Unique
Topic Author
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Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Sat May 15, 2004 5:49 am

AR has requested ZRH airport slots for the whole month of October 2004 as follows:

AR1136/AR1137, B733, ex EZE/MAD 1010 1125 to MAD/EZE (Fridays)
AR1134/AR1135, B733, ex EZE/MAD 1740 1840 to MAD/EZE (Wed/Sat)

I'm aware that the flight EZE-MAD-EZE will not be operated by B733's and that AR will most probably base planes at MAD, but the only B737's AR have are of the 200-series.

Or am I that wrong?

Thanks for clarification!
 
Bofredrik
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Sat May 15, 2004 5:57 am

Maybe they use this if they can? A very WILD guess...

737-287 LV-JTD Executive version/Aerolineas Argentinas
 
Unique
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Sat May 15, 2004 5:58 am

Well, the slot request clearly states B733
 
DoorsToManual
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Sat May 15, 2004 6:06 am

AR started flying about 2 years ago ex-MD), Spain">MAD to LGW and CDG with its own MD-88s, the idea behind this was apparently to earn as much foreign currency as possible. AR then contracted the route to a Spanish airline.

If I'm not mistaken, that airline is Air Plus Comet (?) and they were the first airline to order winglets for their 733. The a/c is in basic AR livery, but I believe it is basically a wet-lease agreement between AR and this Spanish airline.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. I guess AR don't believe they can fill enough seats using their own widebody equipment.

regards
 
IBERIA747
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Sat May 15, 2004 6:40 am

The MAD-ZRH flight is supposed to be operated by an Air Plus Comet 733. The same goes for the codeshare flights between MAD and LGW, the only difference being that those are operated with an A310.

Remember that both Air Plus Comet and Aerolineas Argentinas belong to the same Spanish company: Grupo Marsans.

Saludos
¡¡VIVA ESPAÑA!!
 
LVZXV
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Sat May 15, 2004 10:28 am

The addition of ZRH from MAD won't be much of a headache. It's just an extension of the successful hub and spoke model being used by Argentina in Europe--passenger numbers to London, Paris, Milan, Frankfurt, Zurich etc. just aren't what they were from the 1970s to the 1990s. And passengers are gradually adjusting to one stop flights or change of aircraft. There's no denying a flight from EZE to any European capital bar Madrid is mind numbingly boring and expensive. That said, while AR continues to operate 5 B747-200s, only one flies to Madrid on a daily basis and another occasionally flies to Miami. Considering none are undergoing D-Checks (4 of them just have, the last will soon follow), it is an incredibly idle and underused fleet, yet at the time of purchase the demand was there. Today, if a 252-seat A340-200 satisfies demand to Rome with 6 weekly flights, and JFK with 4 weekly services, then I guess the numbers just don't merit the 747-200 to cities like Zürich. A shame, but bear in mind that the 747 is evolving into an unsuitable airliner for the majority of operators on the American continent, the US included. AR is going to need their 744s to boost the Madrid service and cover the long onward connections to China and Japan, but on the whole, demand is rising for a) hub and spoke and b) A330/A340s, B767s and B777s in the Americas.
And yes, "733" refers to EC-IPS, Air Plus Comet's wingleted 733, although 8 735s are about to join AR.
Saludos,

XV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
Guest

RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Sat May 15, 2004 10:50 am

Sorry if I'm asking a dumb question, but I really got no up-to-date info on it... What are AR's European destinations out of EZE right now? (not counting LGW and ZRH).
 
Arcano
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Sat May 15, 2004 11:02 am

Yes, indeed APComet looks almost like AR:

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And let me ask this is pretty much like the drawings I've seen of AR operation in Chile ("Aerolineas del Sur").
What happend to Athens and Cairo?
XV: there is something I still don't understand: why AR is extending flight to Asia? is there a large demand from China and Japan to BsAs?

Saludos )( Arcano
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HB-IWC
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Sat May 15, 2004 12:50 pm

This move is obviously a response to Swiss's closing EZE a couple of weeks ago. Anybody knows whom Swiss is codesharing with on GRU-EZE now that they only operate terminator service to GRU? Or did they drop EZE as a station altogether?

