BCAInfoSys
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VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue May 25, 2004 1:53 am

Hey guys.. I figured this would've already been brought up, but I haven't seen anything on it.

It looks like VS (Virgin Atlantic) is shopping to replace the A343s; presumably for increased capacity. When I first heard of a VS order, my very first thought was "Oh great, no competition there; that one'll go to Airbus for sure."

But then I read the article from the Sunday Times (London) that gave me a shred of hope that maybe Boeing will get this one after all. Particularly this qoute from the article:

"In its recent aircraft purchases, Virgin has been an Airbus stalwart, buying the A380 and new versions of the A340. But industry sources said last night that it could this time go for Boeing and buy a stretched version of its large twin-jet, the 777."

I mean, a.netters have speculated about a VS 777 order for a while now, but now it's in the open press. Does that mean anything? Any thoughts on which way this one'll go? Comments?

Steve
Militant Agnostic - I don't know and you don't either.
 
Businessboy
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RE: VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue May 25, 2004 2:00 am

I dont think that they will go for Boeing, they're are probably tryin' to scare Airbus to hell and tryin' to make Airbus give VS a good deal on some newer A340's.... Thats what i think..
And, i couldnt imagine to see the 777 in VS livery, just doesnt fit inn.

Anyway, these are my thoughts.

BusinessBoy

[Edited 2004-05-24 19:01:59]
LOVE CONTINENTAL AIRLINES & LOVE BRITISH AIRWAYS
 
SNATH
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RE: VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue May 25, 2004 2:02 am

I'm a Boeing fan. And I do hope VS goes with B777s. However, I can't see it
happen. As far as I can see, they are using a potential B777 order as leverage
to get a better package from Airbus (see what Iberia did). And if they do go with
B777s how will that fit with their "4 engines 4 long-haul" slogan? I suppose they
can change it to "2 engines 2 do long-haul".  Big thumbs up

I wish I'm wrong...

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
AA737-823
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RE: VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue May 25, 2004 2:10 am

I, for one, am also pushing a 777 order. BUT- like AA did with the A300s and 767s, I imagine that they are just twisting Airbus's arm.
R
 
Greg
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RE: VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue May 25, 2004 2:15 am

It will come down to price.
Essentially, there is nothing a 777-300SP can do that the 340-600 can't.
They are both fine aircraft....so it will come down to the terms of the purchase.
 
Hirnie
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RE: VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue May 25, 2004 2:24 am

I agree with the others.I think VS tries to get the busses a bit cheaper.
But who knows,suddenly VS goes with Boeing...They are good for a surprise any time  Big grin
 
767-332ER
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RE: VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue May 25, 2004 2:35 am


Boeing was VS's money maker for a long time!!! How could they go wrong with getting the 777 if they are looking to replace their A340s?
Regards
Twinjets...if one fails, work the other one twice as hard!!!
 
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Richard28
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RE: VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue May 25, 2004 3:17 am

How could they go wrong with getting the 777 if they are looking to replace their A340s?

off the top of my head....

- increased costs of new simulators/pilot training
- pilots will have to be authorised on this type only, rather than both A343 and a346
- I understand that (correct me if wrong!) cabin crew may not be able to operate a further type per CAA rules.
- another engine type into the mix
- maintenance/engineering will need new training on type
- design of interiors to fit new type.

Not saying it wont happen, just answering your question!

Having said above, I think the order could go either way  Smile

Rich.
 
Greg
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RE: VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue May 25, 2004 3:27 am

Look for a sweetheart deal for widebodies and the 50 plane Virgin USA deal. It appears that the elimination of Boeing from the narrowbody competition was a bit premature as stated earlier. They are back in it....
 
hz747300
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RE: VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue May 25, 2004 3:41 am

I love the title of this post. Sadly, with the L1011 gone from the market, VS of course would have to go with Boeing or Airbus. Unless of course they throw us a curveball and choose the IL-86 for their new long haul fleet.

I still want to fly on a A340-300 series to see if the performance is as bad as I think it is from the size of the engines in compared to the aircraft. I am going from solely as how I view the aircraft.
Keep on truckin'...
 
BCAInfoSys
Topic Author
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RE: VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue May 25, 2004 4:36 am

Oh wow.. I completely forgot about the potential Virgin USA order. That will be a HUGE order for either Boeing or Airbus, whoever ends up getting it. Around 20 widebodies for VS, and 50 planes for Virgin USA.. my head is spinning at the potential that could do for helping Boeing to getting back in the game...  Nuts

I'm obviously biased towards wanting Boeing to get this one, but I think they're a long shot.. I still have this gut feeling that Airbus will get this one and us Boeing-folks will never hear the end of it.
Militant Agnostic - I don't know and you don't either.
 
starrion
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RE: VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue May 25, 2004 4:41 am

Where did you guys see that Boeing is back in the Virgin USA order? I thought it had been published that Boeing was out.

