747firstclass
Topic Author
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UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Fri May 21, 2004 4:01 am

I was just making reservation on UA from IAD-DEN for July 13 and return July 20. By accident I typed in DCA instead of IAD. To my astonishment, I saw that UaAwill be having 2 nonstops from DCA-DEN on July 13. I have no idea when that serive starts or even UA is able to operate that flights as it is outside the perimeter rule at DCA and I didnt think they had permission to do it.
Also, in a very brief search of return flights I did not find a nonstop DEN-DCA flight. However, I plan to search some more. Is there anybody out there who can shed light and details on this rather interesting development. Many thanks.
 
MAH4546
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Fri May 21, 2004 4:07 am

a.
 
frugalqxnwa
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Fri May 21, 2004 4:09 am

F9 has been operating nonstop DCA-DEN service for quite some time now, and I am glad to see UA finally being able to do the same. I do not know the exact reasoning for limiting airlines to the perimiter out of DCA, whether political or practical, but the 757, A320, A319, and 737NG should be able to go transcon from DCA no problem.
 
iowaman
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Fri May 21, 2004 4:10 am

747firstclass,

United flight 484 leaves DEN at 10:15. Are you willing to fly F9? They have 3 non-stops to DCA.
 
gigneil
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Fri May 21, 2004 4:12 am

DCA, whether political or practical, but the 757, A320, A319, and 737NG should be able to go transcon from DCA no problem.

Political.

Its designed to redirect most traffic to IAD.

N
 
frugalqxnwa
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Fri May 21, 2004 4:16 am

Gigneil,

Thanks. I always love finding out more about how our buraucracy works.
 
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mariner
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Fri May 21, 2004 4:17 am

Frugal:

The perimeter rule was introduced to "protect" IAD and enable it to develop for longer hauls.

However, some "beyond perimeter" flying was introduced about three years ago (six r/t flights, from memory).

Then, earlier this year, Congress voted to allow another six (?) beyond perimeter r/t's.

UAL ws granted one r/t DEN/DCA and Frontier was granted another two r/t DEN/DCA for a total of three.

Alaska was given one r/t LAX/DCA and one additional r/t SEA/DCA. America West was given one additional r/t PHX/DCA.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
planespotting
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Fri May 21, 2004 5:11 am

what is considered "perimeter" around DCA?
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
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mariner
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Fri May 21, 2004 5:13 am

As it says in the UAL press release, the perimeter is 1250 miles.

Anything less than that is "within perimeter". Anything more is "beyond perimeter".

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Fri May 21, 2004 5:23 am

DCA is much more convenient for the business/institutional traveler. Since there is such a commuter corridor along the east coast, they wanted to make DCA more specifically available for those types of travlers. If they went to IAD, it would be less worth it for those people to fly in the first place.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
airtran737
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Fri May 21, 2004 5:30 am

Good to see that UA got those slots. Anyone have and O&D numbers on the route? I'm sure that theyre decent or UA wouldn't do it.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
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mariner
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Fri May 21, 2004 6:02 am

AirTran:

DEN/DCA is a terrific route for Frontier, the 1 x daily flight is usually sold out.

So it will be interesting to see what happens when UAL starts - 1 x daily - and Frontier goes to 3 x daily.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
SESGDL
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Fri May 21, 2004 10:39 am

DL also received slots for its SLC-DCA route which was introduced a while ago.

Jeremy
 
F9Fan
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Fri May 21, 2004 11:00 am

The perimeter restriction around DCA is 1500 nm. This is just far enough to take in MIA, MSP, STL, MCI, DFW and IAH. There are also slot and time restrictions to regulate noise. You also have the restricted airspace above the White House making approaches rather tricky. There are also noise abatement procedures for the residents of Arlington and Alexandria in Virginia as well as parts of the District of Columbia and Maryland.

I think we owe a lot to Senator McCain for helping relax the perimeter restrictions. After all, how do you think PHX got those non-stops?  Wink/being sarcastic

F9Fan
 
F9Widebody
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Fri May 21, 2004 11:49 am

Slightly off topic, but does anyone know if the approach traffic still comes straight over the Lincoln Memorial? I was there in '02 and it was the coolest thing at night - you would say this haze on the roofline, then a roar and a plane would come soaring over.

Regards
YES URLS in signature!!!
 
ual777contrail
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Fri May 21, 2004 11:51 am

Looking forward to seeing how this route goes, a 757 DEN-DCA will be nice.

Nice to see another F9 route UAL will enter.

UAL 777 CONTRAIL
 
Airportguy1971
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Fri May 21, 2004 12:15 pm

Nice to see another F9 route UAL will enter.

True just like the Mexican markets. UAL is indeed playing follow the leader!
 
roseflyer
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Fri May 21, 2004 12:21 pm

F9Fan, the DCA perimeter is 1250miles. You might be confusing it with the LGA perimeter, which is 1500 miles (no perimeter extensions, except for on Saturdays). All those destinations are within 1250 miles. DFW is close, but just under.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
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mariner
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Fri May 21, 2004 12:28 pm

Roseflyer:

"no perimeter exemptions.."

