717fan
Topic Author
Posts: 1975
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2001 10:51 am

Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Sun May 23, 2004 11:08 pm

Who? Cebu Pacific, SNBA, Aebal? Or?
Thanks
 
UnitedTristar
Posts: 839
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 6:45 am

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Sun May 23, 2004 11:09 pm

Rock on...great plane...loved TW's flew on them several times
 
N754PR
Posts: 2909
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 1999 10:03 pm

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Sun May 23, 2004 11:45 pm

It would be nice if 5J get them but I dont think so. They did look at them or even order them a few years back but it was cancelled.

Then again, a QF 717 did visit Manila and was seen at their jet base.....
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
Guest

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Sun May 23, 2004 11:52 pm

Well i think it'd be super cool if United bought the 717 but they have too many planes as it is  Sad. But this is GREAT news for the 717 and it's fans!

~HottieBoi1989~
/ / / U N I T E D - It's time to fly!
 
AA787
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 7:46 am

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Sun May 23, 2004 11:54 pm

I hope your right...for the sake of the proffesionals down in LGB.

AA787
ET In NYC
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8548
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Sun May 23, 2004 11:54 pm

Any link or article regarding this rumor?

Maybe ATA?
 
MD11LuxuryLinr
Posts: 1311
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:34 am

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Sun May 23, 2004 11:57 pm

I also heard a rumor that UA, AA, US, DL, NW, HP, 5X, EA, WN, BA, LX and about 30 other ordering the type too. It should save the 717 line up until the year 2015.  Big grin
Caution wake turbulence, you are following a heavy jet.
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Sun May 23, 2004 11:58 pm

The only 717 order that has been cancelled was the remaining a/c and options on TWA's order that American cancelled.

It would be a great boost for the program if a 10-20 a/c order was to be placed by a European or Asian airline, but you can't rule out a North American order either, maybe a small carrier like Southeast or Allegiant might place a small order for it (5-10 a/c via Pembroke or Bavaria), or the rumored ATA order may prove to be true. Who knows, maybe one of those long rumored startups might place an actual order as well. With Jet-A prices being what they are these days, some airlines may start retiring older a/c and replacing them with more fuel-efficient a/c like the 717, whose fuel burn rate is actually better than originally projected.
 
asianguy767
Posts: 247
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2003 11:17 pm

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Sun May 23, 2004 11:59 pm

With the price of oil so volatile i am guessing that any airline operating fuel greedy aircraft (B732 & DC9s) would now seriously consider the very fuel efficient B717!

Does any1 know, performance n economics wise, is the B717 better than the A318?
 
LMP737
Posts: 4800
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 12:00 am

When I worked at Boeing LB we heard these rumors all the time. Unfortunately they were not true most of the time. If they were I would still be working there.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8548
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 12:03 am

Does any1 know, performance n economics wise, is the B717 better than the A318?

In terms of fuel burn the 717 is the more efficent aircraft. However, the A318 has greater range than the 717. I'll see if I can't find a chart.
 
Guest

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 12:30 am

What r the fuel economy of the 717 compared to the DC-9?

~HottIEBOi1989~
/ / / U N I T E D - It's time to fly!
 
elwood64151
Posts: 2410
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2002 10:22 am

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 12:44 am

Does any1 know, performance n economics wise, is the B717 better than the A318?

As has been stated in this forum several times: On long, thin routes, the A318 is an optimal aircraft. The 717 is designed for short-haul routes of varying density.

What r the fuel economy of the 717 compared to the DC-9?

While I don't have the SFC rates in front of me, suffice to say the 717 burns significantly less fuel than the DC-9.



As for the original topic: We've heard about orders in the past, but as usual I'll believe it when I see it! Hoping for some ATA orders...
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
skymileman
Posts: 577
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2001 2:32 am

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 1:13 am

That would be great if there were orders at farnborough. The 717 line has just barely been getting enough orders to stay above water. I'd love to see that 717-300 become a reality.
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 3624
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 1:17 am

If the 717 goes down the tubes, the professionals at Long Beach will fine because they'll be getting the 767T engineering from Wichita.
 
skymileman
Posts: 577
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2001 2:32 am

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 1:19 am

But if this whole 767 tanker deal goes down, then what will they do? If the government opens up bidding again and selects airbus, I'll leave this country. That would be completely unpatriotic.
 
