fraT
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Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 2:40 am

I just heard in the German news that AF might be in trouble if they have to tear down the whole Terminal 2E as this is the terminal which is planned to be used for the A380 AF has ordered.
Can anybody confirm that??
Cheers
 
7e72004
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 2:42 am

If they have to tear it down, i think they would/should be able to rebuild it in time for the A380...am i not correct?
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
Jaspike
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 2:44 am

Could they really have to tear the whole thing down?!  Wow!


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richierich
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 2:44 am

Wow - hadn't thought of that FraT. But it sounds like it is right.
This terminal was only in service one year before the tragic (and incredible) accident yesterday. It is amazing to me that no one noticed any problems before this happened. My guess is that the terminal will have to come down - at the very least it would take months or perhaps a year or two to check the rest of the terminal and fix the broken section.
RIP to the poor passengers who lost their lives being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
None shall pass!!!!
 
7e72004
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 2:48 am

I think they almost have to...if they heard cracking again then they should be safe and not take any chances.
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
AFa340-300E
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 2:49 am

Hello,

The president of ADP (the Paris airport authority that operates and owns the infrastructure) said that they would tear down the terminal if its structure is not safe. But we will have to wait for the inquiry before making any speculation.

BTW, correct me if I'm wrong but they're already building the S3 terminal extension that was to add more gates to Terminal 2E (the numerb of available gates next to terminals has been a concerned ever since AF launched its hub).


Best regards,
Alain Mengus
ATBiz.com -- Air France 777-300ER
 
ArgInMIA
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 2:51 am

This could be fixed fast by adding support beans right in the middle.. it will be the fastest way to fix it.. but look bad.. and it should save them tons of money and time.. I really don't think this should be teared down..
Alto.. Mucho mas alto.. hasta la cumbre
 
fraT
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 2:51 am

As also mentioned in the other thread, they heard cracks in other parts of this building. I think nobody can take the responsibility to reopen it.
 
FJWH
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 3:17 am

IF they need to tear down the whole terminal and rebuild it....well there in good shit! They are already in good shit. They... we don't know exacly who, (builders, architects? etc.) but CDG for certain, and maybe also A380 operations.
First of all: the new structure costed about €750.000.000 (if I 'm correct?).
They have to rebuild that (for at least a part of the structure: MONEY!)
I can already hear the money claims from family and relatives coming.
France gets a bad name I guess!

FlightS in the next 3 months: MSP, PHX, MEM, NCE, TFS, BCN. All round trips from AMS
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 3:20 am

Could they really have to tear the whole thing down?!

I think it is a tad early to declare the entire structure unsafe, and to being demolition. It could require a brace of some sort, not unlike the CitiCorp Tower in NYC, but I would close the terminal until I knew it was safe. As for disrupting A380 ops, EOS is still 2 years away...
 
CPH-R
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 3:30 am

First of all: the new structure costed about €750.000.000 (if I 'm correct?).
They have to rebuild that (for at least a part of the structure: MONEY!)
I can already hear the money claims from family and relatives coming.


Isn't that what insurance is for? I highly doubt that ADP would be operating a terminal that wasn't insured against just about everything.
 
Guest

RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 3:33 am

I think they still have enough time to build another terminal and no fear (hope): the 380 will fly to/from Paris without delay  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
icarus75
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 3:37 am

I fly to/from CDG at least once a month and it seems to me ADP is already building a new terminal, dedicated to the A380.
This new terminal will close the two branches made by terminals A, B, C, D, E & F : there are a lot of construction works in this area.
Flying is amazing!
 
PSA53
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 3:40 am

Does this prove the point?



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Mikey711MN
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 3:55 am

The structural stability of the entire terminal likely is not compromised by the missing section, i.e. little load transfer probably occurs lengthwise by virtue of its segmental construction (at least from what I can tell by looking at the pictures), but rather through an analysis of the stresses that occur principally in each individual section (read: arch). My guess is just as good/bad as anyone's while this "cracking" mystery remains...

Regardless, as DfwRevolution pointed out, amazing retrofits can be applied to buildings that seem hopelessly salvageable such as the Citibank saga. That building went up and maintained service while a significant retrofit was added to ensure proper wind bracing on the tower...very few, if any, in the building even knew about it. It's a great story and a tribute to engineering ethics, but I digress...

