7e72004
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Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 2:06 am

How have the first few days been for the PHL loads on Southwest?
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InnocuousFox
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 4:24 am

The first day's loads were covered in another thread. You can find it.
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SWAFA30
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 4:48 am

Here are the pax loads for Sundays Flights. After the city pair, the first number is the total passengers on board, the second is the aicraft capacity.

OUTBOUND

#741 PHL-MDW... 119/137
#1080 PHL-MCO... 128/137
#723 PHL-TPA... 120/137
#2953 PHL-PHX... 132/137
#1101 PHL-MCO... 131/137
#327 PHL-MDW... 120/137
#1638 PHL-PVD... 137/137
#422 PHL-PVD... 117/137
#978 PHL-MCO... 130/137
#1233 PHL-PVD... 44/137
#1165 PHL-MDW... 65/137
#777 PHL-LAS... 120/137
#2294 PHL-PVD... 42/137

78.8% Load Factor Outbound


INBOUND

#877 MDW-PHL... 41/137
#2953 PVD-PHL... 105/137
#985 MCO-PHL... 134/137
#1638 TPA-PHL... 127/137
#422 LAS-PHL... 130/137
#978 PVD-PHL... 36/137
#1233 MDW-PHL... 131/137
#643 MCO-PHL... 127/137
#777 PVD-PHL... 27/137
#1508 PVD-PHL... 42/137
#628 MCO-PHL... 82/137
#879 MDW-PHL...96/137
#2075 PHX-PHL... 112/137

66.8% Load Factor Inbound

72.8% Load Factor Overall

For comparison sake WN posted a 2nd quarter profit on a quarterly system load factor of 64.2%.

March 2004 LF was 73.6
April 2004 LF was 76.2



[Edited 2004-05-11 21:56:59]
 
7e72004
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 4:50 am

thanks for that summary  Smile seems like they are doing pretty good...it will be interesting to see what happens when they do the "1st expansion."  Big thumbs up
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FLAIRPORT
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 4:56 am

for those of us who do not know load % very well, how is that? How does it compare to WN normal loads? Is that good for day 1?
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SWAFA30
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 4:59 am

for those of us who do not know load % very well, how is that? How does it compare to WN normal loads? Is that good for day 1?


For comparison sake WN posted a 2nd quarter profit on a quarterly system load factor of 64.2%. March 2004 LF was 73.6%, April 2004 LF was 76.2%.
 
capitol8s
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 5:00 am

Looks like WN will do well at PHL

Were there any major problems for the WN PHL ops with all the wx and ground stops due to flow control into PHL on 5/9 which I believe was inaugural day for WN ???
"Happiness is a flight on a Capitol Air DC-10"
 
7e72004
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 5:01 am

In my opinion even if there are ground stops, etc...Southwest can still load and unload a plane in 20-30 minutes...the flight itself may not take off on time...but turnaround times, in my opinion, deal with how fast a plane can be prepped once in the gate and then turned around for departure.
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zrb2
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 5:12 am

From an article in todays Washington Post:

"Still the airport (PHL) has more work to be done. Its runways are too close together for Southwest to maintain its 20-minute flight turnarounds, says John Minor, head of Southwest's Philadelphia operations.
That means Southwest won't be able to operate simultaneous takeoffs and landings. So the carrier is working with the airport to build parallel runways. In the meantime, Minor said, the airline built in extra time between flights."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15953-2004May10_2.html
 
7e72004
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 5:17 am

One question: WHere could they possibly build a parallel runway at PHL??
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PHLBOS
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 5:53 am

One question: WHere could they possibly build a parallel runway at PHL??

There presently is one conceptual plan that would involve modifying Hog Island Road (yet again) and relocating UPS in an effort to aquire more land for an additional parallel runway. There would also be some landfilling involved.

Extending 8-26 eatward is out due to the Goliath crane at the neighboring Kavaerner Shipyard. The height of the crane would penetrate the imaginary (Part 77) aircraft approach surface if the runway were extended.

