Ruscoe
Topic Author
Posts: 1577
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 1999 5:41 pm

JetStar What Is Qantas Thinking?

Tue May 25, 2004 7:51 pm

JetStars kickoff made me start thinking about why they are doing this at all.

Good for the flying public but all it will do is force Qantas prices down.

Qantas seems quite capable of holding it's own against Virgin without JetStar.

The cynics are saying it is to bring the Pilots under control, but I don't know.

And they introduce a new type and they are getting rid of the best aircraft (from a passenger point of view0 in the fleet the 717.

Ruscoe
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: JetStar What Is Qantas Thinking?

Tue May 25, 2004 7:55 pm

Its to allow QF to legimitately offload unprofitable or marginal domestic flights. When Jetstar inevitably fails (as all LCC-within-an-airline always do), QF will be able to shut it down and with it all the manky out of the way routes they've always had to fly because of political pressure as the "national carrier" eg. LST,HBA and keep the plum SYD-BNE-MEL triangle routes under the QF banner. I thought that was obvious.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Beno
Posts: 422
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 6:52 pm

RE: JetStar What Is Qantas Thinking?

Tue May 25, 2004 8:48 pm

It stops a third carrier from entering the domestic market.

I think QF and DJ are pretty happy with Jetstar as both airlines maintain their duopoly.
 
aussie747
Posts: 1005
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:15 pm

RE: JetStar What Is Qantas Thinking?

Tue May 25, 2004 8:55 pm

All I know is all the people from Tasmania do not like it one bit (now only 2 MEL-HBA services by QF now), the QF services now are inadequate and always full.
 
miami1
Posts: 652
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 10:31 pm

RE: JetStar What Is Qantas Thinking?

Tue May 25, 2004 9:37 pm

The people of Tasmania need to get over it.

They have never had more choice and cheaper fares than they have now. Whether it be JQ, QF or DJ. There is more seats and flights and the fares are ridiculously low compared to what one paid in the 80s and 90s.

It was only 10 years ago Tasmania was the domain of F28s, 146s and Dash 8s (to LST!). It was only four years ago the three or four MEL flights and the single flight to SYD by AN and QF were ALWAYS full and the fares were extremely high.

Yes there is absolutely a need for full service flights ex HBA. And there may be a TINY demand for J class. But QF cannot provide more than the three 737 flights - they lose TOO MUCH money. QF should have made a couple of 717s two class for this purpose. Or bring in the 70 seat jets when they arrive. Unfortunately the 737s are too big for the the purpose of complimenting JQ with a full service option.

Just watch for the sole 737 flight MEL-LST to be pulled. The costs associated with the single flight operation are astronomical and the support just won't be there. People demand cheap fares. Low cost carriers throughout the WORLD have proven that time and time again.

The majority of traffic to and from Tassie is low yield and leisure. Hence the Jetstar services.

Tasmanians have never had it SO GOOD! End of story.
 
User avatar
VirginFlyer
Posts: 3950
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2000 12:27 pm

RE: JetStar What Is Qantas Thinking?

Sat May 29, 2004 10:12 am

Qantas seems quite capable of holding it's own against Virgin without JetStar.

Actually part of the reasoning behind JetStar was Qantas's inability to stop Virgin's market share growing.

When Jetstar inevitably fails (as all LCC-within-an-airline always do)

Not true. Witness Freedom Air.

V/F
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
VHTAE
Posts: 194
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 8:19 pm

RE: JetStar What Is Qantas Thinking?

Sat May 29, 2004 3:57 pm

I agree, it will deter others from creating any new domestic carrier. I read in AA magazine that SIA has decided not to proceed with one and same for Paul Stoddart's OzJet.
 
777ER
Crew
Posts: 9855
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 5:04 pm

RE: JetStar What Is Qantas Thinking?

Sat May 29, 2004 5:39 pm

Miami1

The people of Tasmania need to get over it.
Yip I have to agree with you on that one. I have searched on DJ, QF and JQ's web-site and have come up with these direct flights.

Virgin Blue
Launceston - Melbourne, connects to 9 Domestic and 1 Pacific Blue flight
Hobart - Brisbane, connects to 11 Domestic and 1 Pacific Blue flight
Hobart - Melbourne, connects to 12 Domestic and 1 Pacific Blue flight

Qantas
Burnie-Melbourne (Qantas Link), connects to QF domestic and QF international
Devonport-Melbourne (Qantas Link) connects to domestic and international
Hobart-Melbourne (Qantas Link, connects to heaps of domestic and internation
Hobart-Sydney (Qantas Link), connects to lots of Domestic and International
Launceston-Melbourne (Qantas Link), connects to domestic and international

Jetstar
Hobart-Melbourne -
Hobart-Sydney -
Hobart-Brisbane - connects to heaps of JQ, QF domestic and international
Launceston-Melbourne -
Launceston-Sydney -

Some airports in Australia the same size as Hobart and Launceston can only dream of having this many choices. Heaps of the services are daily or even operate a few times a day.

Head Forum Moderator
moderators@airliners.net
 
Gemuser
Posts: 4311
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: JetStar What Is Qantas Thinking?