There are other circumstances where structures just, well, aren't conceivably saved. Only a few weeks ago, inspectors effectively condemned a significant portion of the yet-to-be-opened Memorial Causeway in Florida due to some hella cracks that formed under construction loads. It'll likely mean tens of millions of dollars in lost monies, but sometimes that happens.

-Mike
I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
 
richierich
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 4:15 am

Geez what a mess! I wonder if this will hurt Paris' chances at hosting the 2012 Olympics? Probably not but I thought I would throw that out there.

If this whole terminal is condemned, which I almost have a hard time believing, there is no way a new terminal could be built in just two years or before the A380 enters service. There is an enormous amount of work that goes into a project like this and everything from architecture to construction would be under the microscope on any new projects. I'm sure if they have to build a new terminal it would be much more reserved and less extravagant than this one - too bad.

My guess is that (a) the section that collapsed will be rebuilt and finished within 18 months and (b) they will not have to tear down the entire terminal. Obviously (b) depends on exactly what caused the accident and how they shore up the rest of the structure. It still amazes me that no one noticed any problems before the collapse - there must have been signs such as cracks or noises that just went unnoticed or were not acted upon.

I guess it could have been worse. I noticed there wasn't an aircraft at the gate (anybody know which gate number?)- if there had been, one could reason there would have been quite a few more people in harms way.
None shall pass!!!!
 
EUSWISS
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 4:22 am

-In the short term, the closure of terminal 2E means an important loss for AF.
Terminal 2E as the most performant and most efficient, and its closure is a blow to AF.
-In the medium term, if the terminal can not be reopened soon, it could cause a delay in the launch of the A380 which is scheduled to be delivered to AF between 2006 and 2007. The first 2 gates to accomodate the A380 are planned to be from terminal 2E, and later from 2A, 2C and S3 in 2007-2008
-In the long term, a long closure or even demolition of the terminal 2E DOES NOT threaten AF profitability, analysts say.
 
meister808
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 4:40 am

Well, I'm not going to speculate on the cause of the collapse or the feasibility of fixing it vs. tearing it down. I simply don't know enough about the millions of things that I need to know about to make an adequate guess on that.

However, it seems to me that the A380 is something of a pride issue with Air France. You know... an extraordinary aircraft, built in France, flying for its first revenue flight with the flag carrier of France. It seems to me that the sheer political importance of having that happen will mean that AF will still use the 380, no matter if they have a terminal for it or not. If need be, they will use a remote stand and bus people to it for the short-term. That may not be the most desirable option, but, as I said, I am certain that they have extremely high stakes in being the launch customer.

-Meister
Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
 
richierich
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 4:43 am

I agree Meister.
Even if Terminal 2E has to be razed and started over, Air France will not delay the delivery of their flagship A380 aircraft!
My guess is that in two years they could temporarily build something at another CDG terminal to handle the A380.
None shall pass!!!!
 
FlySSC
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 4:59 am

The A380 will join the fleet in 2007. At that time, the satellite S3 with several gates dedicated to the A380 will be operational.

The biggest problem is not the A380. The biggest problem is if ADP has to destroy the whole Terminal 2E. Actually, they are talking about tearing down "just" the part that collapsed, the part with the boarding lounges and the jetways, not the WHOLE building where are located the Check-in areas, luggage delivery etc...Even though, if they decide to do so, it will take months and even years before they can re-build it as new (long) studies will have to be undertaken before starting the reconstruction...

Anyway, it is far too early to speculate on the future of the 2E.

Concerning the Traffic itself, 2E was just partially opened, and "only" 60 flights a day were treated at 2E. If 2E has to remain closed for several months, Terminal 2C is likely to become the temporary "Skyteam" terminal, some AF flights will be redistributed to 2A and 2B and some airlines, recently moved from T1 to Terminal 2 will return to T1 just like Iberia, who had recently transferred its flights from CDG1 to CDG2, and who returned as soon as today to CDG1.
 
Blackbird1331
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 5:24 am

Yes, I too, agree with Meister808. There is a way around the problem until things are sorted out.

This building is not an arch. Arches fall in on themselves and are supported by the center piece. This is an oval. The two sides are pulling away from each other. Collar ties on the inside, and supports on the outer, bottom portions of the structure might save it, if it is not already deemed unsafe and must be condemned.