[Edited 2004-05-11 22:56:14]
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InnocuousFox
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 6:02 am

I'm dying to know how the runway config affects the 20 minute turn.
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7e72004
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 6:07 am

good question...i was wondering the same thing  Smile
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PHLBOS
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 6:17 am

The parallel runways are currently spaced too close together for simultaneous take-offs and landings.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 6:25 am

"The parallel runways are currently spaced too close together for simultaneous take-offs and landings."

I understand that... but that has nothing to do with turning the aircraft. Park/unload/clean/load/push - done.
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DeltaMD11
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 6:32 am

Obviously you don't get to PHL much Innocuous. You park, unload, clean, load, push, and then sit on the ground while you literally have a traffic jam congregating on the taxiways with aircraft coming from 4 different directions trying to get to one runway. The use of runway 35 will be beneficial to WN's operation here, however they're still going to experience delays trying to get onto 27L.
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
SWAFA30
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 6:33 am

I'm dying to know how the runway config affects the 20 minute turn.

I've got the raw data but it will take some time to piece together the aircraft flows and construct the actual turn times for Sunday's flights. I'm headed out for the evening but I will try to work on it this evening and post the info late tonight or early tomorrow. An Ops agent or Dispatcher with OTIS access might be able to collectand post the data more quickly than I. If noone else chimes in I will see what I can do.
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 6:36 am

"and then sit on the ground while you literally have a traffic jam congregating on the taxiways with aircraft coming from 4 different directions trying to get to one runway."

I understand taxi delays. However, that is techincally NOT part of a 20 minute turn. The turnaround is the time between the arrival time and the departure time.

That IS one of the reasons, though, that WN avoided larger, more crowded airports whenever possible. For all airilines, longer taxi times are included in the published flight time - NOT in the turn time.
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DeltaMD11
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 6:43 am

Just to illustrate my point a little further, this is a picture (yes...it's out of focus just a tick but it gets my point across). This was late morning probably about 11:30 or so and it's far away from the big morning and evening pushes were it gets really hectic. There are about 4 aircraft that you can't even see in this shot that were in the queue to the left waiting to get out of here. Not to mention 27L begins at about where Terminal A East is and WN has to get all the way to 27L from Terminal D-the line of traffic to the left of the picture, that's what all WN birds will face trying to get out of here. Believe me, I do it often, you do spend a lot of time on the ground here at PHL waiting to get up there. I count 9 birds in that picture. 8 on the taxiways and one lined up to roll and theres four that you cant see which were to the left.

Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 6:47 am

And yet, that's not my point at all. The article seems to have used the incorrect term. (Didn't we just have a thread bitching about the media covering aviation?)
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SWAbubba
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 7:27 am

InnocuousFox-

You are correct. The turn times at PHL should be the standard 25-30 minutes just like the rest of the system. The planned flight times (which include taxi time) will be longer to compensate for the extra taxi time.
 
PHLapproach
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 8:06 am

A friend of mine "WindowSeat" told me that SFO's runways are very close, yet they are able to do simultaneous parallels. I guess there is just a tad more room between 28R and 28L at SFO then 27L and 27R at PHL.

Chris, Do you think if the "2020" plan to make the new runway on the left of 27L were to be completed, they would then switch approach traffic over to the "New 27L"?

Bryan, was that photo above, one from when you guys were over atop the A- West Garage? That photo does very much show how congested we are.
 
atrude777
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 8:22 am

I dont understand how having close parrallel runwats will not allow simutaneous landings? they will never criss cross and they can land at the same time? I would think itd be faster and more efficent to have those types then corssings because landing and takeoffs will never intercept each other. please explain why its bad.

Alex
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PHLBOS
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 8:41 am

Chris, Do you think if the "2020" plan to make the new runway on the left of 27L were to be completed, they would then switch approach traffic over to the "New 27L"?

Ed (PHLapproach),

I was able to fish out an old Philly Inquirer article showing the Parallel runway alternative. This might answer your question.

