincidence, the salad served yesterday in a meeting has Turrialba, and nobody complained... Maybe next time we will try an Ethiopian recipe.

About my signature it's very simple, and nothing new: I'm a proud customer of TA for more than 10 years, and loyal to my principles. You may see dozens of signatures like mine in airliners.net from people who is also loyal to an specific airline, and don't work for it! Just check them!

Hope you'll enjoy your next station (LIM), as well as you do with CM's warm and cold sandwiches. A city where TA has, among two others, a hub.

Instead of those insipid sandwiches try a ceviche de corvina or a chupe!

Cheers

 Smile



 
Lan_Fanatic
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Mon May 10, 2004 1:35 pm

Oh, central american fight...nice!... LOL

I have a question. Are Taca and Copa succesful in routes to deep South America (SCL,EZE,GRU)?? I don't know about Taca, but as far as I know Copa is succesful. And if so, why other airlines like Lan, Aerolineas Argentinas or Varig don't fly to SJO or PTY???
 
EddieDude
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Mon May 10, 2004 1:46 pm

Lan_Fanatic, now that you mention that LA does not fly to PTY, do you know if LA's Peruvian affiliate LP flies to PTY?

I find it strange that the big South American carriers neglect Central America. I guess the reason why CM is successful to EZE, GRU and SCL is because it has no competition from AR, RG, JJ and LA. If these carriers flew to PTY they would probably do so with widebody airplanes and that would put CM in disadvantage (I believe PTY-EZE in a 737 must be somewhat uncomfortable).
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
taca
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Mon May 10, 2004 2:13 pm

Lan_Fanatic

What concerns about TA, South American routes are profitable for the biggest Central American Airline. It has daily flights to Bogota, Caracas, Quito, Guayaquil, Lima (where TA has one of three Hubs), Cuzco, La Paz, Santa Cruz, Santiago, Sao Paulo and Buenos Aires. Routes to deep South America destinations, operated through Taca Peru, part of Grupo Taca, and based in Lima use A319 for 120 passengers and A320 for 150 passengers.

Upper South America destinations (like BOG and CCS) are operated daily from SJO and SAL (by TA or LR).

I think it's important to state that for example CCS it's a very profitable route for TA (operated by LR) since 9/11 incident, for people flying to Europe and connecting with AZ, AF, LH and IB, trying to avoid MIA.

Once in the past Varig flew to SJO using a sharing code with LR (before TA begins as Grupo Taca), but they dropped it soon. Avianca, Sam and Aces did the same until Aces filed for bankruptcy.

I really don't think that Central America is profitable for Lan, Varig or Aerolineas Argentinas, since that routes (from and to Central America) are well covered by TA and CM.

(I miss LAN, the best Latin American Airline, and like its new livery)!
 
Lan_Fanatic
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Mon May 10, 2004 10:41 pm

That is what I don't get.
Maybe with one airline for each route (from SJO and PTY) is enough. But how come the southern cone airlines never realized that this routes would be succesful? Or is it because of the connecting posssibilities TA and CM offer? At least this two airlines offer much cheaper fares to MIA as an example, than Lan from SCL
 
taca
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Mon May 10, 2004 11:23 pm

TA and CM really don't have "cheaper" fares for routes from SCL to MIA, but they do offer from time to time special fares during the year (you may check www.taca.com). Remember that both (TA and CM) has at least one stopover with an aircraft change in that route. But if you fly LAN or AA on the same route it's almost a 100% sure that you got a direct flight.

According with be best of my knowledge, South American routes for TA are profitable thanks to Taca Peru and it's LIM hub. CM also is successful in the same routes because (an this is only an example) on their SCL-PTY route, you leave Santiago around 3:00 a.m., arriving to Panama around 8:00 a.m. and have the chance to connect to La Habana, San Jose, Managua, San Salvador, Guatemala, Mexico and Miami within an hour. Remember that CM practically belongs to CO (who owns 49% of CM shares), so if somebody depart from some point to Central America with CO and have to continue to somewhere in South America, he or she will fly CM. That's for sure. CM is Panamanian only in papers, but it's a regional subsidiary for CO. When you have 49% or more of the total amount of shares in one corporation, you dominate it and do with it whatever you want. As well as LR that belongs to TA that is Salvadoran capital (from a wealthy family, Kriete family as a major shareholder).