717fan
Topic Author
Posts: 1975
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2001 10:51 am

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 1:33 am

@DfwRevolution: It was in a article 1 or 2 weeks ago (FlightInternational I think) and also on the net (yahoo?). There was talk that Boeing hopes to secure 18 more orders for the 717 soon. (the 6 announced by Airtran last week should be included in this 18 I believe).
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 1:52 am

Does any1 know, performance n economics wise, is the B717 better than the A318?

They are designed for different missions. The 736 is a much better comparison than the 717.

If the government opens up bidding again and selects airbus, I'll leave this country. That would be completely unpatriotic.

It would NEVER go to Airbus. It will either go ahead as planned with Boeing, or they will decide to replace them later on via other methods (probably leasing planes, but not buying Airbus).
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
frugalqxnwa
Posts: 550
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 3:18 am

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 3:01 am

I would love to see NW, HP, ATA, or UA go for the 717, but then again I also heard F9 was replacing their older A318s with 717s.
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 3:03 am

"What r the fuel economy of the 717 compared to the DC-9?"

According to the AW&ST 2004 Aerospace Source Book, engine manufacturer specs for Specific Fuel Consumption at Max Power:

JT8D-17A -- 0.61

BR715 -- 0.37

CFM56-5B8/P -- 0.32
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
JBLUA320
Posts: 2997
Joined: Mon May 27, 2002 8:51 am

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 3:04 am

Umm... Frontier replacing their "OLDER" A318s with 717s?????? Are you high????????

JBLU
 
frugalqxnwa
Posts: 550
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 3:18 am

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 3:06 am

"Are you high?"

No, but thanks for asking. It is another way of saying that I'll believe it when I see it.
 
nosedive
Posts: 2176
Joined: Sun May 23, 2004 2:18 pm

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 3:18 am

I would love to see NW, HP, ATA, or UA go for the 717

yeah, the 717 would be an awesome replacement for NW's DC9's....when is NW retitiring those pesky things  Laugh out loud? Seriously, as others have mentioned, will this be the rumored TZ order? And if its, or someone else orders the 717, will the order be enough to "save the line"? Somehow I doubt it.
 
frugalqxnwa
Posts: 550
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 3:18 am

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 3:30 am

Nosedive,

I am very well aware of question #9, the 9's will probably be around in 2020. II was just stating I would like to see NW order 717s, no matter if they are to replace or augment the DC-9s.

Whoah, I may be high after all. That was quite some wishful thinking.
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 3:35 am

"yeah, the 717 would be an awesome replacement for NW's DC9's....when is NW retitiring those pesky things  Big grin ?"

Not to go to much off topic but... after a BBD analyst conference last month it was reported that NW's DC9 replacements would be the prime launch target of BBD's proposed NCAP (New Commercial Aircraft Program). The aircraft would potentially be ready for delivery at approximately the same time when NW would be ready to start retiring the DC9s. FYI, the BBD NCAP will be launched only if it has 15-20% better economics than current aircraft (decison expected in 10-11 months).
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
iowa744fan
Posts: 906
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2004 1:31 pm

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 3:50 am

Not that I would not love to see it, but out of curiousity, where are all of these UA purchasing the 717 rumors coming from?
 
frugalqxnwa
Posts: 550
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 3:18 am

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 3:53 am

The UA rumors are probably coming from the fact that their 735s are getting a little long in the tooth and the airline has no other 100 seat aircraft.
 
as739x
Posts: 4993
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2003 7:23 am

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 4:00 am

Now I know that we have people here on A.net that would never let the information past, but wouldn't it be hilarious if the announcement was for +200 for Northwest? I'd be shocked yet LMAO at the same time.

ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
frugalqxnwa
Posts: 550
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 3:18 am

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 4:03 am

Heck, if the announcement is for 200 for NW I will be ecstatic. The 717 is a real good choice for NW because it is essentially the latest version of DC-9, and would require much less training than the Embraer aircraft would. It probably is still wishful thinking though.