The plan calls for a new 10,000 foot runway built south of the existing 9R-27L. Construction of this runway would involve the relocation of UPS, relocation of the control tower, relocation of the airport's fuel facilities, placement of landfill, and either a realignment of Hog Island Road or H.I. Road would no longer be a continuous road.

If you plan to be at the May 23rd PHL spotters' meeting, I can bring the article and the diagram.
The plan also calls for a 1,500 ft. extension of the existing Runway 9R-27L and a relocation of existing Runway 9L-27R south of its present location. The existing 9L-27R would then become a taxiway.

The plan also calls for a 600 ft. northern and a 1,340 ft. southern extension of Runway 17-35.
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MD11LuxuryLinr
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 8:44 am

They do infact perform parallel approaches to 27R and 27L almost every night, when it gets really busy. Sometimes they're landing on 26 and the 27s at the same time. That's always fun to watch..

As far as simultaneous departures, why not? I know that all aircraft have to turn 15 degrees (at the most) to the south after departure off of the 27s, but the majority are turned to the N/NW to MXE and PTW anyway. Nowadays, there are many that turn to the south. 27R traffic can depart and turn north, while 27L traffic can turn south. I know it's a bit more complicated than that, but it was just a stupid thought.

If they do add another runway to the south of 27L, I think it would be a departure runway heading west and an approach runway to the east (like 9R/27L). The reason is they don't like traffic flying over land, be it in PA or NJ, when they are low, for noise reasons (ever hear a pilot request 9L and get refused? I have, many times always because of 'noise abatement'.). Another runway south of 27L would require traffic to fly over houses at low alt on approach, thus pissing people off. Departures to the west would still be over water for the most part.


Edited because I'm so stupid  Big grin




[Edited 2004-05-12 02:13:21]
Caution wake turbulence, you are following a heavy jet.
 
DeltaMD11
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 8:51 am

And that's why I have no pity for people that move in next door to airports and complain about noise. If it was my call I'd say tough shit.
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
PHLapproach
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 8:54 am

I see it the same way, Amen to that.  Smile
 
MD11LuxuryLinr
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 8:57 am

Heh.. My Grandmo lives about 2 miles from the airport. 27L arrivals fly directly over her house. She, like me, loves planes. She never complains about the noise (ok, she's partially deaf now). Neither do her neighbors.. I guess they're just used to it. I know that I'd NEVER complain.  Big grin
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as739x
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 9:11 am

Anyone know the seperation of the 2 runways? SFO is 750 ft., PHL can not be that much closer then that!

I'm lost on how this effects a 20 min. turn, last I checked that happened at the gate.

ASSFO
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DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 9:19 am

Preach it, Delta MD11. And thanks for the cool picture. I've sat in more than one US plane in a line like that one waiting for 9L. (Last time, there were 17 planes in line, at 9:30 on a good-weather night) Good to hear that Southwest's loads on day one at PHL were so good.

One alternative design featured at the PHL website shows two pairs of new parallel runways angled in a roughly 13-31 configuration. One set would overlap the land of the current 9-27's. The others would go over 35 and the current location of Terminal F, a replacement for which would presumably be built elsewhere. That seems to me to be the ideal runway plan, but it's probably a lot more expensive than the one MD11LuxuryLinr described. Either way, PHL needs a widely-spaced mainline a/c runway as soon as they can get one.

Jim
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PHLapproach
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 9:55 am

Chris, I knew all that info on the project and I have seen diagrams. But I would love to see that article very much.

I just spent 10 mins looking for a post I made describing all 3 PHL expansion plans a while back, but the its not in the search page I get. O well

Yes, Jim that plan to create the four runways that are 130 - 310 would be very expensive, one reason all the terminals would have to be moved farther northwest and would be at the end of the "13" which would make them useless for traffic from the nothwest, I do wish this plan was true through so I could get approach traffic in for "13". But by then I'll be flying for the majors. These plans are called the "2020 project" obviously because they are to be completed by 2020, but for the one about the 4 new runways that probably wouldn't be done till 2040  Laugh out loud.