If you mean LGA, there is actually one exemption. Both F9 and UAL fly DEN/LGA which is over 1600 miles.

It's a somewhat complex story of how it came to be, but it involves a "grandfather" clause. I've never quite understood it.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
gigneil
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Fri May 21, 2004 6:01 pm

The main reason is that DEN was within range of the planes most people were flying at the time.

N
 
ord
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Fri May 21, 2004 10:52 pm

"UAL is indeed playing follow the leader!"

This is hardly true. United applied for the DEN-DCA slots the first go-around many years ago, but Frontier got the slots because the preference was to give them to smaller carriers (i.e. Frontier, America West, Midwest, etc.).

 
ScottB
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Sat May 22, 2004 4:18 am

"If you mean LGA, there is actually one exemption. Both F9 and UAL fly DEN/LGA which is over 1600 miles"

DEN is exempted from the perimeter; however, the perimeter rule at LGA does not apply on Saturday.
 
ual777contrail
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Sat May 22, 2004 4:27 am

AIRPORTGUY71,
Not follow the leader, another route at which a legacy carrier takes back market share.

/ / / / / / U N I T E D
 
frugalqxnwa
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Sat May 22, 2004 4:28 am

Back to the perimiter thing...

The commuter traffic at DCA is great, but there is probably already that much or more commuter traffic at IAD. The Washington metropolitan area is now more than large enough to support both airports without the perimiter around DCA, and it would be good for compitition if the perimiter were removed. The exemtion slots are a move in the right direction, and I am glad to see them.
 
jc2354
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Sat May 22, 2004 4:44 am

<"the perimeter rule at LGA does not apply on Saturday">

So, there could be Saturday only non-stop service between LGA and the West Coast, Puerto Rico, etc.?

If not now, then when?
 
DEN-HNL
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Sat May 22, 2004 8:10 am

@UAL777contrail

Great "legacy" there. Can't manage a dime and continuously getting bailed out by Uncle Sam.  Yeah sure
John Hancock
 
MSYtristar
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Sat May 22, 2004 8:32 am

People at UAL are sorely mistaken if they think that they are taking market share away from F9 on new, competing routes, whether they be mainline, Ted, express, whatever. F9 is not going anywhere UA so sorry to say.

F9 will soon have three daily DEN-DCA flights. I don't see one UA nonstop having much, if any, affect.


Steve/MSY
 
Airportguy1971
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Sat May 22, 2004 9:47 am

Goodness, did I touch a nerve. Not trying to tick anyone off. The original statement of Nice to see another F9 route UAL will enter. seemed to be just waiting for a resopnse. I could say the same thing about F9's almost daily full flights to IAD. Seems like the first carrier to fly the route is the leader. For whatever reason the routes were awarded to F9 in the first place. Same as the Mexican routes. Like it or not UA is playing catch up to F9 and for whatever reason there is little if any impact on the F9 load factors.
 
gigneil
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Sat May 22, 2004 9:53 am

So, there could be Saturday only non-stop service between LGA and the West Coast, Puerto Rico, etc.?


These services, in fact, do exist.

US and ATA both fly some, I believe.

N
 
cjuniel
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Sat May 22, 2004 9:57 am

MSYtristar,

You couldn't be MORE wrong. United is the #1 airline from Denver to the Washington, DC area. There are several flights daily from DEN-BWI, and just as many from DEN-IAD, including 2 777's. Flights in both markets are ROUTINELY full. It may not have MUCH effect, but for the many United frequent fliers in Denver who may be flying Frontier to DC solely because they operated the only nonstops into DCA, it gives them another option. United is using the largest aircraft allowed at DCA (757), and I GUARANTEE you, that flight will be full on a DAILY basis.
 
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mariner
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Sat May 22, 2004 10:19 am

Cjuniel:

The debate (argument?) is not whether UAL will do well - obviously it will do well on DEN/DCA, just as it does well on DEN/IAD and DEN/BWI.

The "debate" - such as it is - is about UAL "reclaiming market share" from Frontier.

UAL777CONTRAIL seems convinced that somehow Frontier is responsible for UAL's woes, and takes every opportunity he can to moan about this.

It seems to me to be pointless.

Just as UAL does well on the Washington, DC routes, so Fronter does exceptionally well on the same routes - DEN/DCA, DEN/IAD, and DEN/BWI.

Frontier's DEN/IAD route isn't even a month old, but the flights are routinely full or close to it.

The topic - originally - was to explain someone's surprise that UAL is now (or will be soon) flying DEN/DCA.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
MSYtristar
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Sat May 22, 2004 10:48 am

Cjuniel, huh? I never questioned UA's significant prescence in the DEN-D.C market. Re-read my post my friend.