As739x,

You have to admit that at least some of us have a sense of humor about it!
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 4:11 am

I doubt it would be 200 for Northwest. Let's be a little more realistic and settle for 50 orders, 50 options, eh? Big grin
 
Blackbird1331
Posts: 1740
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:47 am

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 4:40 am

ATA has ordered 6 aircraft, I believe.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
Northwest717
Posts: 612
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 8:47 am

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 4:55 am

Yes, as much as I love those wonderful '9s, it is high time that NWA orders the 717. It would be a great replacement aircraft with all the advantages that an airline such as NWA could ever want! Hopefully we will see an order soon!  Big grin

-Tim
Dubai: Center of the 21st Century
 
elwood64151
Posts: 2410
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2002 10:22 am

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 5:01 am

If the government opens up bidding again and selects airbus, I'll leave this country. That would be completely unpatriotic.

Less unpatriotic, more stupid. I've said before that France or the EU could boycott the US, crippling our ability to maintain these aircraft when we really need them. Purchasing from a US-based supplier, whether Boeing, Lockheed, or someone else, is a much better option than from a foreign supplier. Even the M9M Baretta is manufactured at a plant in the US. But this is off-topic.

(probably leasing planes, but not buying Airbus).

Actually, the agreement was to lease the planes. That's part of the row.

but then again I also heard F9 was replacing their older A318s with 717s.

What older A318s? They're all brand-new!

As739x:

ROFLMAO! Damn, I didn't think I'd laugh like that for at least a week!

ATA has ordered 6 aircraft, I believe.

Got a source on that one? AirTran (FL) just ordered six, but I've heard nothing of American Trans Air (TZ).
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
rj777
Posts: 1548
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 1:47 am

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 5:32 am

Blackbird,
It was AirTran that ordered six, not ATA!
 
Blackbird1331
Posts: 1740
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:47 am

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 5:39 am

Thank you. I will adjust my portfolio accodingly.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
Guest

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 6:48 am

... it is high time that NWA orders the 717. It would be a great replacement aircraft with all the advantages that an airline such as NWA could ever want! Hopefully we will see an order soon!

NW said “no” to the now-717 in the 1990-1991 timeframe, when MDD was originally shopping it around… that was the same time period when NW was overspending on new aircraft, and actively seeking a DC-9 replacement (and the now-717 would’ve been perfect, since aircraft such as the 737 and 320 are/were too big to fit within many of the gates at the old DTW terminal). NW did, however, borrow many of the attributes of the now-717 in their DC-9 overhaul.

They’ve said no to it for nearly 15 years, they’ll continue to say no.

[Edited 2004-05-23 23:54:22]
 
717fan
Topic Author
Posts: 1975
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2001 10:51 am

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 7:04 am

Hey please stop this NWA and the 717 talking....
 
planespotting
Posts: 3026
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:54 am

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 7:14 am

Yeah this just in:

The 717 has been declared the greatest a/c in the world. All airlines will be required to buy at least 50 and hold options for 50 more regardless of actual need. Northwest has placed an order for over 1000 and are getting rid of their DC-9's. Also, the government has opted to forgo the 767T and has chosen the 717T version, and has placed an order for 500 with 500 options. Airbus has also decided that the Boeing 717 is for them, and are paying Boeing $10,000 per aircraft to be able to produce them in Toulouse for all the european customers (British Airways, RyanAir, Air France, etc..etc..) Boeing announced that the 717 line will be going as long as there is oxygen to breathe on this fair planet.
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
User avatar
Aloha717200
Posts: 3738
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2003 4:50 am

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 7:25 am

 Big thumbs up


I'll just be laughing if NW ever does replace the 717...at the mad scramble of posters on this board to posting the news and replying to a main topic at at least 10 replies per minute.  Big thumbs up I can just see the chaos now...


Too bad it'll never happen. NW will order the A318, how much do you wanna bet?
 
Guest

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 7:29 am

NW will order the A318, how much do you wanna bet?

I'll take that bet. NW isn't going to select an aircraft that seats only 12 less passengers than the A319, carries virtually no cargo & would create a PW vs. CFM56 engine conflict (NW's a PW customer, but their 319/320 already have CFM56).
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8548
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 8:22 am

NW isn't going to select an aircraft that seats only 12 less passengers than the A319, carries virtually no cargo & would create a PW vs. CFM56 engine conflict (NW's a PW customer, but their 319/320 already have CFM56).

I agree with capacity issue, but the A318 can be equipt with CFM can't it?
 