I did a search on the forums and didn't see anything.
Knowledge Replaces Fear
 
airxliban
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RE: VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue May 25, 2004 4:43 am

Speculation, speculation...

HOWEVER...didn't Virgin express discontent with the A340-600? (Or am i thinking of SA, CX or IB?)

If thats the case, why would they go for more of them?

I would LOVE to see a VS 773 order to replace those stale A343s.

i dont think the 4 engines 4 long haul would stand in the way if the deal was good.

Boeing and Airbus are obviously both in talks with Virgin and VS is expected to announce their decision before the end of summer.

I would most like to see a collection of 777-31R(ER)s and 737s for this one.

Has anyone seen an impression of a VS 773?
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue May 25, 2004 5:28 am

i dont think the 4 engines 4 long haul would stand in the way if the deal was good

...that would be forgotten faster than the fact that the 763ER was opping VS flights throughout the late 90s  Laugh out loud
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
ryanb741
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RE: VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue May 25, 2004 5:28 am

They will almost certainly go for the Airbuses - I actually think the 4 engines 4 long haul slogan will be critical. Personally, give me a 773 over an A340 any day (BTW, am I the only person left who still thinks the 744 is just about the greatest long haul aircraft out there despite being 'outdated?)
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Greg
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RE: VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue May 25, 2004 11:11 am

After being public about working with Airbus on the VirginUS deal...Branson had specifically stated in the news that both manufacturers are being considered.

I think this would give Boeing the greatest possibility of getting both the 773 and 73NG's placed with the carrier.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue May 25, 2004 11:20 am

I don't know, VS already operates a lot of a340's of both the -300 and the -600 version. It would seem illogical (to Dr Spock) to operate yet another type in the fleet.

I do like the new stretched 777 though, I think it'd look good in the VS livery...
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
RaginMav
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RE: VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue May 25, 2004 11:49 am

If this were just a toss up between the A340 and the 773ER, I'd have to say they'll stick with the 340.

However, has VS ruled out the 744? If they're unhappy enough to stop procuring the 340, would it be more advantageous to give up a bit of efficiency (with the 744 vs. the 773ER) and not have to add another type to their fleet?

I realize that adding a third (fourth, if you count the 343 and 346 separately) type would not be a big deal if they plan on ridding themselves of the 340's, but as I understand it, this is not the plan.

Just a thought, any opinions?
 
leo777
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RE: VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue May 25, 2004 12:07 pm

Ryanb the 744 is the greatest aircraft in the world, and let me correct you the 744 is not outdated, its very high tech like other competitive widebodies. The thing that may be outdated is the body but even that is fairly recent since the upper portion got extended. This is the best aircraft in the world and most recognizeable in the world. Boeing needs to put more emphasis to keep the 747 line going. Or else..............
You got to be careful if you don't know where you're going, because you might not get there.
 
soaringadi
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RE: VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue May 25, 2004 12:19 pm

What I think is that they would probably looking for versatality in their fleet, and if they are going to retire their 744's, they could probably go ahead and buy some 777's. Or else they would be an "only Airbus" fleet.

weather is good  Smile
If it ain't Boeing, I'm not going !
 
MATURRO727
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RE: VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue May 25, 2004 12:21 pm

Hey !





IM a Boeing fan ! I hope VS goes for 773, 773 in VS scheme ! GREAT !!!
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue May 25, 2004 12:36 pm

Essentially, there is nothing a 777-300SP can do that the 340-600 can't.

I assume you mean 777-300ER? Because there is no 773SP that I am aware of...

I dont think that they will go for Boeing, they're are probably tryin' to scare Airbus to hell and tryin' to make Airbus give VS a good deal on some newer A340's.... Thats what i think..

There have been bigger shockers. Look who is the only non-Asian customer of the 773ER.... Air France.

Ryanb the 744 is the greatest aircraft in the world, and let me correct you the 744 is not outdated, its very high tech like other competitive widebodies

It is still an early 80s design, against late 80s/early 90s for the A340 and 777 respectivly. The 773ER comes very close to the payload, range, and economics of many 744s.

I, for one, am also pushing a 777 order. BUT- like AA did with the A300s and 767s, I imagine that they are just twisting Airbus's arm.