AA has five daily flights from SJO (3 of them to MIA, one to Dallas/Fort Worth and another one to NYC), so many people prefer to connect their with a "direct flight" to Santiago, Buenos Aires o Rio de Janeiro. You also have two daily flights of CO, two UA's, to different points in the U.S. where you can also connect with a direct flight to South America. Is it cheaper? It isn't. Less hours? It isn't. Specially if you consider the new Immigration regulations from the U.S. Government after 9/11 incident. But many people prefer it for different reasons.

 
taca
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Mon May 10, 2004 11:28 pm

Sorry, I forget to mention America West, US Airways and Delta with daily flights to and from SJO, that adds opportunities to connect with a direct flight to South America.
 
JJJM
Posts: 198
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 7:33 am

RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Tue May 11, 2004 6:02 am

Well Well, i normally don´t reply but here i go...

I flown many times on TACA, and I can say they are a great small Airline... They have a decent web page, with attractives fares, their planes are clean and nice, only that their seats needs more sponge, they gave u some back pain in very long flights.

There food, sandwich basis are good, very tastefull, I do enjoy them. Much better that Top class ailines that on the same route will only give you peanuts and drinks.

Their entertainment is good for a small airline, you get pictures, and sometimes documentaries.

Connecting in SJO is quick and easy, easier than PTY, only that PTY has better stores.

FF program is great, i´ve got triple miles in 2 trips i´ve done with them, and in some other cases i´ve got double miles. I´ve earned free tkt´s faster on TACA than any other airline.

The best of all is their flight attendants, 90% male flight attendants, they are the cutiest ever, very friendly and gougeous looking. I can´t keep my eyes off of them.

In general everytime i have a chance to fly TACA, i do so.

TACA a great small airline

 
taca
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Tue May 11, 2004 12:29 pm

Jjjm


Thank you very much for your comment!

I'll appreciate it!

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
COPA737
Posts: 327
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Wed May 12, 2004 3:39 am

Taca,

For your info, Copa Airlines was named the best airline in Central America, Mexico and the Caribbean, by SkyTrax, an English market-survey company. The World Airline Survey, recognized as the largest airline passenger survey in existence, judges quality of products and services offered customers. The results of the survey, carried out between June 2003 and March 2004, were based on more than 10 million responses sent in by passengers of 90 different nationalities.

I don't know but seems like you hate Copa for some reason. Let me tell you that a airline that have won this award is because it really deserves it. Copa have prove over years their exceptional service even before the Continental Alliance. I can say that Copa Panama have the better service in Central America before the born of Grupo Taca.

It's sad that you don't recognize that Copa have done a lot of things by themselves, many of the routes that they are opening now were Copa plans of many years.

Taca may have a bigger fleet but not for to much. Copa already have 21 planes and it going to receive 4 more direct from Seattle this year.

I think that many costarricans are upset for what Taca is doing in Costa Rica. Many says that Lacsa was a better airline before its union with Taca. Many people have told me that.

I think it doesn't matter how many hubs do you have. If you have at least one, that is one of the most efficient and successful in Latin America is everything to make feel proud.

Copa flies to 30 destinations in 20 countries. Its a great network for a airline that only operates from one Hub. Of course if you put all the Taca hubs together you will get 40 destinations and 19 countries that is not as good as the only hub of Copa.

Copa will continue to grow in the next years, they are planning to add second frequencies to all their destinations and also opening new routes like Rio de Janeiro, as well as many Mexican destinations. Also opening routes to Canada.