 
Guest

RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Sat May 15, 2004 7:36 pm

I flew with Air Comet Plus last week LGW-MAD-LGW, and I fond it an excellent and CHEAP alternative to BA and IB. Only £75 return - purchased 3 days prior to flight and TOP air hostesses. I have heard they only hire very pretty girls! It seems to be true. The only thing I didn't like was the boarding time as 1 hour before the flight - especially as we all walked to the gate at LG to see the incoming flight hadn't yet arrived. The A310 is very nice - and no reverse thrust needed!

a
 
planeguy
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Sun May 16, 2004 2:39 am

HB-IWC,

I believe LX is codesharing with TAM on the EZE-GRU leg though I may stand corrected. Anyone out there able to confirm this?

 
LVZXV
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Sun May 16, 2004 6:36 am

HB-IWC:

LX, like KL, is codesharing with JJ for the GRU-EZE leg. If you've got miles on LX they'll include the codeshared leg with JJ, so really it's less hassle than you may think. Still, it's another MD-11 gone from EZE...

PU151:

From EZE to Europe you have:

Madrid (2 daily frequencies, one w/ 742, the other w/ 744)
Rome (6 weekly frequencies, w/ A342)

Direct connections w/ Air Plus Comet include LGW, CDG, and MXP, but you can also fly on to anywhere in Spain or the Canaries, Dusseldorf, Frankfurt, Malmo, Copenhagen, Stockholm, Vienna, and shortly, Moscow.

Arcano:

I feel like hiding under the table every time someone asks me about the status of the Mediterranean/Middle Eastern routes. I honestly DON'T KNOW, but the fact that operating the MD-88 in Europe was not viable might lead to a change of plans, since the hub was meant to be Athens (no Air Plus Comet there!), so there is a strong chance that ALL the proposed destinations will be operated from, you guessed it, MADRID!!!
As for China, Argentina is beginning to look in that direction. Exports to China were up 144% in 2003, and with Europe and North America's doors not as open to Argentine products as they used to be, Argentina is looking more to Turkey, Russia, the CIS, China and Japan. It could prove to be a smart move...

XV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
SouthernCRJ
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Mon May 17, 2004 11:28 am

LVZXV:

Some corrections:

AR has 5 747-200 and 1 747-400 in service. In total, 4 of the 747-200 and the sole 747-400 are in use (actually, all of them are usually operated, but only four are required to cover their schedules). Your frequencies are incorrect. AR has only four weekly flights to FCO, all using A340s as you said. They have twelve weekly flights to MD), Spain">MAD, of which four are flown by the 747-400, and eight by the 747-200s. Furthermore, there are five weekly flights to MIA, of which two are scheduled to be operated by 747-200s, although the other three flights sometimes switch from A340 to 747-200s too.

A complete EZE - MD), Spain">MAD - EZE flight cannot be done in less than 24 hours, thus the need for 747s is much higher than you guessed. The 747-400s schedule is the most AR can get out of this plane. For the other flights to MD), Spain">MAD, AT LEAST two further 747-200 are needed. A further 747-200 is needed for the MIA flights. A fourth 747-200 is also used as a backup and eventually for additional MIA and JFK flights, since only three A340s are in service between May and September (they are going through D-checks one by one) and if one of those three has a problem, there wouldn't be any spare except one of those 747s. With four 747-200s and a 747-400, AR has a somewhat comfortable schedule, however, three 747-200s wouldn't be enough. They could do with one 747-200 less, and in fact, LV-OOZ is leaving for Air Plus (which intends to return EC-IPN) and LV-MLP is going to Aerolíneas del Sur, while AR will only get one further 747-400 for now.

Furthermore, the additional A340 and the eight 737-500 are clearly OFF THE TABLE for some weeks now. Expect maybe a 747-400, a MD-83 (could be two), probably for AU, and, MAYBE, a second A310 for December.


Best Regards

 
paulc
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Mon May 17, 2004 5:31 pm

In 1996 I did EZE-MAD-LHR and the MAD-LHR sector was on a Viva Air 737-3
English First, British Second, european Never!
 
LVZXV
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Tue May 18, 2004 8:24 am

SouthernCRJ:

You see, this is what I find ridiculous: why AR has to fumble around with its fleet so much. One by one, I'll explain what I mean:

B732s LV-JND, JTO, LEB appear to still be in service (a picture recently taken at EZE by Mario Aguirre shows JTO missing parts, but was apparently undergoing an inspection and is still in service). All were due for retirement last month, and are aged 33.8, 32.5 and 31.6 respectively.

B742 LV-MLP going to Aerolineas del Sur, fair enough. What I don't understand is the swap of AR's flambuoyantly-painted LV-OOZ with EC-IPN of Air Plus (formerly LV-YPC). It's not like the aircraft is any younger or anything. Seems like a waste of paint to me.