I'd love a 777 order, but I am by no means holding my breath. I suspect the bargining tactic as well. Then again, remember than SQ is also looking at the 773ER and the "relationship" they have with VA. And lets face it, Branson wants to make money. If the 773ER will make him more money, then he will buy it.
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue May 25, 2004 1:06 pm

If I remember correctly, all of VS's 343s are leased, no? If that is the case, I have a thought that no one else seems to be coming up with here. Would VS be willing to replace their old 343s with the new 343E (such as delivered to South African)? This would truly minimize migration costs - much more so over other aircraft while marginally improving performance. Or are they really looking for an aircraft with higher capacity? I think it is a bit risky having a A346/773 as your smallest aircraft - espescially for opening new routes.
 
Vorticity
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RE: VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue May 25, 2004 1:13 pm

I think it could go either way. It could be serious that they are considering 777s, or they could just be leaking that info, for any number of reasons, including putting pressure on Airbus. It's in VS's best interesting to provoke competition because it probably ends up a better deal for them.

They are both great planes, though I would like to see the 777 in VS colors. We'll find out the real answer soon enough, good luck to the sales people at Airbus and Boeing  Smile
Thermodynamics and english units don't mix...
 
airxliban
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RE: VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue May 25, 2004 3:59 pm

the idea is that the new aircraft order will replace the A340-300s AND add additional capacity.

it would appear as though VS has 9 A340-300s. This new aircraft order is said to be for 20 widebodies. That is an increase of 11 aircraft and a major increase in capacity even before the A380s arrive (pushed back a year now apparently).

Does anyone think that VS might split the deal for 50 narrowbodies and 20 widebodies into the two manufacturers?

Was it Virgin Atlantic that expressed dissatisfaction with the A340-600?

I'm still pining for a 777-31R(ER) order. I wouldn't mind seeing those A340-600s take a long walk either. Too bloody long for its own good! Not that the 773 is short and stubby...
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
squirrel83
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RE: VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue May 25, 2004 4:20 pm

I have herd that VS will order 7E7's, that is sketchy but I would love it it would be kewl but as stated in previous posts they will most likly order 777-2ers not 300's becuase well basicly no need, but There are rumors floating around here (SEATTLE) that they will do a split order . .
A346, 7E7, 747, 777, Sonic Cruiser
 
PC12Driver
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RE: VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue May 25, 2004 4:42 pm

The bottom line is: Which aircraft is going be able to be operated most economically? Airlines are a business. The goal is to make money. The decision is going to be made based on this criteria. If VS thinks it will be more cost effective to operate a 777, that's what they'll acquire. If they crunch the numbers and decide that an Airbus will cost less, then Airbus will get the order. I don't think Virgin really has a preference as far as a manufacturer goes. They operate 747s don't they? They have for years.

I don't think anyone here can say for sure who's going to get the order. Both the 777 and A340 are great aircraft that get their passengers from point A to point B safely and comfortably.

And believe me, the "4 engines 4 long haul" thing has absolutely no bearing on the decision. When it boils down to cold hard cash, marketing slogans are real easy to change. Heck, if wanted to, they could just leave it painted on their 4 engined a/c, and just put "2 powerful 2 need 4 engines" on the 777s if they got some.  Smile
 
airxliban
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RE: VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue May 25, 2004 11:15 pm

Ok i figured out what virgin are getting from an inside source....




































20 Il-96s converted passenger and 50 Tu-154s.
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue May 25, 2004 11:21 pm

I think VS would likely go for the A340-600HGW when that becomes available in 2006. With its much lighter wing and longer range (I believe Airbus wants 8,000 nautical mile range for the A346HGW), the plane would be perfect for VS' route expansions.
 
ramerinianair
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RE: VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue May 25, 2004 11:41 pm

"It Doesn't fit"??????
You are trying to say that the 777 doesn't belon in VS colors????
I HAVE SOME NEWS FOR YOU BUSINESSBOY . . .

If there is a need for a significant amount of A/C and the economics and fuel consumption are right and the PRICE IS RIGHT, Then the 777 will be with VS. VS is not uncontested on almost all their routes. They have competeition from multiple carriers and cannot afford expensive A/C. If the price is low enought to offset the additional training costs, the 777 works for them. Fuel prices are high and the markets are still low in some areas. The 777 would be BEAUTIFUL in VS colors!
-S.R.
W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
 
EAL757
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RE: VS To Go With Boeing Or Airbus?

Wed May 26, 2004 9:14 am

I wish like heck that VS would get the 777, mainly because of my complete disregard of the A340, but doesn't the triple 7 cost much more than an A340?

Jeff

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