And another interesting thing the adquisition of Avianca, will open new markets for Copa and Avianca. This two airlines together will be one of Best carrier in Latinamerica for sure.

Lets see what happens in the next years, and then you can came here and say that Taca is better than Copa.

Best regards,

Felipe

En Copa si volamos cada dia mejor!!
Panamá Crece y Copa Airlines crece con Panamá!
 
cptGirmayTesfa
Posts: 374
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Wed May 12, 2004 4:07 am

I wouldn't be too enthusiastic taking Taca from the Southern Cone to Central America / Caribbean / US, apart from the reasons I gave above. Look at the routes that I quickly derived from Taca's website (unfriendly website by the way, so excuse me if I got some errors):

From EZE you have to change TWICE (namely in SJO and SAL) in order to get to MGA, TGU, SAP, HAV, JFK, IAD, LAX, SFO. MIA/JFK/LAX/SFO can also be done with one change in SJO but then the wait is long.

From GRU and SCL you have to change THREE TIMES (namely in LIM, SJO and SAL) to get to those destinations; same remarks apply to MIA/JFK/LAX/SFO as above.

In addition, the flight EZE-SJO stops in LIM.

Copa on the other hand serves all above destinations (plus SJU and SDQ, minus SAP, IAD, SFO) with only one change in their Panama hub.

The choice is obvious to me!
 
EddieDude
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Wed May 12, 2004 4:15 am

Felipe, which Mexican destinations will be started by CM? They are already flying to MEX and CUN, so I can only think of MTY. Perhaps GDL too? Or an additional beach destination?
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
cptGirmayTesfa
Posts: 374
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Wed May 12, 2004 4:21 am

Rumors here are about Monterey, perhaps Copa737 can confirm.

BTW I wonder how Copa can add more destinations as at the 'hub times' at PTY, all gates seem to be occupied...
 
COPA737
Posts: 327
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Wed May 12, 2004 5:07 am

Yes, many people says that Monterrey could be a new Copa destination, but only the time will tell us.

Well, Panama is working hard to get a new Tocumen the next year. They are going to add 7 more gates and 6 remote positions. The works should begin in June and will finish in one year. The airport is going to have modern gates, the duty free area will be relocated and there is going to be more waiting areas. Also a Casino, new restaurants are planned.

Then, the plan is to build a new terminal but this is going to take some years.

Regards,

Copa737
Panamá Crece y Copa Airlines crece con Panamá!
 
taca
Posts: 134
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RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Wed May 12, 2004 5:37 am

"For your info, Copa Airlines was named the best airline in Central America, Mexico and the Caribbean, by SkyTrax, an English market-survey company. The World Airline Survey, recognized as the largest airline passenger survey in existence, judges quality of products and services offered customers. The results of the survey, carried out between June 2003 and March 2004, were based on more than 10 million responses sent in by passengers of 90 different nationalities.

I don't know but seems like you hate Copa for some reason. Let me tell you that a airline that have won this award is because it really deserves it. Copa have prove over years their exceptional service even before the Continental Alliance. I can say that Copa Panama have the better service in Central America before the born of Grupo Taca." Copa737
----------------

Do you believe everything everything stated in a magazine? By the way, may I have the name of the magazine, where I can find the result of such survey?

Maybe you don't get the point: I don't hate CM, I don't hate Panama, I don't hate Panamanians. I simply prefer TA over CM. I never ever said that TA is the best airline in the area, but I just simply prefer it over any other. By the way, you're right when you say "I can say that Copa Panama have the better service in Central America before the born of Grupo Taca", but not after.

"I think it doesn't matter how many hubs do you have. If you have at least one, that is one of the most efficient and successful in Latin America is everything to make feel proud.