[Edited 2004-05-12 03:08:24]

[Edited 2004-05-12 03:10:00]
 
scottysair
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 10:15 am

I can tell you something about PVD flight and those load factors was only few people flight today and it is not enough for the customers need to get RJ flight.
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 11:45 am

SFO's runways (both pairs) are far closer than any other simultaneous pair in the country. From what I understand, they have a special exemption that allows them to perform parallel VISUAL approaches on them. Also, they do departures on the other pair.

One other complicating part of SFO's arrival pair is that the touchdown spots are lined up so the glide slopes are on the same plane. With PHL, there is enough of a stagger between the runways that there is some vertical separation as one aircraft is farther down the glideslope than the other is.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Aaron 747



PHL airport diagram
SFO airport diagram
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*HighFlyah*
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 11:55 am

Pardon me for raining on the parade, but isn't all that detailed load factor info on the first day of PHL ops at WN somewhat confidential and proprietary information? For your sake, SWAFA30, perhaps you should make sure that it is 100% ok to post this - wouldn't want management to crack down on you...
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 12:01 pm

(I don't think it would be... but I'm guessing)
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txagkuwait
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Wed May 12, 2004 1:34 pm

As far as traffic between PHL and PVD is concerned.....

Rome wasn't built in a day nor was BWI to PVD an instantaneous standing-room-only affair.....

USAirways has been carrying an average of 130 psgrs per day between these two points.

On 9 trips Sunday WN carried 550.

On Monday, thru 5 flights (with 5 left to go) they had carried 296.

Growing a market that has been stagnant for a long time because of really high prices (the average fare between the two was in excess of $300 each way...for a 238 mi flight)....takes a while.

So rather than comment that WN's traffic between the two cities appears light....one ought to stop and consider that with less then half the flights in the market, WN is carrying what appears to be over 4x the total O&D traffic that was there before they commenced service.

And it will only go up from there.

 
7e72004
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Thu May 13, 2004 1:11 am

When Southwest starts the new round of flights in July, will that put its four gates to capacity? If so, what if they want to add more flights?? I have a feeling that PHL is going to become a haven for Southwest planes  Big thumbs up
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ramerinianair
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Thu May 13, 2004 2:05 am

SWAFA30,
Can you get me the load factors for tues 5/11 and wed 5/12. I want to see this information because you have to average the week-ends which has high loads with the weekdays which have lower loads for a true read. Thanks
-S.R.
W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
 
PHLapproach
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Thu May 13, 2004 4:35 am

7E72004 - WN is currently only using 4 gates. But two years ago the city financed 4 additional gates to be built on at terminal E, the gates are expected to runs about 40 Mil and those four new gates will then bump up the gate usage to 40 flights a day.
 
usairways85
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Thu May 13, 2004 4:40 am

People have said that with the 4 gates WN currently has at PHL they can operate 40-45 flts. After their second increase in flts during July they will only have 28 flts.

As for expansion of terminal E. The airport is planning to add a rotunda at the end of E adding 3 more gates which i would expect to all go to WN.
 
COEWR2587
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Thu May 13, 2004 4:59 am

I'm glad WN is doing so well in Philly.
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7e72004
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Thu May 13, 2004 5:02 am

If they did have to relocate the terminal building to accomodate a new runway, wouldn't that cause a HUGE MESS?? THey just got done with the new international terminal, the F terminal is pretty new...it seems like it would be a waste. Is there empty land on the other side of the interstate (I-95)?
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US653
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Thu May 13, 2004 5:58 am

One thing about simultaneous landings at PHL. Someone may remember (or may be able to add as well) the new ATC system that the FAA installed here that will permit simultaneous landings. From what I understand, it requires specific conditions that I'm not sure about. I have see it in use 5 or 6 times.

Anyone have any additional info on this?

Jeff
US653...PHL-AUA...The best place in the Caribbean!!!
 