What fiasco NOW has developed over the 735s? Weren't they at least paid for or did Marsans choose to "Mañana" that move? It's getting absurd. The CFM-powered 737s are needed before one of AR's more elderly 732s gives up the ghost at a rather unconvenient time (even WSY and WTX are bursting at the seams; check out the patchwork...).

Since you seem better informed than me on AR, can you enlighten me as to what on Earth is going on with AR's supposed "fleet rennovation" programme? It's getting tiresomely frustrating!

XV

P.S. If you know anything about "Southern", do you know what their fleet plans are? Work is going on around the ex-MJ 732 LV-YZA, while YBS has been mysteriously WFU (only flew 6 months). Is it true they are also seeking a 762 or a pair of 742s?

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
ContinentalEWR
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Tue May 18, 2004 8:56 am

AR is probably trying to grab whatever business is out there now that LX has or will drop the EZE-GRU-ZRH route, and focus on GRU-ZRH.

ContinentalEWR
 
Horus
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Tue May 18, 2004 8:59 am

LVZXV, heard anything about their plans for CAI and N.Africa yet?
EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
LVZXV
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Tue May 18, 2004 8:59 am

ContinentalEWR:

LX dropped the route on 26/03/04. GRU-EZE-GRU is now codeshared with JJ.

XV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
SouthernCRJ
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Tue May 18, 2004 12:05 pm

LVZXV:

Well, it seems they changed their plans: LV-MLP is apparently going to stay with AR. LV-OOZ is soon leaving AR for Air Plus Comet, which in turn is giving their 747 (EC-IPN) to Aerolíneas del Sur. A much better solution if you ask me...
The eight 737-500 they intended to lease were actually for sale, and LH didn't want to lease them. They were sold to a Chinese carrier.

As to the fleet renovation plan, there never was any...just some loose intentions to buy some planes.

It's still a mistery what they will replace the three or four retired 737-200s with.

I know it's frustrating...believe it when you see it.
As to SW, no news.


Best regards
 
Arcano
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Tue May 18, 2004 1:41 pm

XV: I still don't get it, I understand the interest of Argentina in getting close relation with Asia, bus does it justify NOW a flight?
Not sure about the numbers, but I guess Chile has stronger business relations with China than Argentina, but I don't think there is enough demand for a flight, maybe after the FTA, but even there... we have 1 with South Korea and it didn't bring direct flights.

I know, you can tell me in Buenos Aires you have as many people as in whole Chile, but still, it just doesn't feel profitable to start flying to China and Japan.

I give you an example: even when probably enough Chilean flies weekly to Asia for LAN filling and aircraft, sometimes 1 flight per week is not a good product to sell, as it's always better just to offer variety instead of direct flights; and probably it's is much profitable for LAN to make their passengers fly and change airline in LAX than to offer 1 direct flight, let's say on Saturday.
In this example, LAN would face the competition of American, ANA or any airline that offers daily flights LAX-PEK or NRT. In the way they are doing now, LAN sells tickets for every day of the week and has nothing to worry about convincing the passengers to fly on Saturdays only. This is why I think this type of services doesn't work too well on a weekly basis.

Isn't this the same that could happen with the idea of AR to these markets?

)(
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
Argentina
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Tue May 18, 2004 10:59 pm

I think AR is looking for traffic to/from Madrid and when they say a flight EZE-MAD-PEK, it means two different flights, and two different products EZE-MAD and MAD-PEK. Anybody thinks AR will sell many EZE-PEK or PEK-EZE tickets?

Remember when they announced plans for EZE-MAD-TUN, EZE-MAD-CAI or EZE-MAD-ATH, to say a few. Aren't those ideas the movements to put A7 on the air, and taking that airline to other markets, that is into Africa, or Greece? All those short haul flights from MAD are intended to be made with A7 aircraft. Anybody thinks they are thinking of an Aerolineas expansion? Who is thinking of the passenger from EZE there? Please guys, think of the business behind this... Same goes for ZRH flights...and it goes on....
 