Copa flies to 30 destinations in 20 countries. Its a great network for a(sic) airline that only operates from one Hub. Of course if you put all the Taca hubs together you will get 40 destinations and 19 countries that is not as good as the only hub of Copa." Copa737
------------------------------

Very interesting! "If you have at least one, that is one of the most efficient and successful in Latin America..." I can say exactly the same for SAL-SJO and LIM. But if I can't prove it, it doesn't worth. By the way: Tocumen is still category 2 according the FAA?

------------------------------

"Copa will continue to grow in the next years, they are planning to add second frequencies to all their destinations and also opening new routes like Rio de Janeiro, as well as many Mexican destinations. Also opening routes to Canada.

And another interesting thing the adquisition(sic) of Avianca, will open new markets for Copa and Avianca. This two airlines together will be one of Best carrier in Latinamerica for sure". Copa737
------------------------------

Because what you state is not in the present, we will see what happen in the near future. But remember, one (CM) is own by a large U.S. airline (CO owns at least 49% of CM's shares) and the other filed for bankruptcy in the U.S. and it's apparently saved thanks to a Brazilian group. TACA is a proudly 100%Central American product.
------------------------------

"Lets see what happens in the next years, and then you can came here and say that Taca is better than Copa." Copa737
------------------------------

Yes. Time will say. Hope God give life to be there!

------------------------------

CptGirmayTesfa

You stated in another forum that you want to try AV in your next trip to LIM, nevertheless you prefer CM. Everybody in the forum recommended you AV over CM. Just try AV and compare!!!!!!!

The presence of TA in South America is obviously different than CM. The market rules are not always the same for two airlines in the same routes. I can give you some examples (AA vs. UA) (IB vs. AF) (LAN vs. Varig).

TA's South American routes are profitable, and people likes to fly their routes, as others prefer CM.

By the way, you are not the only Ethiopian in Panama (as you state in your signature) but the only person in this world who says that TA webpage in not friendly (or is unfriendly). Can you prove that????????

Come one guys! Give me better reasons.

I will be waiting for the survey and magazine statistics!

Cheers,  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


 
luisca
Posts: 1530
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 11:37 am

RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Wed May 12, 2004 5:41 am

it could be another leisure route, like puerto vallarta or acapulco. The new T2 at Tocumen will be done by 2007, the remodeling of the old terminal by next year. TACA (the user not the airline) seems to love emphazizing that copa is partially owned by CO, but forgets that he doesnt have a national airline, like we do. and many costaricans liked lacsa better than Taca. And if the adquisition of Avianca goes through as expected, we will have 2 hubs, and be one of the biggest airline in the region. And about the Santiago flight, even though it leaves at 3 am it means that by noon you are at your destination, not 1 am like some taca flights, and only after having changed planes 3 times
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15455
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Wed May 12, 2004 5:56 am

How can it be a monopoly, or duopoly, or oligoply, when TA isn't even one company, but rather a group of companies that seek to merge into one entity?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
taca
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:50 pm

RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Wed May 12, 2004 6:00 am

"TACA (the user not the airline) seems to love emphazizing that copa is partially owned by CO, but forgets that he doesnt have a national airline, like we do." Luisca
----------------

Who says that CM is Panamanian? It's a subsidiary of CO that owns 49% of CM's shares. By the way, Lacsa exist, and I can prove you, and has aircrafts with the name "LACSA" on them. Just check airliners.net

LR is part of Grupo Taca and mainly owned by TA.

"And about the Santiago flight, even though it leaves at 3 am it means that by noon you are at your destination, not 1 am like some taca flights, and only after having changed planes 3 times". What TA flights are you refering to? Just mention the flight number!

By the way, at what time arrive CM to SCL?
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15455
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Wed May 12, 2004 6:24 am

"By the way, at what time arrive CM to SCL?"

0245 local, and departs for PTY at 0345
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
COPA737
Posts: 327
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2002 12:45 am

RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Wed May 12, 2004 9:15 am

Taca,

Please visit http://www.airlinequality.com/2004/group_results.htm

for the awards results. It's not the first time Copa receive an award. I haven't heard the same from Taca. It's true you can't trust everything you read in magazines but when you see how they chose this awards, you may notice that its very serious.