Sat May 29, 2004 9:43 pm

Why is something so bloody obvious so bloody difficult for some people to understand???

Jetstar has costs per seat kilometer about 35-45% CHEAPER than QF Domestic! That means that UNLESS the fares recived on QF Domestic are more than 35-45% MORE than what Jetstar recives than the QANTAS Group make MORE MONEY by having people fly Jetstar rather than QF Domestic.

So the basic game plan is also obvious. Raise QF Domestic fares to a profitable level, with that cost base, then size QF Domestic to serve that market and use Jetstar to serve the lower price market. That way Qantas Group make more money and it has some useful side benfits: strongly discourges another carrier starting up and serves as a warning to other QF staff that no one and no business unit is unreplacable, which is very useful when AWA's are due for renewal.

The big question is can they actually bring it off? Who knows but that is a massive cost base advantage, so unless local politics, market restriance or lack of will power or something else prevents it, it should succede.


Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
elwood64151
Posts: 2410
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2002 10:22 am

RE: JetStar What Is Qantas Thinking?

Sat May 29, 2004 10:09 pm

Jetstar has costs per seat kilometer about 35-45% CHEAPER than QF Domestic! That means that UNLESS the fares recived on QF Domestic are more than 35-45% MORE than what Jetstar recives than the QANTAS Group make MORE MONEY by having people fly Jetstar rather than QF Domestic.

Here's the rub with that statement, and it is the same for all airline-within-an-airline concepts:

Does JetStar operate its own facilities, or are they operated by QF? See, when an airline is started within another airline, they usually try to save costs by having the mainline operations operate the ground operations for the LCC service. The flight crew are usually separate, and the terminal crews could be one or the other, but the ground crews, MX, and all that are usually one-and-the-same.

Now, I'm not aware if JetStar is operated by QF in the ground-services area. However, if it is, then that "35-45%" savings is a bit exaggerated. I don't know what the real savings would be (and there are some savings due to lower wages and probably some increased aircraft utilization), but the figure that the airlines usually quote is usually wrong.

Why? Because the LCC is saving money by piggy-backing on the money-losing legacy system. As the LCC makes more money, the reduced-size legacy carrier has lower revenues, albeit with reduced costs itself. As we saw with CO-Lite, Delta Shuttle, and will probably see again in Song and TED, this almost always hurts the airline more than helps it.

Too bad I didn't sleep well last night. I can't formulate my thoughts as coherently as I'd like.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
qfatwa
Posts: 495
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 1999 5:39 pm

RE: JetStar What Is Qantas Thinking?

Sun May 30, 2004 12:04 pm

Jetstar came out of the shell of Impulse - own cabin crew and maintenance (carried out in Newcastle).

All aircraft start and finish is crew bases (HBA, MEL, SYD, NEWCASTLE = NTL, OOL and BNE) and return there after leg 4 (1.30-3pm) for crew change. Thus crews do not overnight anywhere. All accommodation costs and allowances for crew have been abolished. There is a commision for aircraft food and beverage sales for the cabin crew.

Previously Impulse operations piggybacked off QF check-in and ground handling.

Jetstar have their own check-in & terminal staff in SYD, BNE, CNS, MEL, AVV and in HBA and LST due to incumbent QF staff, Jetstar have commenced with their own people in small numbers and will gradually replace QF people as they retire with jetstar staff.

Ground Handling in CNS, BNE, SYD, MEL and AVV (not sure about HBA & LST) is by a new company "Express Ground Handling" (EGH) dedicated to Jetstar.

 
miami1
Posts: 652
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 10:31 pm

RE: JetStar What Is Qantas Thinking?

Sun May 30, 2004 4:56 pm

"Thus crews do not overnight anywhere..."
Cabin crew ex-SYD are currently doing five day HBAs, four day MELs, four day NTLs and BNE o/nights. BNE crew are doing four day NTLs too. These will last until Nov due to crew numbers.

Management have stated overnights are unavoidable and will continue. Of course their aim is zero overnights - as it has always been. As JQ flies further from crew bases (ASP, AYQ, PER, BME) overnights will have to happen. Jetstar cabin crew have the lowest daily duty limit in the country (9 hours 30 mins). And they won't be giving it up too easily!

Average nights away for SYD cabin crew has been 9-14 per month. Now it is 2-5. So yes they have been reduced however they are unavoidable.

[Edited 2004-05-30 10:16:47]
 
User avatar
solnabo
Posts: 5015
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:53 am

RE: JetStar What Is Qantas Thinking?

Sun May 30, 2004 6:45 pm

I think its absolutley fab that JetStar buys 320, getting rid of this model from the early 60´s, the B717  Laugh out loud
Guess it has to do with that I´m a Airbus-fan  Big thumbs up

Micke//Sorsele
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
Guest

RE: JetStar What Is Qantas Thinking?

Sun May 30, 2004 6:52 pm

In passengers point of few the 717 is the best plane?
So tell me, why? For me the 717 is totally uncomfortable.
So JetStar's A-fleet can't be a mistake  Wink/being sarcastic