ultraviolet
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Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Wed May 26, 2004 7:45 pm

Thomas Cook, the Lufthansa tourism subsidiary wants to start low-frills longhaul flights very soon. They're planning to use the brand "Condor" which was used for Thomas Cook Airlines before.

Following German press Condor wants to fly inside Europe starting at 29 Euro to holiday destinations - but as well fly transatlantic and to Africa starting at 99 Euro.
AFAIK this would be the first no-frills airline flying longhaul...
 
BestWestern
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Wed May 26, 2004 7:52 pm

Just what we need - another low cost german airline.

Long Haul low cost wont work, as current economy fares are already subsidized by premium cabin passengers. Consider how much taxes alone are to the US.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
Andreas
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Wed May 26, 2004 7:52 pm

Do you have any links on that one?

Sounds funny...this would be a direct hit on LH operations, so I wonder..but interesting nonetheless!!
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
godbless
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Wed May 26, 2004 7:54 pm

Well they don't plan that, they have already launched their new website where they promote "shorthauls" (even including destinations such as SHJ!) for as little as 29EUR and longhaul flights starting at 99EUR.
I myself did not see any flights for 29EUR nor for 99EUR though.
http://www2.condor.com/tcf/us/index.jsp

Max
 
graham697
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Wed May 26, 2004 7:57 pm

I hope with the new low fare service, there 767s will grace the skys of TPA again. This time if they advertise maybe they can conjur up some local o&d traffic.
Looking forward to the new AA
 
TriStar500
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Wed May 26, 2004 8:02 pm

It is very nice and wonderful if you sell tickets at low-cost levels, but as long as the production costs of Condor remain as high as they are and losses mount up, they are still going to be shut down by their owners eventually. Like Mr. Teckentrup demanded: "Wages down 30 percent, productivity up 15%". Or was it the other way around?
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
ultraviolet
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Wed May 26, 2004 8:03 pm

Here are some links:

http://www.ftd.de/ub/di/1085376277573.html?nv=hpm
http://www.faz.net/IN/INtemplates/faznet/default.asp?tpl=investor/tool_infoboxticker_meldung.asp&id=1085567428
http://boerse.ard.de/content.jsp?key=dokument_56843
http://www.reuters.de/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=companiesNews&storyID=517674§ion=news


[Edited 2004-05-26 13:09:48]
 
mrniji
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Wed May 26, 2004 8:03 pm

LH intercontinental is almost like low-frill already Big grin
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
ultraviolet
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Wed May 26, 2004 8:19 pm

It looks like most of the DE-flights are offered under the Condor brand now with the low fares... Is this the end of Thomas Cook Airlines?
 
TriStar500
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Wed May 26, 2004 8:23 pm

There never was "Thomas Cook Airlines" in Germany. Flights were always operated by Condor under the Thomas Koch brand.

The slogan "Thomas Koch powered by Condor" will always be remembered as one of the worst marketing blunders in German commercial aviation. And rightfully so!  Big thumbs up
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
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TS-IOR
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Wed May 26, 2004 8:28 pm


Flughafen Koln-Bonn (CGN) will certainely attract these flights as it is said to be a LCC hub for many airlines including the expected North- American one which intends to start low-cost transatlantic flights by 2005...

What i really hope is to see DE returning to Tunisian airports...they are a big mess !!!
 
BestWestern
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Wed May 26, 2004 8:45 pm

With £199 / €250 return low fares between Europe and the US already on full service carriers we already have low fares.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
geizistgeil
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Wed May 26, 2004 9:01 pm

And here is the story from Thomas Cook website:

http://www.thomascook.info/tck/de/en/gnf/0,2773,0-0-1189928,00.html

Former Vacation Airline, than Holiday Airline, now Leisure Airline...good look new (or old, or what?) Condor!



"If the Wright brothers were alive today. Wilbur would have to fire Orville to reduce costs" (H. Kelleher)
 
Ikarus
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Wed May 26, 2004 11:22 pm

$99 is one way.

So, in effect, the "low cost" / "no frills" is just a marketing hype - the prices aren't lower than before. The service may be...

Personally, I wouldn't fly with them unless the prices were significantly lower than they announced.

Regards

Ikarus
 
AV8AJET
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Wed May 26, 2004 11:25 pm

I wonder if they would try getting into the PHX market again...AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA, or maybe even DUS??? Just a thought.

[Edited 2004-05-26 16:26:29]
"To fly or not to fly there is no question!"
 
ramerinianair
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Wed May 26, 2004 11:45 pm

This sounds like what MidwestExpress did. They have A/C with signature service and then saver service. Condor will be taking away from LH if they don't make certain cities only Condor. Midwest Express isn't doing so well last time I checked.
SR
W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
 
richardw
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Thu May 27, 2004 12:04 am

Most cheap fares on Long Haul require a saturday night stay, which are no good for the business traveller, that is where a no frills service would be popular if it offerred fares without such restrictions.
 
L1011aaron
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Fri May 28, 2004 2:25 am

They will have direct competition on the long haul side. Back packers xpress is planning to start up offering services from Munich to Goa, Australia, Africa, India, Thailand and some others with a 742. This will be no frill service too.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Fri May 28, 2004 2:29 am

AFAIK this would be the first no-frills airline flying longhaul...

Not even close.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
manni
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Fri May 28, 2004 4:29 am

Delta's transatlantic economy class has been nearly no-frills for years now.
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
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STT757
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Fri May 28, 2004 4:37 am

Im guessing they would offer flights to destinations LH does not serve, Orlando, Las Vegas, Ft.Lauderdale, Phoenix etc..
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Fri May 28, 2004 5:19 am

Have to side with Crosswind on this one....too many F/J fares subsidising very low economy fares at the moment.....would need to be considerably cheaper to make a success of 29" pitch, no meals, no free IFE and no free beverages...and german charter config. is traditionally more generous than other european states, so there's another dilution of the profit potential.