Also In November 2002, PODER Magazine, Booz, Allen & Hamilton and Egon Zehnder International gave Copa the “Best Regionalization in Latin America award, and in December of that same year, the Central American Tourism Federation gave Copa Airlines the “Turismo Sin Fronteras(Tourism Without Boundaries) award. In April 2003, Copa received AirFinance Journals first Developing Airline of the Year Award.

The Hub of the Americas have also received awards. I haven't heard the same from El Salvador, Lima or San Jose. Sorry, but the passengers have the final words and I have heard many good comments of the Copa hub as a system. Just go and search for passengers comments in the internet and you will find many. Also you asked if Panama is category 2, not its not Panama is now category 1 approved by the FAA.

And also Copa has reported a 95.6 percent on-time performance record for 1st quarter 2004, the highest record the airline has ever achieved. How about Taca?

Please show me how many planes have LACSA titles. Three??, N981LR, N991LR and N481TA. Don't worry soon all the planes will have TACA titles.
At least we have 21 planes with Copa Airlines titles and Panamanian flag on it, and Panamanian registration, not a salvadorean or Peruvian and neither a US flag or US registrations.

Who is the CEO of LACSA a costarican or a salvadorean?. The CEO of Copa is 100% Panamanian and have done a great work over years. Most of the pilots are Panamanian as well as the high ranking officers and crew.

Continental owns 49%, Panamanian capital 49%, workers 2%. The Panamanian capital is Panamanian and the workers too. 49% + 2%= 51%.

Regards,
Copa 737




Panamá Crece y Copa Airlines crece con Panamá!
 
taca
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:50 pm

RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Wed May 12, 2004 11:03 am

"The Hub of the Americas have also received awards. I haven't heard the same from El Salvador, Lima or San Jose. Sorry, but the passengers have the final words and I have heard many good comments of the Copa hub as a system. Just go and search for passengers comments in the internet and you will find many. Also you asked if Panama is category 2, not its not Panama is now category 1 approved by the FAA." Copa737
----------------------------------------------

Is about time that the Hub of the las Americas got category 1 now by the FAA!!!!!! SAL-SJO and LIM got it zillion of years ago! As I state before, CM is just a subsidiary of CO. Anything is done in CM without the blessing of CO. Even more, both liveries are practically the same.

----------------------------------------------
"Please show me how many planes have LACSA titles. Three??, N981LR, N991LR and N481TA. Don't worry soon all the planes will have TACA titles.
At least we have 21 planes with Copa Airlines titles and Panamanian flag on it, and Panamanian registration, not a salvadorean or Peruvian and neither a US flag or US registrations." Copa737
----------------------------------------------

Oh yes!!!!!!!! You're right!!!!!!!!!!!!! Only three, maybe two or just one!. And your also right stating that maybe soon all a/c will have TACA titles. The reason is so simple: they will become part of a much more bigger and modern fleet (more than 32 A319s and A320s). I also give you credit when you said that CM a/cs has Panamanian flag and registrations. TA has Salvadoran, Costarican, Guatemalan, Panamanian and Peruvian flags and U.S. registrations. So I say: What about it???????????

You may see many ships at Miami harbor, with Panamanian flag and registrations, all beautiful cruises, but.... they don't belong to Panama.

----------------------------------------------

"And also Copa has reported a 95.6 percent on-time performance record for 1st quarter 2004, the highest record the airline has ever achieved. How about Taca?"

According with the information I got seven days ago during a flight from CCS to SJO, 95%. I think 0.6% makes no difference at all.

-----------------------------------------------

"Who is the CEO of LACSA a costarican or a salvadorean?. The CEO of Copa is 100% Panamanian and have done a great work over years. Most of the pilots are Panamanian as well as the high ranking officers and crew."