To reiterate....

* F9 will have 3 DEN-DCA flights. UAL will have 1. And that 1 UAL flight will probably go out full....but so will F9's.


Steve/MSY
 
DCAYOW
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Sat May 22, 2004 10:52 am

The perimeter at DCA has been gradually increased over time. There was a time when Dallas and Minneapolis were not within the perimeter and that changed. Plus IAD no longer needs protection and is no longer among the farms of Chantilly.

The slot exemptions were introduced to bring in competition to an airport that had way too high fares. Airlines at DCA sat on gates/slots and got comfortable. I love United but they (like the others at DCA) had gouged the consumer for decades. New competitors like Frontier, AirTran, Alaska have shook up the market. And the thousands of passengers using DCA from the networks touched by these carriers have probably saved some money.

Retorne ao céu...
 
timz
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RE: DCA Perimeter

Mon May 24, 2004 5:47 am

(I'm not home now, so this is not guaranteed 100% correct, but should be close.)

IAD opened circa 1962 and scheduled jet flights at DCA started in 1966. In 1966 the perimeter rule started out at 650 miles (statute miles, probably) except that any destination that had nonstop flights at that time was allowed to retain them. Seems to me there were six such exemptions to the 650-mile rule; MSP may have been one of them.

But as I recall Dallas was not, which I guess means neither Braniff nor American was flying DCA-DAL nonstop in 1965. Apparently a DCA-DAL Electra couldn't compete with a jet out of IAD or BWI (or was it BAL then?).

(I'm guessing there was no perimeter rule before 1966, and even after 1966 the perimeter rule maybe only applied to jets.)

At some point the perimeter increased to 1000 (statute?) miles, and at some later point (late 1980s?) it reached 1250, that figure being chosen to encompass DFW and IAH.
 
FA4UA
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Mon May 24, 2004 4:27 pm

We're talking about traveling between two strong points for UA... DC area and DEN, where we are the dominant carrier in both metro areas. (Even more now with the addition of US to Star Alliance). F9 will do well, and most certainly UA will fill that 757. With all the connectivity United offers from DEN it will be a great addition.

I don't think 1 757 vs 3 Airbus is going to take over marketshare. UA will be able to command a premium over F9 since the loyal UA/US/Star fliers will be willing to pay a bit more for to accumulate more miles. F9 doesn't have this advantage, but they do have the leisure traveller targetted well.

just my two cents...

FA4UA
The debate continues... Starwood or Hyatt... which is better
 
ual777contrail
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Mon May 24, 2004 8:06 pm

MARINER,
"ual777contrail seems convinced that somehow F9 is responsible for UAL's woes, and moans about it as much as he can"?

don't be an ass mariner, and DONT put words into my mouth. I have never expressed interest in F9, I don't like the carrier and if it isn't them complaining about UAL and how mean they are. I never said they are responsible to UAL's woes, I wish UAL would stick it to them, and yes the 757 will take market share back. Giving UAL customers and first time flyers 3 options into the DC area is better than what F9 has to offer.

more seats into the DC area would make one think UAL is the dominant carrier, like ORD had said earlier, UAL isn't playing catch up, we are just now getting what we should have had a long time ago. But the little guys got the routes into DCA.

So in closing, stick to your little know and less cared for facts on F9, and not at putting words into my mouth.

UAL 777 CONTRAIL
 
MSYtristar
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Mon May 24, 2004 9:24 pm

UAL777, how will one flight "take market share back?" I'm just not convinced that that will happen. Sure, the service will entice loyal United customers who connect in ORD to get to DCA from DEN, but the increase in market share won't come at the expense of F9. Trust me. You will not see a decrease in loads on the DEN-DCA segment when the UA nonstop starts. The market is probably there for four flights anyway.

As for your comments on how you wish UA to "stick it to" F9, well, it has not happened yet (far from it actually), and I doubt it will happen in the future. No matter how much bitterness UA employees have towards towards F9 (and vice versa), both carriers are deeply rooted in DEN and each has its own target market. Who knows how things will pan out over the next few years, but I will say this, F9 will continue to grow and prosper.


Steve/MSY
 
gigneil
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Mon May 24, 2004 11:43 pm

I will, without question, pay a bit more to fly on the UA metal from DCA and not have to drive out to IAD and park.

N
 
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mariner
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Tue May 25, 2004 12:38 am

UAL777CONTRAIL:

I think you just proved my point - but what the hey?

I have tried to debate this rationally with you in the past, and I get nowhere. You have said your position is partly emotional, and I can't argue with that. No one can.

And I won't get into a flame war.

Have a nice day.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
ual777contrail
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RE: UA Nonstop DCA-DEN

Sun May 30, 2004 1:05 pm

Proved your point? Mariner you have proved nothing.

If it makes you feel better to think you have one up, have it. But make sense next time you try to prove a point.

UAL 777 CONTRAIL