TBCITDG
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Wed May 19, 2004 6:08 am

Personally the model that AR uses out of MAD is very smart. They can utilize all of the feeder traffic that it receives from the 737's that fly in and out of all the other European destinations. There would be no point in sending a 744 all the way to London or to Zurich as the capacity is just not there. And on the other hand, AR is taking the advantage of offering AR as a low cost alternative to many other carries that serve those destinations. I have heard many times in London, people who fly AR because the offer cheap seats. I am sure this is why AR is also looking at other destinations through out Europe. Taking as much advantage of the Euro. All these passengers may not be flying all the way to EZE, but they are willing to fly with AR locally. Just as is the case in AKL.
There was a front page newspaper article here a couple of weeks ago that compared trans Tasman flights. And AR along with other carriers that don't have daily scheduled flights to NZ and AUS offer the cheapest tickets! At one stage they offered a return ticket for $290 Far cheaper than QF or ANZ!?!?!?
As for destinations such as PEK, I know of a lot of Chinese/Koreans that migrated to Argentina during the 90's. This may not justify a whole 744 flying directly to PEK, but I am sure that the via MAD sector helps. Especially changing it to a 733 out of MAD. I am sure that the 'cargo' side of things help.
A lot of people question AR's move to expand into these 'far fetched' destinations, but one must remember that they will utilize MAD as their hub. Feeder traffic both ways. At the very least, AR will offer cheap tickets between MAD and other European cities, obviously helping their bottom line!
 
LVZXV
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Wed May 19, 2004 8:39 am

Arcano:

Tal cual. It would make more sense for Chile to start the route than for Argentina. Plus, demographically, most of Argentina's admittedly massive Chinese and Korean (North and South) populations are working class, so the rationale clearly isn't one of "cultural exchange" since few could ever dream of affording the air fare.
No, as has been pointed out, AR is going head to head with the carriers who operate to/from Madrid to Peking and Shanghai. Smart move, and it's not like there are many other places AR's 747 fleet can fly to. IMHO, they should be exploiting routes such as CPT and JNB for one--give SA and MH a run for their money--maybe Canada too. I've said before that AR should open up Tel Aviv, and get on with their Mediterranean and Middle Eastern destinations like Athens, Beirut, Cairo, Dubai, Istanbul and Tunis. To answer your question Horus, I still don't know any dates. If you look on AR's website, you'll see that the only concrete addition to the list of destinations has been Bogota, as passengers start booking for the June 4 inauguration. The flights to China were due to be launched on May 28, but I sense delays there too.
AR really has to start joining alliances, however. It's priority should be a modest fleet rennovation programme to replace the remaining "over 25s" in the fleet (5 732s, that is), regaining CAT I status (A4 has to get its act together too, and for goodness sake, agree on a uniform livery for their small fleet), and maybe then form alliances with more European, North American and maybe some Asian alliances too. AR has to "poner sus pilas".

XV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
LVZXV
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Wed May 19, 2004 9:11 am

SouthernCRJ:

Hadn't AR specifically set aside US$87.5 million for the lease of:

1 A310-300
1 A340-200
8 B737-500s
3 B747-400s
2 MD-83s

??? If the deal with LH fell through, will AR continue to seek CFM-powered 737s of some sort or continue to stretch the 732s?

BTW, how come the 742 LV-MLO hasn't been officially "dado de baja"? It's still on AR fleet lists, even if it's missing more parts by the day. Any chance of freighter conversion or preservation, or probably just cannibalization followed by chop?

XV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
Horus
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Wed May 19, 2004 9:27 am

Where are their B744s flying?
EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
LVZXV
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Thu May 20, 2004 4:43 am

EZE-MAD-EZE once a day, probably not every day. AR's flight schedules usually say "CHG" for aircraft on the Madrid route, so I guess if ever a 742 falls u/s or the 744 does so, then the aircraft can change. As Southern CRJ has said, 4 of the 5 742s are usually operational plus the sole 744, so those are normally the odds. The 744 for now flies nowhere else.

XV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
TBCITDG
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Thu May 20, 2004 10:04 am

I am sure that they would take the 744 off the EZE-MAD route during the Northern Winter and place it on the very popular (particularly Southern Summer) EZE-AKL-SYD route.
LVZXV: I totally agree with you, I think that they should consider Tel Aviv. Did AR ever fly there in the past? I wonder why there is talk of Cairo opening up instead of Tel Aviv??!?!

As for Beijing, when QF was used to serve EZE, there where a number of Asian passengers that flew to Asia via SYD. Sure this did no justify a plane load flying there directly, but as stated before, AR's model to exploit the big carriers(especially IB) that serve these cities from MAD will prove to be a smart move!
 