LACSA's CEO is Fernando Naranjo. Former Ministry of Foreign Affairs, former President of the Banco Central de Costa Rica, and a well known economist in Latin America.

------------------------------------------------

"Continental owns 49%, Panamanian capital 49%, workers 2%. The Panamanian capital is Panamanian and the workers too. 49% + 2%= 51%."

And they got only the Panamanian flag and registrationson the a/cs

Everything else is a copy/paste from CO.

I just want to see the CM CEO doing something against CO will. I beat he will fired immediately!

TACA's capital, is 100% proudly Central American!!!!!!!!!

-------------------------------------------------

I just saw the link you showed: TAM better tha LAN?, Continental better than AA?, Cathay over Singapore (Regional Best Airline)? They must be kidding!!!!!!

I can't believe that you believe that crap!

I seems not to be a serious webpage. But who cares. As you state paxs decide!

Let them fly TA, CM or whatever they want?

And remember: Airlines survive not by the above said awards, that maybe are covered by dust, or hidden at the CEO office. They survive thanks to their loyal clients!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm a TACA's one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And a very proud one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




"

 
cptGirmayTesfa
Posts: 374
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:43 am

RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Wed May 12, 2004 1:12 pm

Well as the discussion started, TA and CM will face some more competition, so let's see how many clients stay loyal! I am skeptical though, it seems to me that the C-Am governments overprotect their prides. TA and CM control Central America, ticket prices are exactly the same, and are very high! I respect anyone's national pride but I prefer sound competition, that's better for the people!

 
cptGirmayTesfa
Posts: 374
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:43 am

RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Wed May 12, 2004 1:14 pm

I guess SANSA is still Costarican?
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6305
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Wed May 12, 2004 1:36 pm

I have never been on a CM or a TA flight before. That said, I have the impression that CM has been able to exploit PTY's fabulous location in order to develop a very smart route system and an even better timetable. Good connections, I think, have been the cornerstone of CM's success. The fleet has also played an important role since all planes are very new 737NG's and, as I understand, kept in excellent condition. It seems to me that, in the medium term, CM has better prospects for expansion than TA. The opening of new destinations in Mexico, Canada, the U.S. and Brazil is just a sign of that.

With respect to TA, I have heard that their product is good too, but I think they are behind CM in terms of geographic coverage (I am talking about non-Central American routes) and, more importantly, connection practicality. Nevertheless, I wish TA well and I hope that they can hold their own against CM and other competitors (by the way, I do not think that Sol Air/Aeropostal will pose a serious threat to either TA or CM). In any case, I just want to mention that TA is going to be facing serious problems in the LIM-MEx route. Currently AM and TA codeshare on this route and AM flied it 4x weekly using a 752 while TA flies it 3x weekly using an A32x. Problem is that LP is now flying LIM-MX), Mexico">MEX non-stop using a 762ER also 4x weekly and offered very attractive business class introductory fares. This forced AM to increase frequencies to 5x weekly and to lower both its coach and business fares. In a nutshell, a fare war developed. TA, however, is only a silent witness of AM and LP's bold moves and, hopefully not, may be forced out of the market by the two bigger carriers. Anyway, let's see what happens.

Finally, about the awards, I agree that sometimes they do not mean much. Moreover, there are several surveys, organizations, etc. that give awards, so it is really hard to say who is in fact better. In fact, MX has been winning the title of Best Latin American airline several years in a row. This award is given, I believe, by an association of travel agents from all over the world (but mainly from Europe). While MX is not CX in terms of service, it is a very good airline in my opinion and undoubtedly a strong rival for Central American carriers in their flights to North America. I think that MX is CM and TA's true competitor in the Central America-U.S./Canada market due to the very big network of MX destinations in the U.S. and Canada and the codeshare with AC and AA. At the moment, MX flies twice daily to GUA using A319's, once daily to SJO using a 752 and 4 weekly to SAL using an A319 (all from MEx) and I understand they have good loads.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
taca
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:50 pm

RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Wed May 12, 2004 1:37 pm

"I guess SANSA is still Costarican?" CptGirmayTesfa

-------------------------------

It is. But part of Grupo Taca.