PHLapproach
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Thu May 13, 2004 6:44 am

Yea, I pretty sure it was STARS that PHL was the first to implement back in I think '99 (I think im wrong, can anyone recall the year) I remember we had major problems with it. I did see simultaneous parallel for a hour about a month ago.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Thu May 13, 2004 6:59 am

If they did have to relocate the terminal building to accomodate a new runway, wouldn't that cause a HUGE MESS?? THey just got done with the new international terminal, the F terminal is pretty new...it seems like it would be a waste. Is there empty land on the other side of the interstate (I-95)?

Across I-95 to the north and west is the Senator John Heinz Wildlife Refuge, a big wetland. Which is why, I imagine, they didn't just buy that empty land and build a third 9-27 runway over there years ago. (Philly experts please correct me if wrong) The environmental extremists would suffer head explosions if anyone suggested a land-buy trade--buy wetland elsewhere to set aside in exchange for building on the Heinz land.

So whatever's done, probably has to be done south of I-95. Terminal F would probably have to be moved to midfield somewhere in the scenario I described. The new int'l terminal would be unaffected.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Thu May 13, 2004 7:36 am

Allow me to chime in with regards to the diagonal runway alternative from the 2020 project:

1. 2 new runways (11L-29R and 11R-27L) would be built southwest and northeast of the existing terminals.

2. Terminals B through F would be replaced with a tier-concourse arrangement similar to ATL as well as what MWAA is proposing at IAD. These new terminals would be connected be an underground APM system; again, similar to ATL.

3. Runway 8-26 would be demoted to a taxiway. I'm not clear as towards whether Runway 17-35, 9L-27R and/or 9R-27L would survive or be demoted to taxiways. This wouldn't be the first time this happened; Taxiway D4 & E4 were, at one time Runway 4-22. Back then the old runway extended into the present commuter aircraft apron is.

In addition to tearing down the terminals, the main issue is the noise from the new runways over Delaware County; and we're not just talking Tinicum here. We're talking about Swarthmore, Springfield, Ridley Park, Wallingford, Nether Providence. Many of these towns are a little more wealthier than Tinicum and have more political clout in Delaware County.

As I stated in an earlier thread a month ago. The public hearings turned out to be a PR nightmare for DOA, FAA, and the DVRPC (Delaware Valley Regional Planning Commission) especially in reference to the diagonal runway proposal. There were several public meetings held throughout the Delaware Valley, however, not one meeting was held in Delaware County, Pennsylvania (where the changes would impact the most). The closest meeting to them was held in Wilmington, Delaware (the state). Needless to say, many residents from the above-mentioned communities attended that meeting and let their thoughts be heard...rather loudly.

In a nutshell, while the diagonal concept was thinking 'outside the box'; what's outside the box could be this concept's downfall.

By the way, the current Runway 9L-27R and 9R-27L are spaced 1400 feet apart; too close to conduct simultaneous landings which can contribute to flight delays.

Just my 2 cents.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
usairways85
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Thu May 13, 2004 8:32 am

The more likely project is building the 3rd parallel runway partially in the Delaware. Building the diagonal runways is a logistics nightmare: attempting to transfer traffic from the current terminals to what would be the new island terminals, and building the island terminals on land that is now comprised of runways and taxiways. I can imagine the project would take well over 20 years to complete.
 
7e72004
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Thu May 13, 2004 9:45 pm

I don't see that happening...wouldn't the cheaper and more logical way be to turn PNE into a commercial service airport again?
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Fri May 14, 2004 1:41 am

I don't see that happening...wouldn't the cheaper and more logical way be to turn PNE into a commercial service airport again?

The main issue here would be someone flying into PNE but their connecting flight is at PHL or vice-cersa. While the 2 airports are only 15 nm apart (as the crow flies), driving miles is about 20-25 because of the road configuration plus the traffic along I-95, particularly north of Center City (portions of I-95 in this area are presently under construction) can turn a normally 30 minute trip into a 1 to 1 1/2 trek.

Should commercial/commuter service were ever to return at PNE; it flights would most likely be used for O/D only.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
7e72004
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RE: Southwest PHL Loads

Fri May 14, 2004 2:33 am

i see what you are saying. can't they just start o/d at PNE..it has been done before with other airports when a second one gets built.
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