CPDC10-30
Posts: 4681
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 4:30 pm

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 8:28 am

I'll take that bet. NW isn't going to select an aircraft that seats only 12 less passengers than the A319, carries virtually no cargo & would create a PW vs. CFM56 engine conflict (NW's a PW customer, but their 319/320 already have CFM56).

Where's the conflict if the A318 is ordered with the CFM56-5? Sometimes I think Airliners.net is secretly pushing NW to keep the 9's running till 2050 as a source of essential new membership revenue  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
In all honesty though, they look like they'll be around till at least 2008-2010, so any order could still be a few years off.
 
Guest

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 8:32 am

agree with capacity issue, but the A318 can be equipt with CFM can't it?

and

Where's the conflict if the A318 is ordered with the CFM56-5?

- - -

NW is a PW customer. The A319/A320 did not have true PW options, and NW selected the CFM56 (for numerous reasons, including commonality with the 340, which NW had an order for at the time). The A318 has a PW option. It will create conflict for NW to decide between PW loyalty and commonality with the 319/320.
 
Blackbird1331
Posts: 1740
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:47 am

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 8:42 am

CPDC10-30. Who is Dalton McGuinty?
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
CPDC10-30
Posts: 4681
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 4:30 pm

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 8:43 am

The A319/A320 did not have true PW options

Hm, interesting because it is more complicated than it appears initially. I agree with your point that the CFMs were chosen for the narrowbody airbuses because of commonality with the projected A340s - as IAE/PW was not able to offer an engine for that aircraft.
However, espescially considering the problems with the development of the PW6000, I don't think it is too much of a stretch to see NW opting for CFM56s even with a true P&W alternative - if they ever do decide to order the A318.
 
Guest

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 8:47 am

...I don't think it is too much of a stretch to see NW opting for CFM56s even with a true P&W alternative.

Maybe, maybe not but it does complicate matters... again, with the 318 housing two less seat rows than the 319 and virtually no space for cargo, I doubt it'd be a front runner, anyway.

NW has placed the 319 on virtually every DC9 route, and it has been speculated they're testing it as a DC9 replacement (alongside regional jets).
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 9:02 am

Looking at NWA fleet history since 2001 and then projections thru 2005, according to the data in AW&ST 2004 Aerospace Sourcebook, the A319 certainly seem to be replacing some of the DC-9-30/50s. The DC-9s have gone from 170 in 2001 to a projected 140 at end of 2005 (some 30 fewer). Meanwhile, the A319 has gone from 33 in 2001 to 69 this year and a projected 83 at end of 2005. BTW, the A320 has gone from 74 to a projected 82 in 2005.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
717fan
Topic Author
Posts: 1975
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2001 10:51 am

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 10:50 am

Another discussion has ended in one of those sad and longstanding NWA DC-9 replacement topics. Please stop this! All has been said about it, there must be a huge archive of NWA DC-9 discussions on A.net.....
 
planespotting
Posts: 3026
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:54 am

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 2:53 pm

I didn't mean to start it it was only a joke post i tell ya! a joke!
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
Flying-Tiger
Posts: 3923
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 1999 5:35 am

RE: Rumor: More 717 Orders At Farnborough

Mon May 24, 2004 3:16 pm

Lukas, with the F100 (and Embraer 190/195) this strongly marketed at the moment it seems a bit difficult for Boeing to attract new customers for the B717, as they squeez the B712 froom the lower end, whilest Boeing and Airbus are actively working on the upper end with the B73G and A319.

Again, we come to the missing family concept which is probably the main point why this bird isn't selling. Should Rekkof really decide to re-engine the F100 with the BR715 its the end of the B717.

Taking this into account I can only see existing customers converting options on the 717, which reduces it basically to AirTran and maybe Spanair/AeBal. QF can be ruled out, these frames will be on the second-hand market before long, OA is a no-brainer because of zero money. For TZ 12 frames is simply too small an order (besides, Pembroke still has around 12 frames in the book which are not yet leased, wonder if Boeing would count a lease placement of 12 frames as new order in this case). Hawaiian doesn't need more. Turkmenistan max 1-2 additional frames.

For basically all other carriers the Embraers and Fokkers offer more at the moment. Besides, now that Airbus and PW have started a major campaign for the PW-powered A318 it will get even harder for Boeing to get sales.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20