FJWH
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Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sat May 22, 2004 9:53 pm

I don't get this picture:


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Photo © Steve Ruttley



Why does this plane got 3 engines?(in total 6 or?) Under the photo it says: "5th pod carried from Sydney to Singapore". I dont understand what the photographer mend by that so that maybe it. If you click the reg.number you get to see the same plane with normal 4 engines.
Can anyone please clear this up for me?

Thanks, FJWH

[Edited 2004-05-22 14:54:24]

[Edited 2004-05-22 14:56:48]
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speedbudgie
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sat May 22, 2004 9:56 pm

An extra engine can be ferried from one location to another attached to the wing of a 747. This engine is merely hitching a ride and is not functioning in any way. This is not a particularly common practice, but is a convenient way to get an engine from point A to point B.

speedbudgie
 
hoons90
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sat May 22, 2004 9:57 pm

The plane is ferrying a spare engine in order for another aircraft of the same airline to use it at that destination, incase a spare is needed...

Edit.. too late

[Edited 2004-05-22 14:58:24]
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greasespot
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sat May 22, 2004 10:00 pm

They are transporting a spare engine . That is how they can do it on the 747. Somewhere in the system they need a engine and use the 747 to carry it.

GS
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StevenUhl777
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sat May 22, 2004 11:13 pm

United Airlines used to do the exact same thing...maybe they still do, not sure.
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theflcowboy
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sat May 22, 2004 11:22 pm

Wasnt there a UA DC-10 years ago that had to make an emergency landing because of the 4th pod?
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jblake1
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sat May 22, 2004 11:32 pm

Wouldn't a extra engine that is not providing thrust create a lot of extra drag? Obviously not enough to prevent safe operation, but would I be right assume that the fuel burn rate would be significantly higher?
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sat May 22, 2004 11:46 pm

Obviously not enough to prevent safe operation, but would I be right assume that the fuel burn rate would be significantly higher?

Since an extra engine is carried very rarely and not part of standard opperation I think that, while fuel burn would be increased, it would be acceptable. There are not many ways to transport large turbofan engines, and if an aircraft is grounded because of powerplant issues, it is costing more money than a little bit of drag

[Edited 2004-05-22 16:47:27]
 
airplanetire
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sat May 22, 2004 11:56 pm

How significantly is the fuel burn increased? Could a 747 with spare engine make a longer flight such as LAX-SYD nonstop?

-Airplanetire
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 12:02 am

Hey! That's fun stuff!

First time I ever saw or heard about that rarity.

But how is the engine attached to the structure? is there a special pylon that has been designed for the occasion, or does the plane originally carry provision to attach an extra pylon underneath the wing?

Can it carry other types of engine, or just the one the a/c uses?

Intersting stuff, really.
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VSXA380X800
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 12:24 am

Three questions

1. Is that aircraft particularly made for these transport or all 747s capable of this ?
2. If the 747 had 5 engines wouldn't the aircraft be unbalanced ?
3. Now if the aircraft had 6 engines, wouldn't the wings AND the aircraft be heaver and be harder to maneuver?
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blooBirdie
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 12:28 am

Spare engine transport happens quite often; here's another example:


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Don Boyd

 
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Francoflier
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 12:29 am

And finally, can you carry pax on those such flights?

Are there any other restrictions/limitations involved?

That's a lot of questions now, hopefully someone around here knows about all that stuff...
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L.1011
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 12:46 am

How significantly is the fuel burn increased?

It depends. If the engine is like that, allowing the blades to spin without power (windmilling) then the increase is significant. If a streamlined cover is fitted (pics in the database) then it's rather negligable.

Could a 747 with spare engine make a longer flight such as LAX-SYD nonstop?

LAX-SYD is already cargo-restricted on a base 744 AFAIK, cargo would be even moreso with the ferry engine. A 744ER, which can fly the route without cargo restriction normally, would have one carrying the engine. On less demanding routes like LAX-NRT, there would be no problem.


But how is the engine attached to the structure? is there a special pylon that has been designed for the occasion, or does the plane originally carry provision to attach an extra pylon underneath the wing?

There is provision for a pylon there AFAIK.

Can it carry other types of engine, or just the one the a/c uses?