Argentina
Posts: 325
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Thu May 20, 2004 10:00 pm


B744 operates one day from EZE, the next day from MAD. So alternatively, some weeks it operates from EZE on Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays and Sundays, and other weeks Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays.

THU 20MAY AR1134 EZEMAD
FRI 21MAY AR1135 MADEZE
SAT 22MAY AR1132 EZEMAD
SUN 23MAY AR1133 MADEZE
MON 24MAY AR1132 EZEMAD
TUE 25MAY AR1133 MADEZE
WED 26MAY AR1132 EZEMAD
THU 27MAY AR1133 MADEZE
FRI 28MAY AR1134 EZEMAD
SAT 29MAY AR1135 MADEZE
SUN 30MAY AR1134 EZEMAD
MON 31MAY AR1135 MADEZE

As far as I know, the only real movements in the fleet is one MD83 coming from Finnair. B737-500's negotiation was dropped. No news by now about next B747-400 and A310-300. Regarding additional A340, no one will come in in replacemnet of the one that will be lacking from end of May till beginning of December. Between these dates, the whole A340-200 fleet is entering into major maintenance, one by one, so the avaliable fleet of this aircraft will be 3 instead of 4. This made AR change schedules for USA routes as follows:

Till now:

EZEMIA: 5 weekly A340 flights
EZEJFK: 3 weekly A340 flights

From now:

EZEMIA: 2 weekly A340 flights
EZEMIAJFK: 1 weekly A340 flight + 1 weekly B742 flight
EZEJFK: 1 weekly A340 flight







 
swissgabe
Posts: 5147
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Fri May 21, 2004 12:31 am

Well, that would be pretty cool to see another exotic carrier in ZRH, especially with a shorthaul plane ...!
Smooth as silk - Royal Orchid Service /// Suid-Afrikaanse Lugdiens - Springbok
 
AeroArgentina
Posts: 190
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Fri May 21, 2004 3:49 am


EZEMIA: 2 weekly A340 flights
EZEMIAJFK: 1 weekly A340 flight + 1 weekly B742 flight
EZEJFK: 1 weekly A340 flight

I don't see how AR can compete with this schedule to the US? AA offers double daily from MIA, daily from JFK, and daily from DFW (maybe ORD but I'm not sure). They want to start an airline in Chile but they have miserable frequencies on their routes from Arg. I know Arg in cat II but I think AR should focus on Argentina and then expand. Just my opinion.

 
Derico
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Fri May 21, 2004 3:57 am

Quote by AeroArgentina #29:

I don't see how AR can compete with this schedule to the US? AA offers double daily from MIA, daily from JFK, and daily from DFW (maybe ORD but I'm not sure). They want to start an airline in Chile but they have miserable frequencies on their routes from Arg. I know Arg in cat II but I think AR should focus on Argentina and then expand. Just my opinion.



Maybe because it's not competition as much as lower fares, which AR still provides (at least they still were 8 weeks ago). And from Argentina it is still cheaper than AA probably, and for those type of passengers schedule flexibility is not the main issue.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
LVZXV
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Sat May 22, 2004 4:58 am

AeroArgentina:

Competition is not so much the name of the game on US routes--Argentina is CAT II remember so that kinda gives AA the edge (UA is quite easy to beat--daily service IAD-EZE-MVD-EZE-IAD, no more MIA, JFK or ORD, but ORD is coming back I think...). Most Argentines will prefer to fly AR to MIA or JFK and most "Yanquis" will probably take AA--to JFK, MIA or DFW, and UA to IAD. A lot of Argentines tell me they are not very well treated on the US carriers--maybe a sort of superiority complex or something, but that could just as well come from both sides...

XV


How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
Derico
Posts: 4206
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Sat May 22, 2004 5:03 am

Hola LVZXV,

When is CATI comming back, do you know??
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
LVZXV
Posts: 1729
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Sat May 22, 2004 8:54 am

I'd be lying Derico if I could tell you with any certainty. I'm sure the aim is pre-2005, but in any case, it's not like AR can send much more than it has to the US, and with only one 763ER, Southern Winds has its hands tied with 3 weekly frequencies to Madrid, so really, there's no need to rush!

TBCITDG:

How about EZE-CAI-TLV with an A342? Can it reach? If not, stop in Tunis on the way!

XV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
Derico
Posts: 4206
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 9:14 am

RE: Aerolineas Argentinas To Serve ZRH - With B737!

Sat May 22, 2004 11:53 pm

I think they should rush it anyways... there was no need to rush about energy production a year ago either  Big grin
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down

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