God's speed to all involved in this. Prayers for the deceased.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 5:31 am

flying for its first revenue flight with the flag carrier of France

The first revenue flight will be for Singapore, not France.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
N79969
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 5:38 am

If the engineers determine that the entire terminal needs to be torn down and replaced, then Air France will have a problem. I read that the new terminal was part of Air France's competitive response to Lufthansa and BA which are using terminals at AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA and LHR to near their capacity.

If Air France is deprived of this asset, it will have a harder time persuading travelers to transit through their hub.

Even if insurers ultimately foot the bill for all the repair/reconstruction of the terminal, Air France will probably will not be able to recover lost revenues that result from yesterday's tragedy.
 
cmckeithen
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 6:47 am

If im not mistaken, that looks like the center part was what collapsed. Thats the most important part.
 
Blackbird1331
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 7:09 am

No, Cmckeithen. All sections are more or less constructed independently. The fear here is, that if one section has a flaw, the section that collapsed, that the others have the same flaw. Time will tell. Too many variables involved to start placing blame. Be patient.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
cmckeithen
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 7:23 am

Okay thanks for the explaination. Its more like a jigsaw puzzle (or modular building).
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 7:35 am

Here's another a quote from Reuters-

PARIS (Reuters) - New cracks have appeared at a Paris airport terminal, a day after part of the roof collapsed, and the airport's head has vowed to tear the terminal down if an investigation finds it is unsafe.

"A certain number of cracks were observed in a second zone that is identical in design to the area where the roof collapsed," Rene Brun, director of operations at the airport, told reporters on Monday.

He said that during construction, ADP had found cracks in some supporting pillars but they had been reinforced with carbon fibres. He denied construction had been rushed or that ADP opted for a futuristic cylindrical design without regard for safety.

Firemen said they had retrieved four bodies from the rubble, revising the death toll down from five. The search could last days and it was not clear if there were more bodies under the rubble, a fire brigade spokesman said.


http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=516750§ion=news

--
 
Guest

RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 8:01 am

Here's another link.

Man... Bad deal.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040524/D82P6AI01.html
 
wilco
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 8:18 am

This NY Times article is specifically about the terminal collapse's affect on the AF 380.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/25/business/worldbusiness/25airbus.html
doesn't sound good

-wilco
"Ever seen a grown man naked?"
 
LFutia
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 9:27 am

er... i cant access the NYT Article! This is bad for AF, ADP and CDG... This wont hurt the AF-KL deal will it? Im very against the AF-KL deal so uhh... i dont want my post flamed. I am stating my own opinion and RIP to those who have lost their lives in yesterday's unfortunate accident.
Leo/ORD -- Groetjes uit de VS! -- Heeft u laatst nog met KLM gevlogen?
 
Ken777
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 11:20 am

The building will probably need to be torn down, at least to the lowest floor level. The rebuild will also need to be something besides an oval.

I don't think insurance companies will be willing to live with a situation where the terminal is patched up and filled with thousands of passengers from loads of 380's landing and preparing to depart. Independent engineers would have to certify that there were no more risks and it would take a brave soul to do that.

To add to the risk are the trial lawyers - especially in the US. They would have a field day with the airport and AF if there was another collapse and some Yanks were killed. Lawyers in other countries are also learning about the wealth available from these types of suits and juries would not be impressed with a situation where they used the oval design even after one collapse that killed people. The face is that trial lawyers can generate more jury awards than a new building would cost.
 
N79969
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 11:47 am

"I don't think insurance companies will be willing to live with a situation where the terminal is patched up and filled with thousands of passengers from loads of 380's landing and preparing to depart."

I tend to agree. I don't think Air France, the airport authority, or anyone else wants to risk just putting band aids on the building at this point. It sounds like other parts of the terminal are falling apart is well.

Thanks for posting the NYTimes article. They will figure out a way to accommodate the A380 even it means putting a temporary facility somewhere on the field. However, Air France may not be able to utilize them as well as Lufthansa and Virgin while they figure out the terminal space issue for the long term.

[Edited 2004-05-25 05:10:42]
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 12:01 pm

"If" the terminal is torn down? It's gone as soon as the cranes, front end loaders and dump trucks can get there.