I've only seen aircraft carrying their own engine type. I would assume any engine would be possible, but the only airplanes that I believe can do it are 747s and DC-10s, which use the same basic engines. With narrowbodies, they wouldn't be far enough away from home to need the extra engine, and the only widebodies that don't use the same basic CF6/RB211/Trent/PW4000 family are the A340 (which can't carry a 5th) and the 777 (which can't carry a third because the engines are too frickin' big)

Is that aircraft particularly made for these transport or all 747s capable of this ?

I would assume it is a factory-optional feature, like selecting a different engine type or additional fuel tankage. It seems to be something the majority of airlines, especially ones that fly to some seriously far-out destinations (like Air France and the various overseas departments) would select.

If the 747 had 5 engines wouldn't the aircraft be unbalanced ?

No because the 5th isn't running and the drag concequence is negligable, and could be cured by tapping the other side's throttles back a tad from the side carrying the engine, or by FADEC (full-authority digital engine control) automatically.

Now if the aircraft had 6 engines, wouldn't the wings AND the aircraft be heaver and be harder to maneuver?

I don't believe the 747 or DC-10 (the other plane that can do this) is certified to carry 6/5 engines.

And finally, can you carry pax on those such flights?

Absolutely. It's not an inherantly dangerous procedure, which is the criteria that blocks passengers off planes.

Are there any other restrictions/limitations involved?

If the plane is at the edge of its performance envelope as far as range/payload, then yes, one or the other would be restricted. If we're talking about a 744 on JFK-LHR, then no.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 12:58 am

Thanks for the repliy L1011! interesting thread really.

I can imagine that more than a few passengers got a real surprise when they looked out the window and saw THAT prior to their take off!

Especially since it's not running...

How heavy is your common CF6/PW4000 by the way?

I see it carries a protection around the intake... Interesting...

Is the engine windmilling all the time (at least the fan spool) or is it blocked somehow?

If it windmills, how greatly does it affect drag?
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VSXA380X800
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 12:59 am

''No because the 5th isn't running and the drag concequence is negligable''

So what you are trying to say is that, If a A340-600 ( for example) has only three engines running it will reduce drag and will be unbalanced ?
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MD-90
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 1:08 am

No, the A346 will have asymmetric thrust vectors. But yes, it would be "unbalanced", in a way, but it has nothing to do with drag.

The fifth engine pod is tucked away pretty close to the fuselage already. The rudder is plenty powerful enough to offset it. Or the thrust levels could be managed appropriately, as L.1011 mentioned.
 
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 1:12 am

2. If the 747 had 5 engines wouldn't the aircraft be unbalanced ?

Not really. The lateral displacement from the CG would create a very minimal moment, so the aircraft would not be "unbalanced"
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VSXA380X800
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 1:24 am

Sorry but I have A LOT of questions to ask and things to say  Smile

Since the engine is not in use, why isn't it stored in the cargo under belly than out side( like cargo airlines do). It kind of increases complication for the pilots.
If the Engine would be carried in the underbelly, you can do two things at once, carry passengers and bring the engine to the other location at the same time.
''lateral displacement from the CG''
Can you explain ?

Thanks
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airtran737
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 1:24 am

I can just see the new Virgin Slogan....Five engines for ultra long haul.
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MD-90
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 1:30 am

VSX, it's simple. The engine won't fit!

Lateral CG displacement - a shift in the cg from side to side, rather than the typical front to rear.

You know, like how those MD-80s should be dreadfully unbalanced from having 2 seats on one side of the aisle and 3 seats on the other? Big grin
 
Vorticity
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 1:33 am

A 5th engine would increase drag on that side, as well as change the dynamics of the aircraft. The extra engine is held close to the fuseloge to reduce the moment on the aircraft (lateral displacement from the cg). The farther they place it from the cg, the greater the effect it would have on the aircrafts dynamics, because it would create a greater about the cg. My dynamics book is at work, otherwise I could be more specific  Smile

I'm assuming since they do it, it's been well studied, and they can compensate for the changes in drag and dynamics with the control surfaces.
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StearmanNut
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 1:39 am

So...It is a 747 with FIVE engines...
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VSXA380X800
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 1:43 am

MD-90, Vorticity,
Thanks I understand now. So that the reason why the engine is not placed between engine one and two. This is the last question ( I hope) .Is the extra phylon only on the left wing or on both ?
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Mexicana757
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 1:46 am

Theflcowboy

Yes, an UA DC 10 had to make any emergency landing because of the 4th pod. The flight was a schedule flight from ORD-HNL. The airplane had to return to ORD. It happened sometime in the early to mid 1990s. I can't remember that well, but I think weather played a role.
 