The company "Servicios Aereos Nacionales, S.A." is a Costarican Corporation, but owned by Grupo Taca as I said.

I agree 100% with your post #42. Specially with the extremely high fares (e.g. SJO-MGA-SJO ticket with TA or Cm cost more than US$200 plus taxes, and SJO-MIA-SJO with AA, LR, TA, IB, Martinair, less than U.S.$150,00 plus taxes).

Unbelievable but true!
 
COPA737
Posts: 327
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2002 12:45 am

RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Wed May 12, 2004 2:00 pm

Panama had the category 1 years before Peru, Costa Rica and El Salvador, that's for sure. Panama lost it in 2001 and in 2004 we got it back. Most of the countries can't resolve all the security requirements in 3 years. But Panama did it.

"According with the information I got seven days ago during a flight from CCS to SJO, 95%. I think 0.6% makes no difference at all."

No is not, but that is not the TACA on-time performance, I read in taca.com that was 85% or something like that. I saw the information some minutes ago, but now is gone, I don't find it. That website is a little tricky to use.

What the LACSA's CEO does?

I just want to see the CM CEO doing something against CO will. I beat he will fired immediately!

I don't think so Pedro Heilbron Copa's CEO have a great relationship with the Motta family the owners of the 49% of Copa. I think he won't be fired if they don't bring someone better than him, and that would be pretty hard.

About the survey you took some examples that could be perfectly correct.
TAM Brazil is one of the better companies in Latin America in terms of service to the passenger and fleet and everything it can perfectly be equal or better that LAN in some things.

Continental better than AA, is not to far away from the reality. Continental is one of the airline with better service in United States, and it wasn't in serious financial problems with the Sept. 11 events. In 2003, Fortune magazine named Continental as the best airline in United States for the service quality and product.

And Cathay is worldwide recognized as one of the best airlines in the industry.
I don't see why this could be out of the reality. When 10 million people from every part of the world vote for their favorite airline, you have to count that.

As I stated before the passengers decide, and many many have chose Copa Airlines over many others, they should have a good reason to do it. As you said Airlines don't survive by the awards, but its always good to be recognize as one of the best in the industry and believe it or not the passengers look closer at it.

Copa Airlines success speaks by itself. And I'm really proud of it as a Panamanian.

Regards,

Copa737


Panamá Crece y Copa Airlines crece con Panamá!
 
taca
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:50 pm

RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Wed May 12, 2004 2:02 pm

"once daily to SJO using a 752"

Eddie: They are using an A320, not a 752!

 
EddieDude
Posts: 6305
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Wed May 12, 2004 2:08 pm

Oh, thanks for the correction Taca, I must then throw away my January MX timetable and get a new one. But they flew a 752 to SJO at some point, didn't they?
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
taca
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:50 pm

RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Wed May 12, 2004 2:23 pm

Absolutely!

But apparently they change the a/c from time to time.
 
latinaviation
Posts: 1162
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:25 pm

RE: The End Of A Monopoly For CM And TA

Wed May 12, 2004 9:48 pm

In my opinion, you guys are arguing over the petty stuff. Can't you see how far both TA and CM have come over the past decade, if not more? When Federico Bloch started with Taca in the late '70s they operated three 737s. That's it. They've since been able to integrate many of Central American airlines into a unified brand and service delivery, plus expand to Peru. Copa, too, has experienced an incredible turnaround under Pedro Heilbron.

In the end, it's going to take a lot more, imho, to take down TA or CM than West Caribbean or Aeropostal/Sol Air deciding to commit to a hub in the region. Both airlines have smart managers with are too much business acumen to let someone else profit at their expense. Just look at what Taca has done to Aero Costa Rica, Sol Air, amongst others, to combat competition on their home turf.

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