But it will have no effect, sorry doubters, on the A380. The beast will, well maybe, enter service as planned. Of course one never knows for sure but I've got 50 cents rideing on the A380 and to me, that's a large bet.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
Spike
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 12:11 pm

I for one have no intention of flying via CDG Terminal 2 at present. You would constantly be looking up to check that the ceiling wasn't about to land on your head. Perhaps AF should move to Schiphol.
 
nosedive
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 12:20 pm

The building will probably need to be torn down, at least to the lowest floor level. The rebuild will also need to be something besides an oval.

Let's all not get ahead of ourselves here, we still do not know what caused that section of 2E to fail. Ergo, we don't know what measures will need to be taken to "remedy" the problem. In the short run, yes, AF has suffered a blow to their operations @ CDG, but we won't know the long term affects until after the investigation.

AF will still use the 380, no matter if they have a terminal for it or not. If need be, they will use a remote stand and bus people to it for the short-term.

It all will come down to costs. If it will be cheaper for AF to defer deliveries for a while because of the lack of infrastructure, they'll do it. But this doubtful. I too agree that another section of CDG will be retrofitted to accommodate the A380, and that any retrofits will be completed before 2007, but another question still persists, will the A380 be ready to face the aviation world by then? I'm not doubting Airbus, but the plane still has to prove it can fly.
 
SailorOrion
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 5:50 pm

I really hopes someone goes into jail for this. From whatever was said in the newspaper (even though most of this is crap) there were some ... catches about the opening of the building.

I guess this is what you get for the rushed construction. I really do hope they tear down the thing before anyone else gets hurts.

Sorry to say so, but one more reason not to use CDG at all costs.

SailorOrion
 
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sebolino
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 9:53 pm

I really hopes someone goes into jail for this.

Let's wait for the conclusions. The architect has said that he doesn't understand what could have happen. This guy has built numerous building including Beijing opera, Nice airport's extension T2 ... So he's not just a newbie in the business.

Sorry to say so, but one more reason not to use CDG at all costs.

This is a very stupid statement. What are your other reasons not to use CDG ?
 
Guest

RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Tue May 25, 2004 11:45 pm

I really hopes someone goes into jail for this.

Yikes man. Guilty until proven innocent.

Look, what happened, happened. Could have been the design, could have been a bad mix of concrete. Could have been something as simple as the earth under the terminal shifting. Perhaps even simple vibrations from aircraft taking off. Throw someone in jail? Man is not perfect.

 
britmex
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Wed May 26, 2004 12:14 am

As a constant CDG user and a fan of new 2E terminal I really regret what happened. This is a tragedy.

Anyway, this is a reminder that man is not perfect and even the most futuristic technology fails. I see this tragedy with the same interest as the Comet and Concorde crashes, as well as the Titanic accident. Man is not perfect, this is a tragedy, lives were lost but WE can learn from this.

My best wishes for the Parisians and their wonderful airport which I visit several times a year either as a crewmember or during holidays to see may brother who lives in Paris.

albrecht

¡au Mexicain que aime a la France!
Aeromexico, la linea aerea que va para arriba
 
neilalp
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Wed May 26, 2004 4:22 am

A few questions did KLM go back to terminal 1 since that's where they moved from? Also will this cause a job loss out at CDG with less people needing to work?
 
FlySSC
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Thu May 27, 2004 1:04 am

KLM will leave CDG1 on June 1st and move, as expected, to CDG2F.

The renovation work in progress at CDG1 have been stopped, to allow airlines to "return" to CDG1 to make room to AF and SkyTeam airlines at CDG2.

As I mentionned in a post above, IBERIA already went back to CDG1. Air Tahiti Nui and Air India are also moving to CDG1.
 
Spike
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Thu May 27, 2004 2:02 am

Goodness CDG1 as in the round thing with the walkways in it? I always feel like I'm in some 1970s film when I go through that one! This is all going to give a very bad impression on Paris ahead of the Olympic bid, and I really don't want London to win it.
 
taca
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RE: Accident At CDG. Big Trouble For AF And A380

Thu May 27, 2004 2:29 am

"Yikes man. Guilty until proven innocent.

Look, what happened, happened. Could have been the design, could have been a bad mix of concrete. Could have been something as simple as the earth under the terminal shifting. Perhaps even simple vibrations from aircraft taking off. Throw someone in jail? Man is not perfect."
---------------------------------------------------
Yeah, nobody is perfect. But I think that somebody (maybe more than one) after a fair trial in Court, must pay. Even if it was a "mistake" or "human error". Why: A high cost: four deaths!