Vorticity
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 1:48 am

Thanks I understand now. So that the reason why the engine is not placed between engine one and two. This is the last question ( I hope) .Is the extra phylon only on the left wing or on both ?

As I said, you want to make the dynamics effect as minimal as possible. Therefor the closer you place it to the cg, the better. Placing it between engines 1 and 2 places it farther from the aircraft's cg, and increases the moment arm.

There are other considerations probably related to the wing's structure, including available hardpoints to place a 5th engine. The wing has to structurally support it. No idea how they got the extra pylon on there, or if it could be on either side, anyone else know?
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burg400
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 3:20 am

The first time I saw a 747 with 5 engines was in Singapore back in 1979 it was a BA flight which was taking us onto Sydney. The day before on climbing out from Singapore our 4th engine lit the cabin up a lovely Orange, only the other day I mentioned it at work with a quick rebuff from a colleague saying impossible and I must admit I was starting to doubt by recollection of the event.
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Leezyjet
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 7:54 am

The lateral c of g is normally acheived by loading the same amount of fuel in each wing.

With a 5th pod attatched, you simply add the equivelant weight of the engine in fuel into the other wing to keep the a/c balanced.

The engines weigh roughly between 4-6000 Kgs IIRC.

 Smile
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 8:11 am

If the Engine would be carried in the underbelly, you can do two things at once, carry passengers and bring the engine to the other location at the same time.

VSX - as L.1011 stated, you can still carry pax with the 5th pod attached underwing.
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mu2
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 8:35 am

Maybe they messed up when writing the MEL and put 5 engines on the form. OOPS!!!
 
mu2
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 8:41 am

Do they put this on the carousel at baggage claim?
 
smcmac32msn
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 8:49 am

Do they put this on the carousel at baggage claim?

Do they tie it to the top of the cab, or use it instead of the cab's motor? Maybe they can get it in the trunk!
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TG992
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 9:31 am

A few points of interest..

It appears GE powered 747 aircraft can't ferry a fifth pod.

As a general rule, a fifth pod operation will attract a 15% increase in flight plan fuel.

Also, when operating with a fifth pod, flight is restricted to non RVSM levels.
-
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 10:59 am

I know much more about props than jets, thus there's something I'd like to know.

Question:

Does a windmilling jet engine (say one of those CF6 or PW4000 ) produce more drag than if the compressors were not rotating?

I guess this would only concern the fan spool...

I also guess the difference is quite unoticeable since the fan is the only one to offer drag and it does not rotate the whole engine, but still, mathematically, does it produce more or less drag than if it was not rotating?
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soaringadi
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 11:11 am

**** "Could a 747 with spare engine make a longer flight such as LAX-SYD nonstop?" ****

first of all the spare engines do not work when being carried....

And about the direct flight from LAX -- SYD.... I thought QF, and UA are already operating those..... if I'm wrong about this info., then sorry  Smile

Have fun  Smile
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Vorticity
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 11:16 am

Question:

Does a windmilling jet engine (say one of those CF6 or PW4000 ) produce more drag than if the compressors were not rotating?

I guess this would only concern the fan spool...

I also guess the difference is quite unoticeable since the fan is the only one to offer drag and it does not rotate the whole engine, but still, mathematically, does it produce more or less drag than if it was not rotating?


Let me go ask my aerodynamics professor from the old days, he's crazy, he might know. Each of those blades is an airfoil, I don't know wether the blades are locked down when it's being ferried or not. Seems to me there would be more drag if they were not locked down. I won't get into the details why though  Smile
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MD-90
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 11:16 am

You know I can't recall ever seeing any (pictures of) ferries other than modern Rolls and the early Pratts on the 747.