Shamu
So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
 
emiratesa345
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Fri May 28, 2004 5:26 am

"AFAIK this would be the first no-frills airline flying longhaul..."

Don't forget Zoom Airlines with prices as low as $500 CAD (YYZ-LGW-YYZ).

http://www.zoomairlines.com

EmiratesA345 Smile/happy/getting dizzy
You and I were meant to fly, Air Canada!
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Fri May 28, 2004 5:40 am

Thinking about this one still.........perhaps TC and Condor have finally found a potentially profitable niche for their 753s....... c. 250 seats, roughly 31" pitch, IFE, alcohol and hot meals pay-on-demand............ remember how well (and profitably) the charter carriers World, TransAm, Worldways etc used the super -8s for donkey's years ....?

Shamu
So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
 
snnams
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Fri May 28, 2004 5:47 am

There is absolutely no point in cannabalising your mainline operation by creating a low cost offshoot. Get your main airlines cost's down and offer low fares to all. That is what the vast majority of travellers want and it is the airlines that have realised this eg EI, KL etc that are prospering.
 
hz747300
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Fri May 28, 2004 5:51 am

Wasn't there supposed to be a startup called Backpacker Express? I recall reading that in Airliner World.

It would seem hard to be profitable for long-haul if every seat fell under that low cost structure, then it appears that the total revenue for a flight would be $150-200k lower than one with premium seats. I don't know how an airline would make that work given the eight hour segments.

Should be interesting! If the seats and IFE were like a jetBlue, I would consider it, otherwise I would leave it to college students and hippies.

Keep on truckin'...
 
ltbewr
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Fri May 28, 2004 7:27 am

Mmmmmm, seems like back to the future for LH. Didn't Condor (and LTU) used to be a charter subsidaries of LH at one time? Sound like one-class cattle cars arriving soon. Maybe they are to divert the cheap seaters away from and get better revenue yeild on mainline flights LH popular with business people who are willing to and do pay more than tourists.
 
Sydscott
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Fri May 28, 2004 8:38 am


"There is absolutely no point in cannabalising your mainline operation by creating a low cost offshoot. Get your main airlines cost's down and offer low fares to all. That is what the vast majority of travellers want and it is the airlines that have realised this eg EI, KL etc that are prospering."

I disagree, there is a point in cannabalising but none of the legacy carriers have yet made it work. As for what the vast majority of travellers want, I point you to the Qantas Group with QF mainline, Australian Airlines flying low cost International Services and Jetstar being the no-frills domestic. There is something for everyone.

"Long Haul low cost wont work, as current economy fares are already subsidized by premium cabin passengers. Consider how much taxes alone are to the US."

Wrong, it does work and is profitable. eg Australian Airlines.

"Wasn't there supposed to be a startup called Backpacker Express? I recall reading that in Airliner World."

Yes there was. It is an Australian based carrier but has so far not been awarded flying capacity under the Australia-UK bilateral and is competing with Qantas for those rights. A decision is expected shortly.
 
aa757first
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Fri May 28, 2004 9:27 am

AFAIK this would be the first no-frills airline flying longhaul...

PEOPLExpress?

AAndrew
 
A330Fan1
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Fri May 28, 2004 9:47 am

I don't understand how the airline plans to operate - sounds too good to be true, I mean. Flying such a distance for 99 bucks? How does long-haul, no-frills work!! I just don't understand howcome other airlines have not thought of this idea before? Might be a stupid question, but I really don't understand the methodology and reasoning behind it.

-A330Fan1
 
mucflyer
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Fri May 28, 2004 2:29 pm

Hi

just to clarify... Condor doesn't want to sell all 269 seats on a longhaul B767-300 for 99,-€. They mentioned a minimum low fare capacity on each flight of just 10%. I assume it's a good way to fill up the non sold seats from tour operators.
We will see.

regards
 
fraT
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Fri May 28, 2004 6:12 pm

"Mmmmmm, seems like back to the future for LH. Didn't Condor (and LTU) used to be a charter subsidaries of LH at one time?"

Thomas Cook, the company to which Condor belongs is owned 50 % by LH. They normally don't fly long haul routes also served by LH. SAS said before, they already fly to a lot of destinations in the Caribbean, Florida and Mexico.

LTU was never a subsidiary of LH. There are no ties between the 2 airlines.
 
snnams
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RE: Lufthansa To Start Low-frills Longhaul Airline

Sat May 29, 2004 3:26 am

Sydscott,

You may have a point about none of the legacy carriers having made it work. In the case of Asia/Australia though it is a bit early in the game. Leave it a while until low cost travel has really taken off in the region, and we'll see. Qantas mainline Pax will soon be demanding lower fares along the lines of Australian's fares. You can try any strategy to beat the Loco's: in the end only one will work. If you cant beat em: join em!

Low cost travel in Europe was born here in Ireland with Ryanair. Aerlingus went through all these phases: it first differentiated it's product: "people will pay more because we offer meals, hot towels etc etc" It worked for a short while, until the airline was plunged into crisis. Then instead of backing off from price competition, it stood and fought. I am convinced that what we have seen happen here is exactly what will be seen everywhere else.

Being an island nation, we of course need air travel. It's not a luxury but a neccessity. Having said that, we have the 2nd highest income per head of any state in the EU, so it's not that the Irish are unable to afford the fares charged by legacy carriers. They simply refuse to pay these anymore.

The US, where low cost travel was born in the first place is having a similar experience. The legacies can claim they are still needed in their present form: unfortunatly those that stake this claim are still losing money by the bucketload.