Francoflier, I think the main thing is whether or not the cover is on/in the front of the engine. That blockage of airflow has more to do with drag than whether the engine is windmilling or not. It's not like feathering a prop to decrease drag. I would think that having the cover on the engine to help divert the airflow would have the most effect.
 
ZK-NBT
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 11:19 am

Soaringadi, yes QF and UA do operate LAX-SYD nonstop already, but the original question asked weather they could do it when carrying a fifth pod.

See reply 14.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 11:25 am

Yeah, that was my question msince apparently there's an odd shaped cover on. It has to be for drag and to prevent the engine from windmilling.

I know windmilling isn't a big deal for a jet engine, drag wise, but in that case couldn't there be an issue with proper lubrication of the engine, since the inner spools ain't spinning, and they're the one rotating the oil pumps? The bearings wouldn't get proper lubrication...
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soaringadi
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 11:30 am

Ohh.... I mistook it.... I'm sorry ZK-NBT, and airplanetire

weather is good  Smile
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gigneil
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 1:06 pm

L-1011s could also carry a 4th RB211 underwing.

N
 
123
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 1:25 pm

Years ago (around end '70's) LH had a big report about this matter. The explanation is simple.

The engine is needed urgently and there is no cargo capacity on the next available jet, so, hang it to the wing like a shirt, and with the wind it gets there.

Rgds....

123
 
JMChladek
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 5:18 pm

I don't know if it would even be necessary to carry a spare engine from Syndey to LAX. LAX and SFO have pretty good sized maintenance facilities and I suspect if a Qantas 747 needed such an engine, one could probably be rustled up in less time in the states then it would take to transport one via a pod. In the case of DC-10s, they have a completely enclosed pod that they transport engines in. As to why they only put the spare engine pods inboard of the left wing engines, I can only speculate that it might have something to do with the rotation direction of the fan blades and the resulting torque, although I doubt jet engines have the same torque tendencies that prop engines do.

It may seem like a lot of drag to carry an engine externally this way, but the 747 has more then enough power and the fuel reserves to do it. Why do you think NASA uses classic 747s to transport the space shuttle orbiters?
 
VirginFlyer
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 5:42 pm

JMChladek - that may not necessarily be true - I don't believe there are any American operators of the specific engine in question for the bulk of Qantas's 747-400 fleet, the RB211-524G.

V/F
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Gemuser
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sun May 23, 2004 5:53 pm

Its called a 5th pod kit and is a standard option kit on the 747 line as it was on the 707 line before it. I have pictures of both Qantas 742 & MSA (Malaysian Singapore Airlines) 707-320's carring a fifth engine into SYD from the 70s.

You can carry pax while using it, the photos refered to above were regularly scheduled services.

I recall reading, quite some time ago, that it was avaible for the 767/757 line as well, but I dont know if it was ever ordered by any body.

Gemuser
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NZ1
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Thu May 27, 2004 9:29 am

There is NO restriction on the carrying of passengers with the fifth pod activated. I am pretty sure that only RR engines can be fifth podded. The statement that you just add the engine weight in fuel to the other wing is bollocks. The extra weight on the left wing is tucked into the fuselage and doesn't really make any difference. I have flown on an aircraft to deliver and fit an engine to an aircraft that was AOG, and you couldn't even tell it was there. Even the captain commented on this. ZK-NBT was correct when he mentioned the fuel penalty, but apart from that it makes no difference to flight performance, aprt from Vmo settings, for which their is a switch in the electronics bay.

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n9801f
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Thu May 27, 2004 9:37 am

Do I remember that on DC-8's (with the old JT-3 engines), the 'extra' engine was encapsulated in a little bullet-shape carrier? (The engine was completely enclosed and could not windmill)????
 
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NZ1
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Thu May 27, 2004 1:15 pm

Virginflyer, sorry to be picky but the engine on the bulk of the QF 744 fleet is the RB211-524HT not the -524G (slight thrust difference). The rest of their fleet are powered by CF6-80C2B1F's except the 744ER's which are -C2B7F rated.

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scottysair
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RE: Qantas Boeing 744 With 6 Engines?

Sat May 29, 2004 1:17 pm

is that something going on about engines with B747-400?